The Heart of Methodism Series | “What Drives Methodism” with Lacey Warner

Shownotes:

This conversation is part of a special series, The Heart of Methodism. Eddie and Chris, who are both pastors in the United Methodist Church, will talk to guests who can help us dive a little deeper into Methodism and its history, theology, traditions, and future.

Today’s guest is Dr. Laceye Warner,  Royce and Jane Reynolds Associate Professor of the Practice of Evangelism and Methodist Studies and Associate Dean for Wesleyan Engagement and Hybrid Programs at Duke University. Dr. Warner is the author of  Saving Women: Retrieving Evangelistic Theology and Practice, The Method of Our Mission: United Methodist Polity and Organization, and co-author of From Relief to Empowerment: How Your Church Can Cultivate Sustainable Mission and Grace to Lead: Practicing Leadership in the Wesleyan Tradition.

Dr. Warner is passionate about supporting, encouraging, and offering resources to pastors and congregations, using the traditions and history of the Methodist movement in England and the United States.

Resources:

Learn more about Dr. Warner’s on her website

The Method of Our Mission: United Methodist Polity & Organization 

Transcript:

Chris McAlilly 00:00 I'm Chris McAlilly.

Eddie Rester 00:02
And I'm Eddie Rester. Welcome to The Weight.

Chris McAlilly 00:04

Today we're talking to Dr. Laceye Warner. Dr. Warner is on the faculty of Duke Divinity School. She's an associate dean of Wesleyan engagement. And she does a lot of things in the Methodist Wesleyan world. And she's a great guest for the series that we're doing right now on the heart of Methodism.

Eddie Rester 00:27

We've got a run of guests who will be talking about the identity of the Methodist movement, who the Methodists are, what they bring to the world, what the vulnerability and weaknesses of the Methodist movement are, and what the hope might be in the Methodist movement in this day, in the 21st century. I'm just fascinated by the guests that we have, but also thankful for Dr. Warner. Laceye and I were at Duke at the same time. She, again, was maybe a year or two ahead of me, but like most of the folks in the classes with me were much more... How do I say this

Chris McAlilly 01:04
She's ahead of you in a lot of ways.

Eddie Rester 01:06

In a lot of ways, just a lot of ways. She's an ordained pastor as well. She's going to talk about her call story and also women in the Methodist movement. But just thankful for her and her faithfulness and her willingness to really help us dig into what is it about this movement? How did it start? How does it endure?

Chris McAlilly 01:28

I was appreciative of some of the things that she mentioned. One of the things she says is that Methodism forms not... Forms out of missional imperative, not out of a fight about doctrine or about church disputes. I thought that was interesting. So it was responsiveness to what the Spirit was doing in that day and time. What else struck you about the conversation?

Eddie Rester 01:54

You know, I think, as we got deeper into the conversation, I really appreciated just sometimes the depth of someone's understanding of the movement. You know, it's been a long time since I've been to seminary. And I know for a lot of our listeners that are like, I don't know that much about it, or they went through confirmation a billion years ago, or they, you know, they're just interested. And so having someone who lives and breathes in the space and can tell the stories, and how it has impacted her own story, I think is important for us to hear. I think we're going to hear a lot of that, as we have these conversations.

Chris McAlilly 02:33
So this is going to be a special run of episodes. We'll release them on Mondays. And so if you've stumbled on to this, and you're like," Oh, my goodness, what is this?"

Eddie Rester 02:41
"I thought it was Thursdays." That's right.

Chris McAlilly 02:42

Yeah, so just know our regular run of episodes will run on Thursdays, and we won't be doing this inside baseball conversation. But it's an important moment in Methodism, in the American context, and we want to be in conversation with some of the smartest and most thoughtful people that we can find about that. And we want to help you understand what's going on if you are a part of the Methodist tradition or denomination. Or if you're like, "What the heck's going on with the Methodists?" You know, "I want to learn a little bit more about that." By the end of talking to Laceye, though, you have to be careful, because you might want to be a Methodist. Right? Right, Eddie? That's right. Yeah.

Eddie Rester 02:45

That's right. She helps us see clearly in a way that sometimes even pastors forget what is good and faithful and hopeful about the work that the Methodists have done in the world through the years. So I'm excited about this series. I think I'm gonna learn a lot and maybe even remember some things.

