“Methodism - The Gospel In Motion” with Will Willimon
Shownotes:
Chris and Eddie are joined again by Reverend Dr. Will Willimon, Professor of the Practice of Christian Ministry at Duke Divinity School and former Bishop of the North Alabama Conference of the United Methodist Church. Rev. Willimon, Chris, and Eddie talk about what it means to be part of the United Methodism, with its tradition of being the Gospel on the move, and how that tradition translates into today’s world.
Rev. Willimon has five decades of preaching and teaching experience, and as a lifelong Methodist, he’s got a few opinions and ideas about the current issues facing the denomination and American Christianity as a whole--and he shares those opinions with humor and candor, and also with urgency and sadness over the difficulties facing God’s Church today.
This particular conversation doesn’t cover Rev. Willimon’s newest book, Heaven and Earth: An Advent Incarnation, but we’ll be sure to have him back to talk about that.
Resources:
Follow Will Willimon on the web:
Heaven and Earth: An Advent Incarnation
Check out Will Willimon’s other books and publications here:
https://willwillimon.com/writing/
Follow Will Willimon on social media:
https://www.facebook.com/WillWillimon
https://twitter.com/willimontweets
Transcript:
Eddie Rester 00:00
I'm Chris McAlilly. And I'm Eddie Rester. Welcome to The Weight.
Chris McAlilly 00:04
Today we're talking to Bishop Will Willimon, who spent a long time as the Dean of Duke Chapel. He's been a guest on the podcast before and he's been an authority on the heart of Methodism for a long time. And that's what we're going to be talking about today.
Eddie Rester 00:22
Today is really kind of an introduction for you, our normal Thursday listener, if you listen on Thursdays, we release episodes on Thursday, a series of episodes that we're releasing on Mondays called the Heart of Methodism. We're bringing together theologians, writers, bishops, pastors, just kind of across the board to help us think about, for those of us from our tribe of Wesleyans, what does it mean to be Methodist? What's the hope? What's the hurt? What's our past? What's our future? And Bishop Willimon is one of those voices. He just, he knows Methodism inside and out, from all the places that he's seen and served and taught. And it's all, it's fun. It's just fun to have him on the program.
Chris McAlilly 01:07
Yeah. So if you found our podcasts through an episode on mental health or on sports and culture or any number of other topics, this will be a bit more of a series of conversations that may feel like insider baseball, in certain ways, because, in part, it is. But I do think you can learn something from kind of overhearing a conversation among Methodists and Wesleyans because I do think what's happening in the Methodist Church, the United Methodist Church, and its fragmentation right now in the American context, is just symptomatic of larger issues, both in American Christianity and in American culture. There are any number of conversations that are happening across the landscape about what's going on, and why it's happening, why things are breaking down, and what can be done. And I think you can learn something from just watching a group of people try to figure out, okay, what we inherited is breaking down. What do we need to carry forward? And a lot of the conversation today is about that. What are your takeaways, Eddie?
Eddie Rester 02:25
We just had a good conversation about itenerancy. We had a conversation about the understanding of being on mission with Jesus in the world. And I think for me, just that reminder that we're sent. As people of Jesus, we are always sent. One of the comments I didn't get to work in, talk about, because when you talk to Will Willimon, you don't get to work everything in. But just that pastors in our tradition are sent. We are under authority. We are sent. We're not members of a local church. We're sent. And I think that's a good vision for how we do church. And I think it's a good vision for us to understand as well. And I think you're going to hear that thread in the conversation today.
Chris McAlilly 03:10
Yeah, the Gospel puts us in motion. That's the phrase that I'll remember. And we're sent not just to places, but we're sent--I think that's the other thing that I'll take from this, is that we're sent to people. And that may look like staying in a place. It may look like being sent to another place. But you know, Jesus, the living Christ, desires people to have hope and healing, and salvation, restoration. And God desires the church. Christ desires a church that would respond to that mission. And, you know, I guess one of the things I've thought about through the years is, you know, if a church isn't doing it, you know, God has other means, you know. "I can raise up children of Abraham from the stones," John the Baptist said, and so, you know, I do think churches... The heart of Methodism, I guess, in my view, is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And Will really points us front and center to that. So I hope you enjoy the episode. And if you like this conversation, be looking for Monday releases for the next few weeks. I think you'll enjoy the conversations there. And as always, we are grateful that you're on the podcast. Next week, we'll be back to... I don't know what we're releasing next week, but I'm sure it will be great, right, Eddie?
