“The Connection” with Bishop Sharma Lewis

Shownotes:

Eddie and Chris continue a conversation about Methodism and what drives it with their resident Bishop Sharma Lewis. Bishop Lewis’s assignment in Mississippi began in January 2023, and she comes to the state with excitement and passion for the people of Mississippi and what is in their hearts. Despite being in a season of disaffiliation and fragmentation, Bishop Lewis sees great things happening in the Mississippi Annual Conference, with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Bishop Lewis is from Statesboro, Georgia. Before hearing God’s call in her life, she pursued degrees in biology and chemistry with an eye towards medicine. She eventually switched paths and earned her M.Div.  from Gammon Interdenominational Theological Center in 1999, and worked in the North Georgia Conference of the United Methodist Church. She was the first African American woman to be elected bishop in the Southeastern Jurisdiction, and served the past six years in the Richmond area of the Virginia Annual Conference.

Transcript:

Eddie Rester 00:00
I'm Chris McAlilly. And I'm Eddie Rester. Welcome to The Weight.

Chris McAlilly 00:04

Today we're talking to Bishop Sharma Lewis, who is the resident bishop in the United Methodist Church in the Mississippi Annual Conference, which is where we're located and rooted. And this conversation is a part of a series we're doing on the heart of Methodism.

Eddie Rester 00:18

Bishop Lewis has been in Mississippi just for a few months. She arrived in January of 2023. Before that, she had sort of six years in the Virginia Annual Conference. She was elected--we elect bishops in the Methodist Church, in case you didn't know that--the South Georgia Conference, and so she has moved around the southeast. She has led the church through the COVID season in Virginia, and is now leading the church right now through a season of disaffiliations in our denomination. And she brings to the conversation energy. She brings to the conversation a deep well of faith. And she brings to the conversation vision for what the church can be. Chris, what struck you today about what Bishop Lewis had to say?

Chris McAlilly 01:03

The heart of Methodism for her is rooted in the work of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit's work is among men and women. It's among the educated and the uneducated. Ultimately, it moves the people of God out in service of other people and to the ends of the earth. And so yeah, I mean, I think that's probably the thing that I'll... I mean, this is... You're talking to a person who, you know, believes that there's a living God, and that is actively seeking to listen in the hearts of people, to what God is doing now, not just what God did in a previous generation. So I guess in that regard, I guess the heart of Methodism for her that I hear is just a living gospel, and the power of the Holy Spirit to kind of set in motion, you know, possibilities that we might not have thought of before. What about you?

Eddie Rester 02:05

Yeah, I think just for me, it's hearing her passion and her energy, from the very first time that I met her. She's a bishop with a pastor's heart, but also a vision for the local church. And I very much appreciate that about her. It's rooted in the connection. And we talked a little bit about what that means, what that looks like. Again, I think, sometimes the word "connection" gets lost in a lot of conversations, but the importance of that, and what that actually looks like as it's lived out. So be sure to share it with those who you think would be encouraged or maybe even learn something from it. Love to hear from you. Always leave us a comment. Send us an email. Let us know what this means to you.

Chris McAlilly 02:50
Thanks for being with us on The Weight. [INTRO] Life can be heavy. So heavy, in fact that the weight we carry can sometimes cause us to lose hope.

Eddie Rester 03:00
But we've all come across those people in life who seem to be experiencing the same world we live in, except they maintain a great depth of joy and hope.

Chris McAlilly 03:09
A former generation called this gravitas. It was their description of a soul that had gained enough weightiness to be attractive, like all things with a gravitational pull.

Eddie Rester 03:20
Those are the people we want to talk to. On this podcast, we talk to pastors, entrepreneurs, artists, mental health experts, and many others.

Chris McAlilly 03:30
We'll create space for heavy topics, but we'll be listening for a quality of soul that could be called gravitas.

Eddie Rester 03:37

Welcome to The Weight. [END INTRO] We're here today with Bishop Sharma Lewis. Bishop Lewis is the Bishop of the Mississippi Annual Conference of the United Methodist Church, which means she's our bishop. Bishop, welcome to The Weight today.

Sharma Lewis 03:52
Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.

Eddie Rester 03:54

Yeah. Tell us a little bit about yourself. We know some of your history. But where'd you grow up? Did you grow up United Methodist? When did you become United Methodist? So just give us a little background about you.

Sharma Lewis 04:07

Well, first of all, I am from the South. I like to say that. I'm proud of that. I'm from originally Statesboro, Georgia. And if you remember the band Allman Brothers, they wrote the song the Statesboro Blues. I'm from that city. Also, that city has become known as Georgia Southern University and have become champions, and they were champions in the football with Erk Russell. We were able to recruit Erk Russell from the University of Georgia. I don't know if I have any Georgia fans out there. But from the University of Georgia and then when Erk Russell was recruited, he put Statesboro back on the map. So it was on the map with the Allman Brothers and then it was back on the map with Erk Russell in Georgia Southern.

Eddie Rester 04:22 That's right.