Chris McAlilly 03:46

No doubt. The thing I'll end on is simply this, that what it means to be Methodist, really, is what it means to be a faithful Christian, you know, regardless of denomination. I mean, that was one of the things I remembered, is it just is getting back to the heart of what's going on in the Gospel of Luke and the Acts of the Apostles, and try our level best to line up our love of God with love of neighbor. So we're glad that you've joined us today. It's good to talk to you, Eddie. And really enjoyed talking to Laceye as well. Hope you enjoy the episode. And if you do, like it, share it, leave us a review. [INTRO] Life can be heavy. So heavy, in fact that the weight we carry can sometimes cause us to lose hope.

Eddie Rester 04:30
But we've all come across those people in life who seem to be experiencing the same world we live in, except they maintain a great depth of joy and hope.

Chris McAlilly 04:39
A former generation called this gravitas. It was their description of a soul that had gained enough weightiness to be attractive like all things with a gravitational pull.

Eddie Rester 04:50
Those are the people we want to talk to. On this podcast, we talk to pastors, entrepreneurs, artists, mental health experts, and many others.

Chris McAlilly 05:00

We'll create space for heavy topics, but we'll be listening for a quality of soul that could be called gravitas.

Eddie Rester 05:07

Welcome to The Weight. [END INTRO] Well, we're here today with Dr. Laceye Warner. She is the Associate Dean of Wesleyan Engagement at Duke University. Laceye, thank you for joining us today.

Laceye Warner 05:19 Thank you for having me.

Eddie Rester 05:20
Now, we crossed paths back in the dark ages at Duke, in the days of Hauerwas and Wainwright and some of those folks. So it's good to reconnect with you today.

Laceye Warner 05:32
Good to reconnect with you and to talk about old and new things.

Eddie Rester 05:36

Yeah. Well, tell us a little bit just about your work. You've written a lot about Methodist polity. You're involved in doing a lot of writing around kind of Methodist life and history. So help us I know you've got a lot of projects coming up as far as, so sketch out for folks a little bit just kind of about what you do and what your heart is within the Methodist work right now.

Laceye Warner 06:03

Sure. My main goal, objective, is to create support, encouragement, and resources for pastors, and in turn, then congregations. So I want the Wesleyan movement and the energy and innovation and the scripture-centeredness of that movement to be alive and well today and then into the future. So that's what I try to do in the midst of writing polity textbooks. So polity textbook doesn't necessarily evoke, you know, riveting images. But in writing the polity textbook, "The Method of Our Mission," I wanted to give our students and candidates across the connection, whether in degree programs or local licensing schools or as local pastors in courses of study to have a guide that was accessible, and that taps into the strength and energy of the tradition.

Eddie Rester 07:05

And going all the way back to John Wesley, who was part of the founding of the movement in England. He was... I mean, we were called Methodists because he was methodical. There was a way that things worked for him. And that's part of our long heritage is there's a way that things work. And there's a way that things don't work. So yeah, so I'm thankful that you're helping folks with that.

Chris McAlilly 07:07

When you, you know, for folks who may be just not familiar with the way in which the Methodist Church is structured and organized, and I'm finding that this is a lot of Methodists, they don't, I mean, people that have grown up and kind of found their way into a Methodist Church at some point. What is distinctive about the way it's organized?

Laceye Warner 08:01

Primarily distinctive about how we're organized and how we came to be, our origin story, is that we did not form out of a fight. We didn't form out of conflict over disagreements over doctrine. We formed out of missional imperative. So John Wesley was very persistent. He went to all of his bishop friends and read and read. He tried and tried for the early Methodist movement, particularly those that had gone over to the colonies, the early United States, for them to be affirmed and ordained within the Church of England. But with the Revolutionary War, that wasn't in the cards. So we formed out of a missional imperative. That's unique. And in the midst of that, it was a strong commitment to biblical mission and theological consistency around how we believe in God and how our beliefs in God shaped our practices, that it's held so tightly together. So I just traveled to England. And in preparation, I read, of course I read John Wesley sermons, which isn't quite Rick Steves, but it was good. So I was tracing where John Wesley preached, what he preached, and what was going on in the area. And he is immensely responsive and proactive. And so I think those three pieces, if you follow me, that we formed out of a missional imperative, not out of a fight; that our doctrine, our beliefs, and our practices are just intimately tied together, like, they're really, really tight; and our founder and the movement into particularly in the United States, and even in the 21st century, is responsive. So we see people around us. We minister together to work with and we're involved, not just in individuals and communities, but in system.