Eddie Rester 04:34
It'll be incredible. It's gonna be life changing.
Chris McAlilly 04:36
Every episode is incredible and life changing. Yeah, that's right. So thanks for being with us today. [INTRO] Life can be heavy. So heavy, in fact that the weight we carry can sometimes cause us to lose hope.
Eddie Rester 04:49
But we've all come across those people in life who seem to be experiencing the same world we live in, except they maintain a great depth of joy and hope.
Chris McAlilly 04:57
A former generation called this gravitas. It was their description of a soul that had gained enough weightiness to be attractive, like all things with a gravitational pull.
Eddie Rester 05:09
Those are the people we want to talk to. On this podcast, we talk to pastors, entrepreneurs, artists, mental health experts, and many others.
Chris McAlilly 05:18
We'll create space for heavy topics. But we'll be listening for a quality of soul that could be called gravitas. Welcome to The Weight. [END INTRO] Well, we're here today with Will Willimon. Will has been a guest on the podcast before and it's great to see you, Will, thanks for being with us.
Will Willimon 05:37
Hey, it's great to be back with the Chris and Eddie show.
Chris McAlilly 05:43
I hear you're taking the Will Willimon show to UNC Chapel Hill today, which I was surprised to hear about. But you're going to grace the enemy with your presence.
Will Willimon 05:57
Yeah, the Lord loves them, too. So, yeah.
Eddie Rester 06:05
I can't think of a better ambassador to send.
Will Willimon 06:08
Oh, that's nice of you to say, yeah.
Eddie Rester 06:11
Down the street. I know it's before we play them in football this year, so you can still be friends, I guess, for a little bit longer.
Chris McAlilly 06:19
Duke's having a good football year.
Will Willimon 06:22 We are.
Chris McAlilly 06:22 It's a different moment.
Will Willimon 06:24
I was just talking to someone who saw our quarterback on crutches on campus today. And so I may be called at any minute to come over and try to do a healing for our ailing quarterback from Alabama.
Chris McAlilly 06:46
Well, we're glad you're here today. What were you gonna say Eddie?
Eddie Rester 06:49
I was just going to say any basketball wins, it's just a bonus at Duke.
Will Willimon 06:53 Absolutely.
Eddie Rester 06:54
You know, it's good for the soul. But what happens from November to March is really what matters. matters.
Will Willimon 07:01
Yeah, that's armageddon. And that's life and death. Yeah,
Chris McAlilly 07:04
You gotta keep the main thing, the main thing.
Eddie Rester 07:06
That's right. The main thing, the main thing.
Chris McAlilly 07:08
We're doing, Will... Thanks for joining us. We have a series of conversations that we're having with folks about Methodism, as a theological tradition. And I know that you've written about, you know, your life and your role within the United Methodist Church through the years. I wonder if you could just remind folks, you know, who may know or who may not know your work, where, you know, your family of origin. Did you guys, did you grow up, are you a cradle Methodist?
Will Willimon 07:41
I sure am. Yeah. My family had a hand at founding a church, about 1830. And we went to that church and then went to the larger downtown Methodist Church. So yeah, can't remember when I wasn't a Methodist.
Eddie Rester 08:05
Tell us a little bit about, within that, your call to the ministry. When did you begin to realize God may be calling you to serve in the ordained ministry of the United Methodist Church? How did that happen for you?
Will Willimon 08:19
You know, I think if... Well, my story was it happened when I was in college, that kind of I was attracted to religion classes at Wofford, and in the Methodist movement, I met some Methodist preachers that I didn't know existed, who were cool and young and interesting. But looking back, I bet you there was an inclination or draw towards ministry much earlier. And a lot of people who kind of knew me, kind of by the time I came out midway through college and said, "Hey, I'm thinking about seminary," and a number of them said, "I'm not surprised." And there were others like my mother who said, "I don't think this will go well. Preachers have to mollify and placate people. And let's just say God has not given you that many resources for doing that, dear." So yeah.