Sharma Lewis 04:58

I am a, I like to tell people I'm a cradle Methodist. I was baptized at six months old. And my church is Brannen Chapel United Methodist Church. And what is interesting is that Bishop James Swanson, who also served here, who I know very well, was my pastor when I was 13 years old. And so Brannen Chapel had been blessed to have two bishops. One that served and one that was a member who is now serving on the council. So I've been a cradle Methodist, all my life. Raised at Brannen, learned all about confirmation then the church at Brannen. And, and excited. I'm still excited, as I tell people, about my Methodist roots. I ran for the episcopacy in 2016, and got elected, and was very blessed to be the first African American woman elected in the Southeastern Jurisdiction of the United Methodist Church. And then I served six years as the episcopal leader in the Virginia Conference, where Richmond was the headquarters. And now I am very, very blessed to be here in Mississippi, to be the resident Bishop of the Mississippi Annual Conference. And so I've been here since January, and literally have hit the ground running, but...

Eddie Rester 06:28 Sprinting.

Chris McAlilly 06:29

I wonder for cradle Methodists, I know that, I mean, I've mentioned this on other other conversations, other podcasts that we've done on this topic, that there was a moment where I explored and looked at other denominations, other trajectories and traditions. Did you have a moment like that? And if so, where did you find yourself exploring?

Sharma Lewis 06:29

Running, sprinting, whatever you want to call being able to do that. But I've enjoyed, honestly, I really enjoy getting to know the people here, the culture here. And you know, when I tell people that I'm here in Mississippi, folks look at me kind of strange. And then I tell them what has been the blessing, honestly, about being here in Mississippi is that I am being, I am learning, or I am seeing history, whether it was good or bad, because we do know Mississippi does have some history that is not too good. I'm reliving some of that history that I read about in high school and college and meeting wonderful people here in Mississippi that has had great influence on the culture and the city of Mississippi. And then of course, my headquarters is Jackson. So, yeah. It's kind of a joke. I was in graduate school, because before coming into ministry, I had a strong desire to go to medical school. I have a bachelor's and a master's in biology and I minored in chemistry. And so I was at the University of West Georgia, which is in Carrollton, Georgia. It's basically about an hour from Atlanta, and I was looking for a church. There was not a Methodist church close to campus. So I ended up going to this Baptist Church, this African American Baptist Church, and I went there only for three months. And the reason why I only went there for three months, is that when I first came, of course, they were very welcoming. But then I would go back Sunday after Sunday, because the way they had their worship service, I could go to the lab, and then go to worship and then go back to the lab if I need to. Well, I started noticing that women were not in the pulpit. Women were not associates. But what really struck me is that women could not even speak or preach from the pulpit area. The women--and this was, believe it or not, in 2000--the women had to speak from the floor. And so I remember having a conversation with my mother. And my mother, who is a PK kid, United Methodist PK kid. Her father, my grandfather served in what was called at that time the Georgia Conference. It was when north Georgia and South Georgia was together and served in the Georgia Conference. And I remember telling my mother that I was like, "Mama they are way, they are way behind." And she was like "That's what you get for going over there anyway. Trying to hang out with the Baptists. You know you need to be Methodist." So I had that experience that, from being in the atmosphere, I really saw women were not equipped and empowered to lead and I realized that I do not want to be a part of that type of denomination. Now the thing that is interesting is that I am a fourteenth pastor in my family.

Eddie Rester 10:15 Wow.

Sharma Lewis 10:15

And we have Baptists, United Methodists. We have no Catholic priests, but I do have members of my family that's Catholic. And so out of all of those denominations, of course, the United Methodist we do know that United Methodists have given women full clergy rights. And that was one of the things that always had been very, I would say, key for me, is that women have had an opportunity to lead in this denomination.

Eddie Rester 10:50

I wonder, as you think about that. I've got two daughters, and both of them are in science. Now I know you, that's a lot of your background. But it was important for us as they grew up to put them in places and spaces where other women who were ahead of them could model for them, answer questions for them, just show them that it can be done. Because science historically, particularly engineering, where they both are, historically been male dominated, just as clergy often it seems like has been male dominated. Who were some of those women for you that really helped you see a future and a calling into the ministry?