Chris McAlilly 10:05

Were you a cradle Methodist? Is that? Did you grow up in the tradition? Or did you come to it? And then if you were a cradle Methodist, why did you choose to stay? Why didn't you go be Catholic or go be Anglican or go be Presbyterian or nondenominational or something else?

Laceye Warner 10:22

Oh, gosh, that is such a good question. Okay. Hold me accountable to time and my feelings. Because I don't tend to live in my feelings. I tend to live in logic and thought, because that's what I do. Okay, so me as a primary source, I'm a cradle Methodist. I was confirmed in the Methodist Church in Cocoa Beach, Florida. My dad was working for GE under contract with NASA. My mom was homemaker, and my parents were unlikely, an unlikely couple. My mother, I'm just gonna go for it. Like, my mother is double DAR, which some of you will know what that means. Just know that deeply Southern and comes from Baptist background, but there was a relative that was Methodist, German Methodist, that goes back to the Revolutionary War. My dad's family, he was third generation, two and a half generation, without papers, Italian and culturally Catholic. Did not practice, not a practicing Catholic. I have some family that practiced Catholicism. So I almost was sent to Catholic school, but not. And I was very active, because somebody invited me into a United Methodist youth group. But my parents went to Methodist Church sort of out of compromise, and to stay in relationship with my mom's family. Right? So there's all these like, instead of owning to all the details, but that was a lot. There are lots of layers, lots of layers. So being invited into communities that were consistent with, not just the identity that I had been given, but then also a fit--like a fit that the the theology and the beliefs made sense to me. And then, you didn't ask this, but my call to ministry came in East Texas, on a week-long work camp out, like against child labor laws. Like, the United Methodist Action reached out... and I was, it was my 16th birthday, and I am cleaning up stuff that... We were helping people, and I was dirty, dirty and helping, helping and I all of a sudden at this camp... I had heard lovely sermons, and I'd gone to Sunday School and sang great songs and played games at youth group. But this was the moment where I thought, "Oh. Love of God and love of neighbor, all together at once." And it just, it made sense. And it clicked, and I didn't know that it was a call to ministry necessarily. But I knew that that's what I wanted to do with all my time and then a youth counselor helped discern, and we're still friends. So I'm cradle Methodist. And I chose, both because of invitation and because of fit.

Chris McAlilly 13:17

That's so great. Thank you so much for sharing. I wish that there was a way--I know Eddie wants to jump in--I wish there was a way to get at the number of people that end up in Methodism, because somebody grew up Baptist and somebody grew up Catholic, and they found their way to Methodism as kind of really a middle ground or kind of a compromise to make everybody's family happy. I just think there are a lot of people like that. I wish we could identify the exact number because I know that there are a lot.

Eddie Rester 13:47

It's high. My family we were raised Catholic and ended up in a town without a Catholic church. And the entire theological decision of my family was when people invited us to the Methodist Church, the United Methodist Church, the preacher wore a robe. There were candles. We said the Apostles' Creed every week. And apparently that was enough theologically for us to make the jump.

Chris McAlilly 14:13
The Creed, the Creed's good.

Eddie Rester 14:14 The Creed's good.

Laceye Warner 14:15

The Creed is good. Yeah.

Eddie Rester 14:18

And you're also, I don't want to leave this out. You're also an ordained United Methodist elder in the Texas conference. So part of the question that Chris asked as well was, so why for you, particularly if you had some other backgrounds, why have you stayed United Methodist? Why has that tribe, why has our tribe of Methodism, continued to call you and excite you about your faith and continue to grow you in your faith? What's been that piece that's held you there?