Chris McAlilly 09:37
That's so funny. Did you ever have a moment when you explored, I guess before you were ordained in the Methodist Church, did you ever have a moment when you explored other denominations, other, I guess other branches of the Christian family?
Will Willimon 09:55
Not really. But I'm, you know, as a seminary professor, there are a lot of people who are doing that now, particularly a lot of Methodists who wonder, "Gee, is life easier in another church family?" I never did that. I generally tell students, I think that there are good reasons for switching a church family, but that ought to be done carefully. I feel like all denominations are equally sinful, but in different ways. And I just happen to know more about Methodist sin than I know about the others.
Chris McAlilly 10:37
Yeah, I think that's right. When I was in seminary, it was 2007-2010. And, you know, Rowan Williams was the Archbishop of Canterbury at the time, and I was looking around at the decline of American Methodism, and I thought, huh. You know, that guy looks like he knows what he's talking about. A lot of the folks in Methodism didn't seem to have a good sense of what was going on. And I found myself, there was an Anglican Communion service every Wednesday, and that group of people would gather. It was very, it was holy, one of the holiest moments of the week for me. And then everybody went to the pub for dinner, fish and chips and a beer. And I thought, Man, this is awesome. This kind of a vision of the good life that I could get into. And I found myself kind of... I found the Book of Common Prayer. And I found, I don't know, a vision of Christianity, that seemed to have a little bit more depth to it. But then, you know, the more I looked into it, the more I realized the Anglicans were in the midst of division and turmoil and all kinds of, you know, worldwide... They were fragmenting and fracturing. And I, you know, I kind of came to the same conclusion that, you know, there's not a church that doesn't contain humans, and humans are broken. And churches and the systems that humans build, they tend to carry with them, all of the brokenness that you see in other human institutions. And at the very least, I do know these better than others.
Will Willimon 12:16 Yeah.
Eddie Rester 12:17
Will, you've got a unique perspective. Oh, go ahead, Will. I'm sorry.
Will Willimon 12:23
No, I was just thinking. If Chris had been under my care, at the time he was flirting with Anglicanism, you know, I would say, "Hey, I know your family. It's not the right social class." "You cannot push off okay. And you know, as Methodists, we can take a drink now, so come on."
Chris McAlilly 12:38
[LAUGHTER] That's right. That's right.
Will Willimon 12:46
I'm glad I didn't have to make that argument. But I would have.
Eddie Rester 12:50
He chose a lesser place to go to seminary than some of us.
Chris McAlilly 12:55 Dang, man.
Eddie Rester 12:57 It shows.
Chris McAlilly 12:57
I didn't know it's gonna be like that, Eddie.
Eddie Rester 13:01
Usually it's you're doing this to me. This is fair. This is turnabout. You know, one episode a year.
Chris McAlilly 13:06 Fair enough.
Eddie Rester 13:07
Will, I was just saying you have this unique perspective on Methodism. Not only are you an ordained United Methodist pastor. You've served in that role. You've been a seminary professor, where you have taught a generation or two of Methodist pastors. You've served as the Dean of the Methodist Chapel or the chapel at Duke. You served as a bishop in the United Methodist Church. So when we began to talk about what's the heart of the movement, what is it, what threads would you begin to pull or point to, to say, "This is us?"
Will Willimon 13:43
I think I'd have to say we were birthed in Protestant pietism, the religion the warm heart. We talked about, hey, it's about Jesus. It's about, not only is it about Jesus, but it's having a personal, experienced, continuing connection with Jesus in a deep way, beyond the intellectual or the doctrinal. We Methodists haven't... We've kind of, like with John Wesley, prided ourselves on it. We don't do anything new theologically. We see ourselves as bringing forward the historic faith of the church. However, one thing we did was from day one was a missionary fervor and a way of doing church, organizing church and deploying clergy, that was from the first missionary. John Wesley felt the Gospel is something that puts you in motion. The great Wesleyan message to 18th century England was salvation for all, particularly those of you who feel the church excluded you or left you behind or didn't include you. So, and that, of course, kind of got on steroids when you came to the American frontier, and this kind of Methodist sense about, you know, if you are truly connected to Jesus Christ, you are always sent by Jesus Christ. "Missio," Latin word for "sent." And we swept across the American frontier and took one of the least churched places in the world and made it, within about a 50 year period, one of the most Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian places in the world. And at our best, I think, that has been our linkage of pietism and the missionary drive.