Sharma Lewis 11:30

Well, another blessing is my Aunt Essie, Reverend Essie C. Simmons. She served in the South Georgia Conference. Essie was the first African American woman elder to be ordained in the South Georgia Conference. And so Essie was my... She was a model for me. Essie was also the one who I tell my story of my call. After, before... Well, I'll say wrestling with my call to ministry and my Aunt Essie was the one. We went to dinner one night, and she said to me, "I know you feel that you're called to medicine." And I said, "Yes," because that's what I had pursued. And she said, "Have you ever thought about a call to ministry?" Now the thing that is interesting was that many, many people had shared with me that they felt I had a call on my life. But I wanted to hear the voice of God. Because of course, we do know that some people do follow after the call, because maybe their father or their aunt or their uncle, or somebody has encouraged them. But I always told people I wanted to hear God's voice for me. And so it was in a conversation with Essie where Essie challenged me to pray and discern and to really seek God. And she said to me, "It's not that I do not feel that you're called to medicine, but I see this call on your life." And I will tell you both, I really do feel as I went through the candidacy process that I actually feel that I was called at a young age, like a Jeremiah. I always had a love for the church. And I would follow Essie around. Essie was a graduate of Candler course of study. And believe it or not, in the summer, I would go with her. I was young. I was nine and 10 years old. I would go with her to go to school, and sit up in class. Now the thing that is so bizarre is that I am an alum of Gammon ITC. And I remember being in Christian education class with a gentleman by the name, he's now deceased, Dr. Jonathan Jackson. Jonathan Jackson is known for saying to all of us that Christian education is the ministry that undergirds all the ministries of the church. So I'm sitting in class, first day of class, and we're introducing ourselves. And we get to me and I say, "Well, I'm from Statesboro, Georgia," and I do all of that, like I'm doing with you all. And then all of a sudden, he just kind of looked at me and he said, "Let me ask you a question. I know this lady who used to be in my class, and she always would wear a clerical collar." And my aunt, if you ask anybody in the South Georgia Conference, they will tell you, that's what Essie was known for. And he said, "She would always wear this clerical color. And she," and then he stopped and he said, "she would always bring this little girl to class." And I said... I raised my hand and he said, "You?" I said yes. To discover that my Aunte Essie had Christian education from Jonathan Jackson, and almost 20 years later, I had--22 years later to be exact.-- had Jonathan Jackson as my professor at Gammon ITC. So my Aunt Essie, I would say would be my number one person. I also have a couple of aunts that are evangelists in the Church of God in Christ, as well as Pentecostal and Church of God and Christ, and Apostolic. I have aunts that are evangelists. So I've always been blessed to have women. And then one of my mentors who's outside of Methodism is Dr. Cynthia Hale, who is one of the cutting leaders, visionaries in the Disciples of Christ ministry. She started her ministering in Atlanta with four people in her apartment. And now her ministry is up to about 7,000 in Atlanta. And I, during the process of my call the ministry, I had an opportunity to sit with her and other students, different denominations, as she poured into us. And so I've been blessed to have women that have been in my life, whether they were my relatives or friends or even outside the denomination. So, yeah.

Chris McAlilly 16:17

Thank you for sharing. I feel like this episode will either be released right before right after All Saints. And I think about the way in which the saints... Ultimately the heart of Methodism, it comes through the hearts of the saints, you know, and there's a sense of the faith being passed down from generation to generation. I really appreciate the way in which you shared particular women who both mentored you that you could see, they were living saints, you know. They carried kind of the faith. I do wonder, if you're a cradle Methodists and you kind of found your way, part of it is you saw good kingdom work, gospel ministry being done in other churches, but you end up back serving and living out your call within the United Methodist Church. That takes a choice, you know, a conscious decision. How did you come to that decision? And I guess, what was it that led you to say, "Yes, I am. I do know all the things that are wrong, all the things that are bad, you know, all that..." Every church is a human institution that has its own issues and problems. How did you say, what led you to say, yes, I want to be a part of this, this particular church?

Sharma Lewis 17:33

Well, when leveling to say yes, one of the things that I will say about my parents, even though my parents raised me in the Methodist Church, my parents, even though my mother was giving me a hard time when I told her that I felt that this Baptist Church was way, you know, antiquated. My parents did raise us to make the decision for ourselves. And so being raised in the United Methodist Church, being able to see even at a young age, what we did as Methodist and what I mean by that, how we were service oriented as a denomination, how we were connectional. And to me, that is a term that we've lost. What makes us strong as Methodists is connectional. Why? Because I should be able to go to Georgia, Alabama, Florida, see that cross and flame and be able to identify and to feel comfortable, not only in the worship experience, but being comfortable to see that we have like. We have like interests, not only the like interests of how we look at service and community, not only the like interests that Methodists really supports education, but what the Methodist Church offers. And so the connection is what I would say, really, was the yes. Another part of the yes was that I was a member of MYF, and some people are like what's that? MYF is Methodist Youth Foundation. It is because of Essie, who really encouraged her youth to be a part of MYF. We would go every summer to Epworth By The Sea, in the South Georgia Conference. And they, even at that young age, it was only for youth, 12 to 18, where they were sharing about Methodism. That's where Arthur J. Moore Museum is, where it has all the information about John Wesley, and what we did in the Methodist Church. So the only thing that I really can tell you is I know Methodism, but the key thing for me is the connection, the strength of the connection. Also knowing that within the Methodist church, we are, as I would say the Methodist Church to me really lives out Acts 1. 8b, "that you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria and to the outermost." We are a denomination. We're concerned about our people within our walls. We are concerned about our community. We are concerned about the unloved, the unwanted. And we go as far as we can see. And of course, that's our Central Conference, central conferences. And so I saw even as a young age, even as a young adult, the Methodist Church living out of the scripture, and we do live the scriptures.