Laceye Warner 14:58

I think the importance as a kernel to this, or as a center, is that notion of holding together love of God and love of neighbor in authentic and comprehensive ways. So the theology and the practice, what we believe and what we do, in worship and outside the building, it all goes together. And so if we dig deeper into that, when you talked about your family's looking for particular aspects of worship, upon going to undergrad and participating in another local church, and seeing similarities, and then in seminary, realizing those patterns were a part of ancient practices. Right? So when we talk about what sort of pieces are important in communion, and what does baptism mean, and how are vocations all of us as baptized members of the Body of Christ is unpacked, there's something about Methodism that holds together so many pieces from Christian tradition that are rich and instructive and guide us. And the, I wouldn't say essentials, but the pieces... So Methodist has this way, Methodism has this way of not leaving important things out. And so there's a part of me that is drawn to Catholicism, the rituals and practice, but I don't have necessarily relationships, right. So, but the relationships that God put in my path and drew me into a personal relationship with Jesus, and in the midst of a body of Christ, were Methodist, and in that then, I received a call to ministry, which I wasn't sure about. Like, I had never seen a woman ordained, never talked to one. And I was the first woman to candidate for ordained ministry as an elder from my local church. And the sense that there wasn't, like, a parade that was happening. There was more like, "Really? Really? Are you sure about that?" I was like, "Well, I want to teach." You know, I feel called to teach. I feel called to teach, and I can do that in a local congregation setting. But I do feel called to sacraments and to proclamation. So I'm just trying to kind of figure all this out. And so to be pulled and guided, to have a sense of internal but also external call. There's a sense that we don't always choose our home, but our home chooses us, and then we live within the midst of that. So yeah.

Chris McAlilly 17:57

Yeah, I think one of the things that is distinctive about Methodism as a denomination, and this goes all the way back to the early Methodist movement in 18th century, is that there were women who were invited into the work in a formal way. And that's not, I mean, certainly that's, you know, it took the United Methodist Church a very long time to get to a point where the ordination of women was a part of the tradition. But, you know, Wesley was... I mean, there's initial imperative to early Methodism, that's really kind of Great Commission oriented, where there are these people who are moving from one place to another, you know, people moving from an agrarian to an industrial economy, and you have all these people coming to Bristol, coming to Newcastle, coming to London, and there literally just weren't enough preachers. There weren't enough. I mean, or kind of the typical structures of the Church of England at the time were not positioned and structured in such a way to meet the deep spiritual needs. And in response to that, one of, among many things that the early Methodists did, one of them was to authorize women for preaching and teaching. I'm sure that's an important part of, that history is important part of what draws you to the tradition as well. But I wonder if you maybe would speak a little bit more about that.

Laceye Warner 19:27

Oh, absolutely. Yes. So the early Methodist movement, with John Wesley sort of considering the possibility of additional preachers that are beyond the ordained, it started with lay persons. So, Thomas Maxfield. And there's this exchange with Susanna, his mother. And, he says something like, you know, "I see Thomas has turned preacher, I find," and she says, Susanna says to John, "He's just as called of God as you are," and "look for an extraordinary call and fruit." And so that rationale for opening up the possibilities for leadership within the early Methodist revival movement was to create accessibility for lay people, that then, in John's incredibly rational way, then also created room for women. And Susanna wasn't quiet on that necessarily, right. Like whether or not we have letters from Susanna on this, she certainly was a role model in preaching and gathering the church community in her kitchen, in her home, when Samuel, the father, was away for various activities, some scholarly, some participating in Christian formation, early small groups and the Church of England. But then also, you know, he was a little... He had trouble with money, and spent some time incarcerated for debt. And she... He fussed at her for almost holding church in the house. And she said, "Well," you know...

Eddie Rester 21:21 You're not here.

Laceye Warner 21:23

Yeah, "if you'd take care of things and be here like you're supposed to," like, "I wouldn't have to do that." So John, even though he's not home necessarily all the time, right, like he goes away to school at 11. He has this wonderful role model in his mother, and then he is fair. And there's a parity about his awareness of people's vocations and their gifts. And the early Methodist movement, there are some statistics that demonstrate that the majority of participants--and then that also translates somewhat into leadership--but that it was mostly women and youth, women and young people. And so to think about the possibilities of Christian movement, right, like Christian gatherings, if we spend more time thinking about well, who has gifts, rather, instead of who fits the categories of what we expect and who we expect to have gifts, it's quite an upside down possibility.