Eddie Rester 16:18
One of the things in there, that missionary drive, you know, when Oxford University Methodist Church was founded originally in 1836, they weren't, there wasn't a church name attached to them. They were simply referred to in the early history books, as the Oxford Mission. That was how...
Will Willimon 16:37 Oh, interesting.
Eddie Rester 16:38
That's how that place... At that point in time Oxford, Mississippi was not the cultural center of the world that it is now. It was simply a dirty spot in north Mississippi, where people stopped in the state wanted to eventually put a university there.
Chris McAlilly 16:55
And it was a wilderness. It was kind of the frontier. So the guy that... Actually, Will, the guy that came, that founded this church came from South Carolina, his name was William Craig. And he ended up, it turned out there was a mission... Texas was a missionary conference of Mississippi, from about 1840 to 1843. And he ended up founding a lot of churches in Texas, and he became a senator in the Texas legislature, which is kind of interesting. But nevertheless, I do think it points to this sense of part of the DNA of Methodism, is the Gospel puts you in motion, and takes you to places that potentially other folks don't want to go. And so in that moment, it was the western frontier. And there was a nimbleness to early American Methodism, that allowed for, I think, a fair amount of... I mean, people were giving their lives to leave South Carolina, come to Mississippi and Mississippi for Texas. I mean, that's an intense thing to have done in 1840.
Will Willimon 18:02
Oh, absolutely. And it's, I think that's been us at our best, the Gospel in motion, as you've stated it. In Alabama, I used to never tire of telling the story of Matthew Sturdevant. Matthew Sturdevant, at annual conference, Charleston, South Carolina, is brand new to the circuit riders. And Bishop Asbury said, "Brother Sturdevant, you're assigned to the Natchez circuit." And everybody looked around, and Sturdevant looked around, and nobody seemed to have heard of it. So after conference ended, he went up to Asbury and he said, "Where is the Natchez circuit?" And Asbury said, "Brother Sturdevant, you are free to preach the Gospel from Georgia all the way to the Mississippi River and then down south to the Gulf of Mexico. God be with you. Get on your horse." So Sturdevant went out, spent a year, came back to Annual Conference. And Asbury--and the purpose of Annual Conference was to, you would render an account of the way the Holy Spirit had used you in mission. And Sturdevant came back, and Asbury said, "You have not found one heathen to baptize in an entire year. What in God's name have you been doing?" And he said, all those people out in that Alabama-Indian territory, he said, "They are the meanest, crudest, drunkest, terriblest people I've ever seen." And Asbury said, "Well, that's not our problem." And he said that the Lord still has plans for them. "I'm going to, I'm willing to send you back, one year." Two months later, he baptized three people at a tavern in what is now North Alabama, Huntsville, and that was the beginning of my Annual Conference. And, you know, that kind of gutsy... The Methodist circuit riders were called the Jesuits of Protestantism and all... That sense... I think we lost a lot when we changed from, Hey, open hearts, open minds, open doors, welcome. When we changed from being a church which said, we don't expect you to come to us, we'll go to you. And when it became more, we got to be more established, and we kind of fell into this thing about, hey, we're a really attractive group of people. Don't you want to join us? Well, the results speak for themselves. So I think, at our best... I'm thinking of a student I had up at... He's in Pennsylvania, and COVID wiped out much of his church because most of them in his church had black lung disease from working in coal mines, and anyway. He was saying... I said, "Oh, gee, what are you doing?" He said, "I'm having to learn to be an evangelist." He said, "Of course, which I don't know anything about since I graduated from Duke Divinity School." But he said, "I at least know how to..." And he said, "I'm gonna have to go out and find who needs to be a Methodist and doesn't know it." And with tears in my eyes I said, "One last Wesleyan left among us. God bless you. Thank you." So that mission... And our polity, I think it's just, it's genius to tell people, well, like you two guys, "Hey. We want you to subordinate your career, your preferences, your family, your marriage. We want all that subordinated to the mission of Jesus Christ, and his salvation of the world. And now, will you promise to do that? Kneel. I'm gonna lay hands on you." That is just such an un-American, amazing thing to do. And at our best, that's us. And our worst, about the best you can say we're just, you know, another kind of stolid, dying Protestant denomination. And that's uninteresting.