Eddie Rester 20:35

So one of the things in one of these conversations I was thinking about is just how pastors are deployed. And I think it's an expression of our connectionalism. And I think a lot of folks, even a lot of folks who've been raised United Methodist, don't understand that side of things, that United Methodist pastors are never members of a local church. They're not called by a local church. Our calling, our understanding of ourselves, is related to the mission of the larger church, not just the walls of a local church. And I know some people will push back against that a lot. But for me, that's one of the significant things about how I perceive myself. I'm an extension, and not just a guy who got called to a local church.

Sharma Lewis 21:29 Right.

Eddie Rester 21:30
To serve here. I know that as bishop you have, I mean, that's part of your job is to deploy. In the years that you've been a bishop now, since 2016.

Sharma Lewis 21:43 Seven years.

Eddie Rester 21:44
Seven years. This is it. You know, seven years out, you're supposed to have figured it out, right?

Sharma Lewis 21:50

Right.

Eddie Rester 21:50
So what brings you joy about that side of the connectionalism? And what concerns do you have about that side of the connectional church?

Sharma Lewis 21:59

Okay. Well, I will tell you, you know, what brings me joy is that we are a church, that--I will go back to our mission--to make disciples of Jesus Christ for the transformation of the world. That brings me joy, because as I tell people all the time, I still believe that it is our responsibility as Christians and as believers to introduce people to Christ, and we allow the Holy Spirit and the working in the Holy Spirit, to then let them do what God has called them to be. What brings me joy, and I tell people this all the time, and they look at me that I got two heads. I really enjoyed the appointment process. And they go, "What is it about it that you enjoy?" What I enjoy is that in the Methodist Church, and because I would say very proudly, we are a denomination that really focuses on the importance of education. And so what is exciting to me is that I get, for lack of a better word, a pool of pastors, men and women, that God has called into the denomination with gifts and graces. And it is our responsibility, my responsibility and the Cabinet's responsibility, to match the pastor's gifts and graces with the church. And what is also very profound, which some people say this is very stressful, there are some times we go to the cabinet table and we may not have enough. We may not have enough pastors. We may not have enough churches. But some kind of way, I don't know how it happens other than the working of the Holy Spirit, God just works it out. And we have opportunities. I have opportunities to place people in churches or extension ministries so that people can live out their call. We are, you all know, an appointed process, an episcopal process. It can be a weighted, as your podcast is called, it can be a weighted opportunity, and it can be very heavy. But what is fascinating to me about the appointment process is being able to appoint these clergy with these different gifts and graces for such a time as this. And as we say, we appoint one year at a time to these churches or these extension ministries where their gifts are for the upbuilding of the kingdom. And so what brings me joy is to be able... That is part of my job, believe it or not, I would say the appointment process is the part of my job that I enjoy. Now part of the job that I don't enjoy, just to be honest with you, unfortunately when clergy get...

Eddie Rester 24:52
You don't enjoy everything about being a bishop?

Sharma Lewis 24:54

[LAUGHTER] No, I don't. I don't. The part of my job that I don't enjoy, unfortunately, is when clergy will get in trouble. And what I mean by that, when there is some type of complaint. But even in that we still work to help. And we have resources all in the United Methodist Church that I will say can help clergy from the time they start their call, which is the candidacy process, all the way in where they are either licensed as a local pastor, or if they are ordained a deacon or an elder. And so we walk with them. I will also say a part of this position that I like is that a bishop does sit at a seat of influence. For all the podcasters who may not like what I'm getting ready to say, I had wonderful opportunity to begin the Mississippi State game on Saturday. And Mississippi played University of Alabama Roll Tide. And so who accompanied me was my bishop, who I was on his cabinet, Bishop B. Michael Watson and his wife, Margaret. Well, having a wonderful opportunity to be at Mississippi State, having a wonderful opportunity to go and tour of the campus. But more importantly, I had a wonderful opportunity to be a part of the Wesley Foundation. I mean, a lot of the Wesley students, I saw where they are transforming lives. That's another thing about Methodists that I like. That even being very intentional after you leave from being youth ministry, you can go to college and still live out your life, still figure out. And we have the Wesley Foundations that allow us to do that. But the seat of influence is I was able to meet, of course, the president of Mississippi State. I met our attorney general. I met one of the vice presidents that is involved with community affairs. And I'm saying all of this, because again, being able to have a conversation with them, to say, if there's anything that the Mississippi Annual Conference can be a part to help lay folks, help clergy, count me in. Bring me to the table so that I can have that conversation. And so that was exciting to meet different people, to see that, you know, as a bishop, I may not have gotten that opportunity if I was a pastor. But being able to do that, to have an influence on the church, have an influence on folks lives, have an influence on the denomination, have an influence on the Mississippi Annual Conference.

Chris McAlilly 27:45

I think that's really, that's really helpful in terms of framing the the work and the role that you're in, what you love about it and some of the opportunities that you have. I do wonder, as you think about... One of the things that is part of the conversation in the United Methodist Church right now is a lot of turbulence, a lot of turmoil, fragmentation. You have plenty of opportunities to talk about that. I don't want to talk about that specifically. But I do wonder, in the midst of all that, as you go back and read the history of Methodism, you know, you've mentioned a few things, opportunities for women, education, service oriented connectionalism. When you think about the history and the tradition, the theological tradition of Methodism, what do you see at the heart of it?