Chris McAlilly 22:21

Yeah. And then he formalizes this at the very end of his life. I mean, there are a range of things that he's doing from about 1785 until 1794. So I mean, he writes William Wilberforce, pressing the case to end slavery in 1791. 1786 he endorses this missionary plan. And he welcomes a woman named Sarah Mallet into the connection as a preacher, the first officially sanctioned Methodist preacher in Methodism. So, you know, this isn't just some 20th century kind of women's liberation movement of which then Methodism is a cultural expression of something going on in the culture. I mean, this goes back. It's a deep theological conviction about the work of the Holy Spirit and the movement of Christ in a particular place, the way in which God can get on a mission that breaks down certain structures and builds them up again. And you know, I think that's... I don't know. And there's a responsiveness to the Holy Spirit, but it comes out of a deep, deep... I don't know, I guess immersion, both in the Bible and in primitive Christianity, as he would call it, as John Wesley would call it. Kind of a, you know, it's almost like Acts, the Apostolic Church reborn. It's like Acts again in England or something. I don't know. But one of the things that happens within that is that women get endorsed for important leadership roles in the movement.

Laceye Warner 23:58

They do. If I could add on a bit. On one hand, John Wesley is a tremendous encourager. He's empowering women, and people, to take on roles according to their vocations and gifts. And he listens, which is really important, right, like listening. He listens to Mary Bosanquet when she says, you know, "I feel called to preach. Here's a rationale for it." And she's asking advice and for affirmation, which he gives. But he, but John Wesley, on the one hand, I think it's important to say that he doesn't just open wide the gates and say, "Oh, all the women come in," you know, "All." He's careful. He's within a heavily structured institution of the Church of England, and he has all sorts of social privilege, which he, I think, he uses very he wisely. Like, he does take risks. And he takes risks on behalf of folks that are marginalized or not as empowered. But the Methodists weren't Quakers. Right? So, and I see that as a strength. So instead of going sort of off on one's own way to... which, I actually appreciate the Society of Friend, but there's a distance from the mainstream.

Eddie Rester 25:28 Right.

Laceye Warner 25:28

Which is important and intentional and has its own role and calling. Methodism is a bit grittier because it's in the midst of politics and economics and trends and debates and all sorts of possibilities, but all sorts of risks and challenges. And so Mary Bosanquet is, I think, is an important role model. She is invited to preach all over, but then she decides, "no, wait, I don't necessarily want to preach to thousands of people under a tree," you know, which, there's all sorts of things to talk about with that. But she says, but rather, "I want to create." She takes the money that she's inherited, which is a modest sum, and she establishes a small, intentional community with a number of other women, including Sarah Crosby, Sarah Ryan, and these folks predate or come along with Sarah Mallet. And they're also preaching and teaching and they care for children, vulnerable, orphans, and infirm persons who can't take care of themselves. So she chooses to focus on three or four dozen folks in an intimate and sort of highly intense way, rather than going for a public profile. And there's all sorts of characters, or figures with all sorts of characteristics within the movement. And Sarah Mallet is an important one, and I appreciate you mentioning her because she is official, and on the preaching plan, as we say.

Eddie Rester 27:08

I want us to... We've talked about a lot of different threads in the movement, particularly early on, and I want us to pull back just for a few minutes. And as you think about kind of all those threads we've talked about: the missional imperative, John Wesley's openness to people in his day who would have had, as his mom said, had an extraordinary call, as we talked just a little bit there about care for orphans and widows. As you think about the Methodist movement's distinctives that still drive us today, what would, how would you answer that? What's our distinctive as a tribe, as a movement? What is it about us that's important to note and to know?

Laceye Warner 27:55
Okay, so there's probably all sorts of ways to answer this, to be, to have more of a sound bite.

I'm not really a sound bite person.

Eddie Rester 28:02
No, no, that's okay. We don't... We would rather have conversation than sound bites. So, yeah.

Laceye Warner 28:07

Okay, so I've been working on a little article. And I'm just, I'm convinced that we have layers, and that it's important that we have these interdependent layers. So, you know, maybe some churches or congregations are going to say, Oh, we have spiritual formation, or, you know, personal devotion, or we have social justice and advocacy. And for many decades, as I was teaching, like, that was the choice, right? Do you go this way or do you go that way? And for Methodism, it's a both-and, and they're layers. So the personal relationship is influenced and fed by small group covenants and formation, so like the classes and bands. And then there's the worshiping community that gathers, which is a witness in itself. But we're also involved in all sorts of community innovation that doesn't just meet the needs in a charitable way. So we talk about works of piety, works of charity, which, but it goes beyond that into influencing systems of injustice or of depravity. So that while Wesley and Oxford with his colleagues were visiting incarcerated, working with vulnerable and orphans, children, widows, folks who are destitute, and addressing those needs in a kind of relief oriented way, at Londen and the boundary and now if you see throughout our denominational structure, we have all sorts of activities that microfinance and this was in London in the 1740s. So microfinance and health care, and United... So I'm gonna jump. Okay. So in the United States in the 19th century, do you know who was one, after the Catholics, which, great job, who started perhaps the next most number of hospitals and institutions of higher education? The Methodists. So looking deep into the archives of hospitals, particularly in major cities across the South, Mid Atlantic and Midwest, if they're not deaconesses, they're missionaries or they're churches, and they're Methodists that have started so many hospitals. The hospital in Evanston was started by, Evanston, Illinois, was started by deaconesses.