Chris McAlilly 22:52 Talk about the...
Eddie Rester 22:53
You know, one of the things...
Chris McAlilly 22:53 Oh, sorry, Eddie, go for it.
Eddie Rester 22:55
I was just thinking, whenever people talk about how that missionary fervor died, sometimes I wonder if when we changed from appointing pastors quarterly or annually, to when they settled into appointments in the early 20th century, and began to stay much longer. I always wonder how that began to change the culture of who we were, how we envisioned ourselves. Now it's not we're going to push out. Mississippi is going to become, is going to plant an Annual Conference in Texas. We began to... It's that whole sense of come to us. We've got a pastor that's gonna stay here for four or five years. Any thoughts on that? Or any reflections on that?
Will Willimon 23:40
Yeah, I mean, I think... My colleague across the hall, Curtis Freeman, as Baptists have studies at Duke, he will not let any of his students use the expression "parish pastor." He said, "We're Baptist. We don't do that kind of Anglican state church kind of stuff." You know, "The world is your parish," quote someone. And yeah, I think... And you know, until I read this biography of Asbury, "American Saint." Francis Asbury elevated itinerancy as a supreme theological principle. Asbury, and he gave one of his last, maybe his last big address was given a Nashville just for his death. And Asbury claimed that the church, originally bishops, were over a number of different congregations, and they traveled from place to place. But then after Constantine and all, and the church becomes respectable, the bishops suddenly settled down and had a diocese where they stayed in that diocese and all, and were responsible for that. For Asbury, that was the fall of the church. That's when the church fell into apostasy. And the church wandered in the wilderness with these stuffy, stay-at-home bishops that had one little geographical area, until God said, "Let there be American Methodism. Let there be American bishops." Thank you, Francis Asbury. And suddenly, the church was restored again. Of course, this is the one of the screwiest notions anybody could have. But for Asbury, this was his view of the church. And the more I think about it, I hear these days so much kind of stuff about the importance of locating, the importance of being where you're planted, the importance of staying in place, and you know, Wendell Berry loving the land and the place and all. Okay. The big problem with that is Jesus Christ. There's a reason all the Gospels portray Jesus as on a perpetual road trip and on this kind of breathless from one place to the next. Because as Karl Barth says, "Gott nicht ruht." God doesn't do Sabbaths. God doesn't do centering and balance and locating. God's on the move. God wants it all. So I think Methodists, we're due to reclaim that sense of God in motion.
Chris McAlilly 26:41
So let me... I want to push back on this because you've said this for years. I've heard you say it for a long time. And you didn't grow up... You weren't... I was, I think of the three of us, I'm the only person who grew up as a child in the interancy, and we moved from place to place. And I think that it did, there are a lot of good things about. I think I'm a person who's adaptable and flexible because of that. And I do think that it gave me a narrative in our family, that God will pick our family up and move us just like God picked up Abraham and told him to go to a land that he didn't know. And so that was helpful. But we tended, you know, I think in general, to move into nicer places with better school systems. And so there's this American dimension to... I don't know. Itenerancy, when it was adopted by Asbury, it was well suited to the cultural moment. It was a particular historical and cultural read, that both Wesley and Asbury offered. In the British context, it was helpful due to social mobility, due to kind of industrialization. In the American context, because of the spread of the Western frontier. It was very well suited to those moments. In this particular moment, I just, you know... I do think the Berry critique of American social mobility, which is a deeper critique of the way in which American society and capitalism are wedded together to form a particular kind of social mobility away from places like Mississippi. Right? So when I was growing up, I wanted nothing more than to get away from Mississippi. And Wendell Berry was one of the people that said, "No, you need to go back home. You don't need to come and be at some high, uppity church that Bishop Willimon wants you go to in Birmingham. You need to go back to Shannon, Mississippi." So that's, I do think that at a time when young people are more and more rootless, I wonder if this cultural moment calls for a different... You know, itinerancy is not sacrosanct. I do think it's rooted in Jesus. But I do think the tools and techniques of itinerancy may or may not be fitted to this cultural moment. So that's one pushback. The other, Will, is that apart from a brief sojourn to Alabama, you spent your entire career at Duke, man. You've been placed in one place and so let me push back on your story.