Sharma Lewis 28:41

Well, I would say one of the things that I see at the heart of it is what Wesley talked about, and this is for our betterment, our means of grace. Being able to read scripture, being able to fast, being able, you know, our acts of piety and understanding our social holiness. You know, we're not, I tell people all the time, the Methodist Church, well, lack of a better word, is a system, and all systems are not perfect. But I feel that we have very strong theology. You all know, of course, that we have the theology of grace, prevenient, justifying and sanctifying grace. We're all moving on to perfection. Prevenient grace, as you know, is the grace that comes before, even before we said yes to the Lord, the Lord was, as I tell people, the Lord was moving on us, moving on our hearts. So I think for me, grace is very important. We don't want to have cheap grace, as Bonhoeffer talked about, but I think at the heart of Methodism, we have our three forms of grace. I think at the heart of Methodism is the way in which we live that out through the means of grace, as I said, praying, fasting, reading scripture. Again, I would say, the heart of Methodism is, again, is the connection. And the heart of Methodism is people. The Methodist Church, we love people. We are called to serve as Jesus said, "I am called not to be served, but to serve." I love that I'm a part of a denomination that my apportionment, dollars--and I know people don't like talk about that--but that my apportionment dollars can stretch. And it's not just here in Mississippi. And a lot of people don't know that when they're putting this money in the offering plate, they're touching lives that they may never, ever, ever see. But the power is that the way in which our connectional system. The other thing that is powerful about the Methodist Church, how global we are. And I don't think sometimes we realize that as well, that we are a global denomination. We are affecting lives globally. We're affecting lives in Africa. We are affecting lives in the Philippines. And another wonderful opportunity of my position as a bishop being, able to go to our central conferences to see what they are doing in the Methodist Church. But I think the the heart of the church is going back to God's people.

Eddie Rester 31:27
Explain for folks who may not understand what's a Central Conference? What does that mean? You've used that a couple of times.

Sharma Lewis 31:33 I've said that.

Eddie Rester 31:34
I want to make sure people understand how important that term is.

Sharma Lewis 31:38
That is true. And you know, one thing that we are guilty of, Methodists have a lot of acronyms.

Eddie Rester 31:44
We got a lot insider language.

Sharma Lewis 31:46

And we say stuff. And if I was writing, I would write "CC," and it'd be like, what is that? The Central Conference, Methodist churches that are outside of the United Methodist Church. And so that's part of the global, that people don't realize that we do have churches in the Philippines. We have churches in Russia. We have churches in Africa. We have bishops. We have district superintendents. We have the same type of structural polity. The other thing, Chris, as you said, what is unique about us is our polity. What we do here in the States, they do that outside of the United States, which is known as the Central Conference.

Chris McAlilly 32:34 I wonder..

Eddie Rester 32:35
Let's go back. Oh, go ahead, Chris.

Chris McAlilly 32:36

No, I wonder, you know, we've talked about some of the good things about Methodism as a theological tradition, the United Methodist Church, being in a position of influence and having high visibility in your role as a bishop, I think also puts you in a position to see some of the weaknesses.

Sharma Lewis 32:55 Yes.

Chris McAlilly 32:56

And I wonder if you would speak to that. I wonder if you could maybe articulate from your perspective, some of the things that you see, that may be hold us back or that are less than good?

Sharma Lewis 33:10

Okay. Well, you know, with, as they say, with every blessing comes burdens. And or you would say with every strength, there are some weaknesses. I think some of our weaknesses is that... One is a little sad is that it was in our special Jurisdictional Conference that was in 2022, that we elected finally, the last African American woman bishop in the South Central. And so one of the areas that we are looking at from a local level, district level, Annual Conference, and even the Council of Bishops, is still the whole topic of anti-racism. I'm very pleased that here in Mississippi, that we have decided as the Mississippi Annual Conferences that we're really going to look at racism and also eradicating. There's some people who say we'll never eradicate racism. You know, some of our weaknesses, I will tell you that, still, people of color, as well as women, still do not get a fair share. Even though we are a denomination, that we are 60 plus years of full clergy women rights. But I will not lie to you. I still have churches, that when we are in the appointment process, that the church will say to the District Superintendent, "We're not ready to accept a woman," or "We're not ready to accept a person of color." And so that can be still in 2023, that is still very hard to hear. What is also still very hard to hear is that, we still in some of our churches are not paying women the same pay that we are paying our men. I think also some of our weaknesses is that we still will not allow our young people to thrive. We have very gifted young people in our churches, but we still have people who want to, you know, still do ministry, as I call it--y'all may not even know this--as an eight track tape. Somebody may say, "What's an eight track tape?"

Chris McAlilly 35:36 Eddie knows about it.

Eddie Rester 35:39
I know about it. I know. Chris, Chris is just a youngster.