Eddie Rester 30:46

One of the things, as you talked about layers, and that's a great way to think about it. One of the things I thought about was a church when I was in field ed at Duke, and they would send you out to a church to work in. And I worked at a church my first year at Duke, in Raleigh, North Carolina. It wasn't United Methodist, but it was a church that worked with people on the margins. They had a lot of... The pastor one time said, "We have a lot of former hippies that want to do social good in the world, who end up here." And she said, "But once they get interested in the Bible, they become Methodists. Because they do a better job of joining that kind of work in the world to the Word of God." And so I think that is. And she recognized it, the pastor at this church, that that was one of the gifts of our tribe, of the Methodist movement.

Laceye Warner 30:46

So this the empowerment of people to follow their extraordinary calls and that support then has led to all kinds of impact and innovation in communities and across the country, which I think that's unique. It's not that we're alone, you know, like, other congregations also. But okay, so one more piece about the higher education. So at one point, we had hundreds, three hundred, institutions of higher education. And the University Senate, which is an accrediting body within the Methodist Church, is one of the oldest, if not the oldest, accrediting body of education in the United States. So that's before the Department of Ed. That's before the region's... So we're going back a long, long time, and the roots of medical care, education, and economic empowerment are there in London and Bristol and Newcastle, in the 1700s.

Eddie Rester 31:50

But, you know, one of the things that I am pondering and think about is that, you know, one of the things that's really distinctive about Methodism at the beginning, is that it is this explosive, renewal movement. There's this energy and vitality and vibrancy and growth and it's numerical growth. And John Wesley was very much concerned about the numbers dimension of this. And it just, you know, there's almost like this deep cognitive dissonance in the American context, that's both within Methodism, but it's a broader American Protestant issue. And it's, beyond that, it's religion and American life is on the decline. And so there's this dissonance between this generative identity at the beginning of who this particular expression of Christianity is meant to be, and then kind of the cultural moment that we live in. And so I wonder, I don't know. How do you read those dimensions and how they're playing themselves out in terms of, I guess, how people are choosing to engage the moment now?

Laceye Warner 34:04

I appreciate that phrase around "cognitive dissonance." But there is something that separates our desire, those of us who are believers and active in any kind of church, but maybe particularly mainline denominations, and the decline across the country of people's interest or, particularly mainline denominations, and the decline across the country of people's interest or, you know, affinity or even awareness. Wasn't there something recently where... Was it? Okay, you're gonna have to cut this probably. But it's not Trivial Pursuit, what is the... Jeopardy! Jeopardy and nobody knew the Lord's Prayer. And I think "Oh, my goodness." Like, how does that happen? Because when we were in England in the 90s When Princess Diana Spencer died, and you know, everybody knew the Lord's Prayer, like everyone out in Hyde Park, you know, that secularization, like that's it, so cognitive dissonance. But what I find then on the ground and I'm guilty of this. So I'm preaching to myself, please don't, you know, take this in an offensive way, but I preach to myself. And so we were living in this little rural Texas town. And you know, the churches are small, except for the Baptist, the Roman Catholics, like everybody else is an outsider. And I found myself, this is another story. But I found myself at a bar, like a real bar, not a bougie bar. This was a real Texas, gritty bar. And visiting a friend. It was a neighbor. She had bought this bar during the pandemic. I was very proud of her for being a woman entrepreneur. And people gathered around, and within a few hours, we had a Bible study planned. And I was fielding questions just as fast as I could, about God, and sin and evil and grief, and church and exclusion. And none of these folks had been in a church in decades. They didn't feel welcome. They felt like they had been kicked out and they were desperately hungry. They just wanted any kind of information, any kind of guidance. And so over the next six months and year, I gave away Bibles, I baptize people in our pool, we served communion to people, just tears, just weeping, weeping. And every, all these folks had experienced more of life than anyone should ever have to. So they worked. There was some instability. There was some excitement, like it wasn't necessarily all smooth sailing, but it was all worth it. And I learned so much. And we read Luke-Acts. And we learned about the lectionary and the liturgical year and we did all kinds of mission work. I mean, it was all from them. And I think, you know, so they were invited to churches. We invited them to the Methodist Church. And while we were preaching as interim pastors, some folks came, but it's just so hard to have that spirit of Susanna and John, where, if there's an extraordinary call, it doesn't matter what you look like, how you talk, how you dress. And I mean how you talk, like, my daughter learned a lot of profanity, watching the little kids. She's like, "What does this mean?" I'm like, "Oh, my goodness, we'll talk about that later." So there was risk involved, and there are some things I wish I'd done differently. But it's really hard to invite people into the church when they have really good reasons to not feel welcome there. And so can we get beyond the church? Can we get beyond ourselves? And can we really follow the Holy Spirit and have some community? That's in the details of John Wesley's letters and journals, but sometimes we just put it aside for respectability.