Will Willimon 29:19
Yeah. That's a good point. You know, Eddie, it's interesting. It took Chris only 20 years to get
the guts to--or whatever part of anatomy it is--to push back.
Chris McAlilly 29:34 [LAUGHTER]
Eddie Rester 29:34 [LAUGHTER]
Will Willimon 29:34
But I'm real proud of him. Good. He generally didn't have the kind of guts to, you know, say stuff to me face-to-face. Anyway. I think those are great points, Chris. I go into congregations where the only stable thing in that congregation is the pastor. The only person who knows everybody in the congregation is the pastor.
Chris McAlilly 29:44 [LAUGHTER]
Eddie Rester 30:03 Yeah.
Will Willimon 30:05
And that stability is important and also in a rootless, constantly on the move capitalist culture as you notice, when people say, you know, "I come to church to center somewhere, to touch base," great. I can understand that. And I also understand that generally the itenerancy system as I've experienced it, one, one could argue Methodism, in our lifetime has never had itenerancy, you know, certainly the way Asbury did it. But there have been real stresses, working spouses. I get into these situations saying, "No Pastor, you are perfect to lead the mission of this particular congregation. You've got everything they need." And then the pastor says, "Okay, just a word here. I owe $30,000 in student loans, to prepare for this church's ministry. My wife is currently making $22,000 a year more than I am. So basically, my wife is paying back my seminary loans. And so in a way, my wife is already an employee of the church. Um, if you move us to there, there's no way she can get a job there like this job." Hey, that all has to be taken into account. I would just say that, for all of us, Jesus Christ continues to be the problem, in that I think Jesus is maddeningly, at times wonderfully, itinerant. You know. But um, you know, I'm sad that Methodism is in the state it's in where people say, "We've got nothing. We love our congregation. We love our church. And we like our pastors. But we've got to leave because of bishops and because of the denomination, because of a drag queen in Indiana, we gotta leave. But by the way, we ain't leaving unless we can take the building and all the folding chairs and used hymnals and everything with us, oh, and the dishes out of the church kitchen. We got to take all of that with us. Because that is the thing that means the most to us. Oh, and by the way, we are very biblically committed. We believe in strict biblical authority." And I say to these characters, you know, where the heck is your biblical authority? Where is your Methodist justification for saying the big deal we're concerned about is taking our building with us. That just shows kind of a sad corruption of where we are. So yeah. And I think I'd say, Chris, you know, your argument about staying there. I think the justification for that argument is best, is missional, to say if your goal is to change a congregation, if your goal is to transform a neighborhood, you gotta be there. I was once serving a church, that I tried to get Chris to serve after me. Anyway. And we brought in a consultant. And the consultant said, "I see you have down on your goals for next year, where you would like to become a more inclusive church. You'd like to get in touch with your neighborhood. You're lying. No, you don't." And he said, I can tell you how to get back in touch with your neighborhood. Insist that everybody on your staff live within one mile of this church, and you get back in touch with your neighborhood. But 30 years ago, when you decided to move your parsonage out to suburbia, you decided to leave the neighborhood and the neighborhood took the message. They got it." So there is that, staying for that reason. Or I remember, like in larger churches, I think it takes time to talk people into stuff. It takes time for them to get to know you and your vision. And it takes time for them to trust you. So on the other hand, this will come as a shock to you, Chris. But I didn't actually volunteer to go to Alabama as their bishop. A committee sent me without any consultation at all. I actually think God was in it.
Chris McAlilly 35:41 Yeah.