Sharma Lewis 35:42 He's just a youngster.

Eddie Rester 35:43
Yeah, he's like fifteen years old.

Sharma Lewis 35:46

You know, we're living in--like what we're doing. We're living in a Aoom podcast world. But we still have churches, we still have members sitting on our pews, that want to do ministry, as I call it, an eight track tape way. And so they're not giving our young people the opportunity to really be who they are and to thrive. And so it's kind of being stuck. But I feel that, you know, those areas... And I will tell you, one of the big proponents of the Council of Bishops is that we are trying to do a lot of work on anti racism. We still have issues that have divided the church. And of course, I don't need to say this. Of course, we know that right now we are in the whole disaffiliation and disaffiliating because people are still wondering what will happen with the Methodist Church. Will we accept full inclusion? And there are pros and cons on how people feel about that from a theological perspective. Is the church really open to all? And I tell folks that the Methodist Church is open to all. We want folks to be saved. I want people to have a relationship with Jesus Christ.

Chris McAlilly 37:04

One of the things that I found looking back at American Methodism as a theological tradition, there's a an article I came across recently from Jason Vickers, who is now at Baylor. He's at Truett Seminary, taking over the Wesleyan House of Study there. And it's about these different, I guess, theological sensibilities within American Methodism. One of them is evangelical, the sense that the gospel, you can have a personal encounter with the living Christ. You can come to saving faith in Jesus. And that one of the ways that one of the early Methodist ministers talked about it, Nathan Banks, he talked about the renovating work of the Holy Spirit that can not only save you, but that can heal and renovate and rehabilitate your heart and your life. And you know, you can go on to a holy or perfect love. There's also this radical theological sensibility in American Methodism, that says that the Gospel is not just for you, but that the Gospel is for everyone. And so, you know, in the American context, people on the margins, people who are, you know, women, people of color, young people, those who--the educated and the illiterate, the enslaved and the free, Black and white--all have an opportunity to receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And it's radical. There's a radical sensibility to it. And those things are held in tension, I think. At times I, you know, what I see is like these folks that will want to grab onto one side of that. But that tension is very much there. And it really, you know, as I was reflecting on this recently, it's not just in John Wesley. It's in the apostle Paul, you know. "I'm not ashamed of the Gospel," he says. "It's the power of God for salvation for everyone." You know. I mean, that's in Romans chapter one. It doesn't get more biblically centric, and yet those things are held together, even in that one verse from Paul. And I just, I wonder how you think about that in your own ministry? How you hold together, both that evangelical and that radical sensibility as you live out your calling?

Sharma Lewis 39:07
Right. Well, I want to say that I think that, I think it was on Sunday that I was on Facebook, and I heard you preach.

Chris McAlilly 39:39 All right.

Sharma Lewis 39:40

Chris, I heard that. I'm coming to Christ one day soon. But I heard you say that. How I hold it in tension, and I'll go back to something I missed, when you asked me about what is also unique about Methodism. We hold the Bible as key. The Bible should be. John Wesley, yes, we do have the Book of Discipline, you know that. We also know John Wesley taught the Word of God. And one of the things that I will say that I feel, I feel that in some of our Methodist churches, we're not really teaching. We're not teaching our people Methodism. And so that's why right now we have people who are afraid of what they are hearing, what the Methodists do not believe. Case in point, you know, there's this thing out that says we don't believe in the Trinity. Well, if you just go back to just Bible 101, you know, and if you read the Bible, you know that as Christians, not as Methodists, but just as Christians, Christians 101, we believe in the Trinity, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. How I hold it in tension is, I believe in the Word of God. I believe that the Word of God is for, like you said, the literate, the illiterate, the young, the old. Paul speaks of that, "nor Greek nor Jew." And so, but what I feel that we've done, I feel like we have sometimes watered down the Gospel to make people comfortable, and that we don't want to preach just the unadulterated truth. If I preach Jesus, the Word, Jesus will do the drawing. I don't have to do anything. I don't have to do what I call preachertainment. I don't have to trump up the Word. I don't have to do anything. Just preach Jesus. We all have been blessed to either go to seminary, Bible college, course of study. So we know the Word. We should be the embodiment of the Word. We should be the embodiment of the logos. And we as clergy should then allow, as you preach, we allow the Holy Spirit. When I tell churches all the time, why do you think we have the cross and flame? We have the cross and flame, because we know the cross is... You know, Jesus died on the cross for me and you for all of us. But that flame is what we are just so afraid of. We are afraid of the Holy Spirit. We will talk about if you think about this, and even think about maybe your churches, you all have served. People feel very comfortable in talking about Jesus. People feel very, because you know, Jesus, baby Jesus, died on the cross. People feel very comfortable in talking about God, God, the Creator. But when you start talking to people about the Holy Spirit, we get nervous, because we don't know what we will do, be, act like, with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does the conviction. The Holy Spirit does heal. The Holy Spirit does deliver. But we don't believe that anymore. We don't believe in the Word, anymore. I hate to say it.