Chris McAlilly 38:10

I wonder, so that gets to the question of weakness, you know. I think that's something that both Eddie and I have on our minds. And, you know, what I hear in that, I think in part, is that, once a movement becomes a church, and it has a structure, and it has, you know, a whole book about how it's supposed to be organized, then you kind of lose some of the nimbleness and the ability to be entrepreneurial and some of those things, but I guess it either within the tradition itself, the theological tradition, or within the way it expresses itself on the ground in the American context, right now, what are some of the weaknesses that you see? I'll throw out one that I see: workaholism. Like, I feel like Methodism sets us up to become workaholics in some ways, you know. Tthere's this sense of... And that's not an original thought, that's, you know, I heard Billy Abraham say that at one point. And it's like, that is absolutely true. I see a bunch of folks that are working their tails off and then burn out. So that's one that can be a potential weakness if you're working to become perfect in Christian love. But, and I think that's inherent in some of Wesley's theological distinctiveness, but what are some of the others that you might see?

Laceye Warner 39:30

At the moment, I'm concerned about our structure and organization. We had for many years, many decades, building from John Wesley, you know, just a tight strategy with a modest or humble, like a selfless sense of... Maybe let me do this. Let me do that way, a different way. But the mission of the church drove our structure. And I think we want that to happen. But because of the difficulties and the challenges on the landscape, some really hard decisions need to be made. And I, I'm not saying which decision I want made, I just want any decision made, right? Like just any kind of movement that is responsive. And the spirit of early Methodism, we were so agile, we were so responsive, we were so active. And I feel like we've been put back on our heels and there's some really good reasons for that, and life cycles happen. So how can we get off our heels and lean forward? And we don't have to do everything right. We don't have to be workaholics or pelagian. I always say like, I'm a recovering pelagian, but so was John Wesley. Can we do anything? Right, like, I don't want to overdo it. But can we strategically think about our mission and respond in a thoughtful and really financially responsible way? Because I think, just to sum up, I think we have a vulnerability and being perceived as having so many financial and other kinds of capital resources, but then not actively using them. And I don't think that puts anyone on the spot, it just says to all of us, "Oh, that's right." Like, my self perception may not be the same as the external perception. And then can we live into following our mission and vocation as a denomination?

Eddie Rester 41:49

I think the vulnerability that I see at this stage, as you talk about the lifecycle of institutions, is that institutions eventually get to a place where they want to protect themselves, that it becomes a cycle of, well, we can't do that, because that would damage this part of what we say we do or want to do. I was on a restructuring group years ago. And we came up with this really tight plan. And then at the very end, a bishop came in and said, "but we can't let go of these things that aren't in the plan. So how do we add those back in to the plan?" So I think that's one of the things that any older institute, whether it's a local church, annual conference, denomination has to figure out. Lacey, let's let's shift the conversation to something better. What is hopeful for you right now? What do you see in the movement that gives you joy, or gives you life, or gives you kind of this look around the corner?