Eddie Rester 43:04

I think part of it is, one, we've conceded the Holy Spirit to the denominations who have larger outward displays of meeting the Holy Spirit, but also to give our lives over to the Holy Spirit, I think we have to give up control.

Sharma Lewis 43:19 Yes.

Eddie Rester 43:19

And I think, in this post-Christian, post-modern world we live in, where everything seems to be... We don't want to give up control. And particularly I think for middle America, middle income Americans, control is what they've worked hard to gain. We don't want to give that up to anyone, especially not someone who might suddenly unravel our lives.

Sharma Lewis 43:45

Right. Or unravel our theology. You know, the thing that I tell people about the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is a mystery. And if you just allow the Holy Spirit to come in, and don't, as the scripture says, don't quench the Holy Spirit. I can't do this work without the Holy Spirit. John Wesley talked about the Holy Spirit. And that's another thing, when people will be like, "Methodists shouldn't act like that." Or we shouldn't, you know... Do we believe the Holy Spirit? We talk about it.

Eddie Rester 44:22
The camp meetings were all about it.

Sharma Lewis 44:24
Well, do we not think that when John Wesley was out in the field, when George Whitfield was out in the field, when Harry Hoosier, first African American was preaching, do we really think it out in the field, when Harry Hoosier, first African American was preaching, do we really think it was just because they were just great orators? It was the Spirit. It was the Spirit of the Living God. The Living God. We all serve, yes, Jesus died, but we serve a resurrected Savior and I think we forgot about that. And then the other thing that we forgot about is the Word of God is so powerful, that I think that, sometimes I think we're afraid. We are afraid. And God forbid if you started talking to some Methodists about speaking in tongues, because, Wesley, if you go back. If you go back and read even when you go back and read ... We believed in that. We believe in the gifts. We may not operate in the gifts, but we believe in the gifts. And then you'll be like, we're not Pentecostal, or we're not Church of God in Christ, well, you got to understand that good old Methodists, we were very methodical, but we also had some spirit. We had some fire. Also the heart of Methodism, is what Wesley said, "The world is my parish." That means you got to get outside of these walls. You've got to take, as I'm being coined, Jesus to the streets. You gotta get into your community.

Chris McAlilly 46:20

So thinking about doing that, you know, if the thing, if maybe the center and the heart of Methodism is the Word of God and the active of work of the Holy Spirit, and then one of the things that needs to be done is that needs to be taken out into the streets. I wonder, as you you've been here in Mississippi, now, for nine, ten...

Sharma Lewis 46:44 Ten months.

Chris McAlilly 46:45

Ten months. I wonder, as you continue to sit with it, and pray with it, and I know that you're a woman of prayer as well. I guess how do you see the Spirit moving in Mississippi? How are you discerning the Spirit's work here in Mississippi, among the people called Methodist?

Sharma Lewis 47:06

I will tell you all that, you know, my background as a scientist, which I am, because I worked in the field of biology and chemistry, is that I'm very observant. So when I first got here, you all know that I did 22 sessions, toured the state, of the Bishop's Chat and Chew. And starting in February of 2024, I'm going to do Bishop's Chat and Chew 2.0. But this time, I'm taking the Conference staff with me. And it will be specifically on the staff, Director of Connectional Ministry, Assistant to the Bishop, Conference Treasurer, and the Director of Spiritual Leadership will tour the Annual Conference to once again listen. See, I think a lot of times we don't listen enough to the people in the pews. And what I'm listening for is where the heart of the man, woman, child, or youth is sitting in the pews. And of course, when I went away for my sabbatical, I did a lot of praying and asking God, what next? We will be smaller, and we know that. And we have churches who have disaffiliated, for numerous of reasons. But I will tell you that at the heart of what I feel God is saying to me, but even more importantly what I hear God saying to the people called Methodist, is that they want to get past a 52 year fight. And they want to be the church. People want to be the church. COVID did a sucker punch. And now we're waiting to see the fate of the church. But I believe that here in Mississippi, when I have met with folks, people have said to me, "We want to get past the disaffiliation, and Bishop, we want to be the church." We want to get back to. So I think that getting back to is some basics. That's another reason why we had read the Bible Challenge for 2023 and I'm doing it again in 2024. People want to get back to the small groups. People want to get back to, here in Mississippi, the accountability. All of that is John Wesley. We've started these lighthouses because we needed a place for people to land after the disaffiliation, but what we are finding out within the lighthouse is that we're seeing some new, fresh expressions of how people want to do church. People really want to help their brother and sister. People really want to get into the community. People really want to be able to share the love of Jesus Christ. People are tired of bickering. They want to figure this thing out. And so in figuring this out, what I feel that I'm called to do, as well as the discipline, I'm the spiritual and temporal leader, I'm to listen to that, and direct us. People want to get back to praying. Prayer. Prayer, prayer is simple. Prayer. People want to get back to that. People want to get back to relationships, authentic relationships. And so part of me going away with my sabbatical and then coming back and sharing with the cabinet as we did in our cabinet retreat. I want to go back, and again, hear the heart folks, I felt that, you know, I've been here ten months, people got to know me. But then now, it's for me to hear and for me to do the vision casting. But I do feel that part of the vision casting comes from the pews, because people know their communities. They know their context. They know the people. And I also feel that Mississippi folks really want to help the least, the lost. And so yeah, we've got a lot of work to do. I've got a lot of work to do.