Laceye Warner 42:53

There are several. There are several. And so what first comes to mind there is that people are still answering calls to ministry, whether ordained, lay, doing something that seems irrational, but incredibly faithful. And that gives me so much hope and so much energy, and you know, I just want to come alongside and plant the vineyard in the place that's most unlikely and to see God's fruit prevail. So people answering calls. Kids, young people. I have an 11 year old. And there's lots of things that she questions and she critiques. But she's not wrong. But she's still engaged. Right? Like she's still... You know, folks are still showing up, even if it's not quite right. Or there are things to learn or things to improve, but people still show up, and I think that's the Holy Spirit, that's that compelling by the Holy Spirit. And so let's keep working and keep praying and studying the scriptures and practicing together. So young people, people calling, sorry, receiving calls, answering those calls to ministry, and churches just getting outside their comfort zone.

Chris McAlilly 44:26

I feel like where I get really excited is when you see something happen that is surprising, that is a response, clearly a response to the work of God's spirit in some way. And that happens. It's hard to see that at times at scale and within the context of a denominational system, but it happens a fair amount on the ground when I allow myself to pay attention to it. And I really appreciated just the anecdotal example at the bar where you were visiting your friend, and just, yeah. I think that's... It, you know, doesn't have to be that generative in terms of it then becomes a kind of, I don't know, an expression of early Methodism, again. It can be very simple. I mean, but it tends to be something organic. And it's like, "Wait, I've seen this before. I've seen something like this before. I know what this is," you know. And so, you know, I think I really appreciate some of the things that you've written. And then, also, just your continued desire to kind of, as you sai, before, encourage, support pastors as they seek to not only tend the flock, and kind of figure out how to work with the resources they have on the ground in whatever their local setting is, but also just remembering the story, you know, remembering kind of the heartbeat. Because I do think that there's something there. And I don't know. I long for the mission to drive the structure, you know. That's something worth praying for.

Eddie Rester 46:12

Absolutely. And I love what you said about your daughter's still engaged. It doesn't have to be perfect. I think sometimes we think that we have to get everything right before God can do anything. And sometimes it's just about holding the tension of what we know isn't quite right or we're not sure about to allow the Spirit to do what only the Spirit can do. And so I appreciate that, what you're learning from your daughter in this moment.

Chris McAlilly 46:42

I also think, you know, just, I don't know why this, it didn't have to be perfect, I think. And, you know, we're gonna learn things along the way. It made me think about one of my favorite parts of the whole story of John Wesley is when he goes to Georgia and fails. Like, his first whole attempt at being a missionary was a complete disaster, you know, on multiple levels, and he got run out of town.

Eddie Rester 47:07

On every level. Every level. When we taught confirmation this year to a group of eighth graders to seniors, and in the follow up, what was your favorite lesson, what was the biggest thing you learned? Almost all of them said, "John Wesley was a failure."

Chris McAlilly 47:26
Yeah, it's so helpful to remember that because I think it kind of frees you up. Because on the other side of that failure is ultimately when things began to pick up steam for him.

Laceye Warner 47:39

Even though he's still--not to belabor this--but throughout his life, he doubted his salvation. He doubted his accomplishments or his priorities. Like, was he doing the right thing? Did he do it in the right way? And here we are looking back. But he was able to do, even if his self perception wasn't completely accurate, is that he could get out of the way of the Holy Spirit, and he could go with it. And we have... We have. And so not only do we have the Holy Spirit, but we have each other, and Wesley's brilliance and persistence to be so compulsive about organization and connecting all these pieces and layers, I think is such a gift to Methodism, then and now.

Chris McAlilly 48:30
Yeah. Get out of the way of the Holy Spirit and lean towards one another. Those are two good words to end on. Thank you so much Laceye. Really appreciate your time today.

Laceye Warner 48:38 Thank you.

Eddie Rester 48:40

It's been really great and blessings on all that you have in front of you. I know you have a lot of projects coming up. So thank you for your persistence and your dedication to pastors and to the tribe and all that you have in front of you. Thank you.

Laceye Warner 48:54
Oh, you're welcome. Well, I appreciate all this time and consideration, the project that you have. This is really important and it encourages people regularly. So thank you.

Eddie Rester 49:05
[OUTRO] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, the best way to help us is to like, subscribe, or leave a review.

Chris McAlilly 49:13

If you would like to support this work financially or if you have an idea for a future guest, you can go to theweightpodcast.com. [END OUTRO]