Chris McAlilly 51:41

Yeah, that's so helpful. It gives me a better sense of what you mean, when you say "discernment." You know, there's a, I've heard you say a number of times that you want to point the church towards discernment. And what I hear you saying is that discernment looks like getting back in the Word. It's listening to the voice of the Spirit. It's listening.

Sharma Lewis 52:01 Listening to the people.

Chris McAlilly 52:02

Listening to people, and that, you know, you can do the work of discernment through the very basic practices of the faith: prayer, small groups, accountability. It really, you know, I mean, at the end of the day, the heart of Methodism is just the heart of Christianity. It's the heart of the Gospel.

Sharma Lewis 52:20 It's exactly. It is.

Chris McAlilly 52:21

And there's a sense that there's nothing new under the sun. And I think, you know, I take your point, we may be afraid of the Spirit, and we may be... It's like, we don't believe it enough to actually put it into practice. And if we were to do that, yeah, I mean, I think there is a sense of... I like what you said, Eddie, that it's a loss of control. That there's... There was a quotation I was thinking about when you guys were talking about this from Luke Timothy Johnson, a book called "Scripture and Discernment." He says, "What is it really that we could lose if we handed ourselves over to the discernment of faith? Would we really lose anything except the illusion of control? This question suggests that there may be an idolatrous project underlying resistance to spiritual discernment, the desire for a decision making process that we can predict and control. But the obedience of faith offers no certainties. Not even that we can be certain of our own fidelity. We can't know if the decision we make here now is correct. We can only know that we're making the best one we can. The reason has nothing to do with our sinfulness and everything to do with the fact that faith has to do with the living God, who's always ahead of us in surprising and shocking ways."

Sharma Lewis 52:39

That's right. And the thing is, we are all, as we know as Methodists, we are all sinful. The Word says in Romans 3.23, we all have sinned, and fallen short, but we serve a risen Savior. He died on the cross for that sin. And you know, the other thing when I shared at Annual Conference about the state of the church address, when I said it's time for us to change this narrative from disaffiliation to discernment, to discipleship, a lot of people got stuck and said, "Well, what do you mean about this discernment?" Discerning what God is speaking to the hearts of people, and the discernment will maybe look different from church to church or person to person. But we have to allow ourselves. We have to allow ourselves and our faith level of understanding how to go about the discernment. Some people think that discernment is scripted. You know, I feel like God is constantly. I feel like as a bishop, I'm constantly discerning from my own personal life, my family life, church life. And the reason why I say discipleship is because we're in the people business. We are in the... We are Christians. We are in the people business. Our mission, we've gotten away from our mission. We have a great mission: to make disciples of Jesus Christ for the transformation of the world. We have to ask ourselves are our people coming in on Sunday morning, are they being transformed? You know, Eddie, when you talk about control, I've heard folks saying that, you know, the reason why people come to church is they have no control at home and no control in a job, so they come to the church, and they flex they control.

Eddie Rester 55:29
See, I think that there's a lot of truth to that. There's a lot. We could talk about a lot of COVID stories.

Sharma Lewis 55:37

Yes. We could talk about a lot of COVID stories, like people did not want churches to close, because they're like, "Oh, my God," but we were closing churches for your safety.

Eddie Rester 55:46

Bishop, thank you. We've taken up a whole lot of your time. And I know you got a billion things to do right now. But we just appreciate so much just the conversation. I'm thankful for your leadership and we're praying for you. Thank you.

Sharma Lewis 55:59

Please, I would say continue. Continue to pray for me. Continue to pray for Mississippi. But I will, if I want to do a plug for Mississippi, I think the best is yet to come. I'm excited about being here. I'm not gonna lie, I do want to get past the disaffiliation. And I do want to focus on churches that are staying, because I think we have an opportunity for the connection, to be a model Annual Conference, to say something as simple as we're going back to the basics. We're going to take what Wesley said. We're going to look at these accountability groups. And we're going to look at the seriousness of our means of grace. And after Annual Conference, you're going to hear me really talk about the power of praying and having Mississippi to be an Annual Conference where we're really seeking God in prayer. Because what would happen if the Mississippi Annual Conference said, we're going to take prayer so serious, like Mark Batterson said in his ridiculous prayer in the pit, that book, we're going to say a ridiculous prayer of praying for the lost, really praying for the lost and see what God will do. So stay tuned.

Eddie Rester 57:33
Let's see what happens. Thank you, Bishop, again. God bless you. And we just appreciate your time today.

Sharma Lewis 57:39
Thank you. Appreciate both of you and what you're doing. Bye bye.

Eddie Rester 57:43
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Chris McAlilly 57:51

If you would like to support this work financially or if you have an idea for a future guest, you can go to theweightpodcast.com. [END OUTRO]