Will Willimon 35:41
It was a beautiful thing. And it was, and part of the power of it was, they knew I didn't come from there. And they knew I wasn't staying long. And I knew I wasn't staying long. And so when they would say things to me, "Bishop, we're going to put this before the Annual Conference," and "Bishop, we're going to have to kind of educate them while we're doing this." And I said, "Well, that would be great. But I'm leaving here on August the 10th of next year. We ain't got time." I said, "The next Bishop, there's no way the next Bishop will take on this work. Get some good outta me while you got me before I'm out of here." And so. But I think, what does the mission of Jesus Christ require in our particular time and place? That's the question.
Chris McAlilly 36:37
That's the key question for sure.
Eddie Rester 36:38
That's the key question. As you were talking, I was thinking about a church that Duke sent me to serve as an intern at, one of my internships during the summer, which was one of the great gifts, being sent out into eastern North Carolina to the tobacco fields. And it was a small church. And the pastor said, "Great." He'd been there like seven years at the time. And he said, "Everybody here thinks the community is dying, and that there's nothing we can do." But then he pulled out the mission report, the mission insight report, that showed population. He said, actually, the population in a two mile circle around us has grown by 5,000 people."
Will Willimon 37:18 Wow.
Eddie Rester 37:19
And he said, "But what it is, it's the migrant workers who are settling down, but our people don't see them. They don't see them as someone that could be a part of the mission of the Church." And it was very, very convicting to me, that part of the issue, not just to the Methodist Church, but this is the issue in, I think, the western church right now is that we don't see who God has put in front of us. You know, the old ways that church is built, people walked to them. And so they built a front door. And most of those front doors are barely used now, because the parking lot's by the back door. The church in Oxford, the church where I am now, the building that they had, before they built this was pointed towards the neighborhood intentionally. And we've seemed to, we've lost that sense of we were actually supposed to look around and figure out how we serve the people right here, not just the people who left for the suburbs.
Chris McAlilly 38:20
Yeah, so maybe the key thread here is that what it is that Jesus does, and Jesus is on the move towards people. And there's this sense that Wesley moved towards people, that we're being sent to people. And so, you know, there's a direct line to that tobacco community in North Carolina, where they're migrants coming, there's a direct line back to Bristol, where you have folks coming in this agrarian manner, into an urban port city in England and Wesley preaches in the streets, to coal miners. There are economic factors that are moving populations in different directions. And the parish mindset and mentality of the Church of England in the 18th century and perhaps, you know, the kind of settled, established kind of middle class United Methodist mindset of the 20th and 21st century, is not equipped to be sent by Christ, by the mission of Christ to the people that it may be that that God is sending us. And so, in that regard, I take your point, you know, Eddie and Will, that there is a sense in which Jesus is an itinerant problem. Jesus is an itinerant Savior, and Jesus is always going to be the problem. And what's required is not a commitment to a sacrosanct itinerancy as a tool or technique of ministry, but we can't lose the sense that Jesus could pick us up and move us somewhere, and that we might be called to go to that place in response to the Gospel. I was talking to Cody, our producer the other day, just gave this presentation about United Methodist Church across the globe, including the number of missionaries. And he, one of the things that struck him about the presentation, and Cody is a good Baptist, you should know, but he's, you know, Baptists make the best Methodists. We all know that.
Eddie Rester 40:22
Emphasis on good. I'll give it emphasis on good.
Chris McAlilly 40:25 Yeah.
Eddie Rester 40:25 Mostly.
Chris McAlilly 40:25
And so he's on the road to perfection, and he'll get there one day. But nevertheless, he noticed how few missionaries there are in United Methodism. And I think, in part because we've lost the sense that Jesus might send us to a place or send us I guess, not to a place but to people, either close by or far away. So it's not about the geographical distance, but it's the Church on the move with Christ to offer healing, hope, salvation to individuals, and it's keeping open to that. And I do think that that's been lost along the way.
Will Willimon 41:04
Yeah, a mission mindset. We, that's in our DNA and our history, which I think can be recovered if we allowed that. You know, as I've talked to the few churches who will talk to me and clergy who've left the United Methodist Church, as we're writing my book about it. What impressed me was that a major reason that they are leaving the United Methodist Church is they're afraid that if they would stay in the United Methodist Church, they'd have to move. They'd have to change. And the idea is, "You love this church. You love it like it is. I'll tell you, the United Methodist Church is trying to destroy your church." So in a weird way, that idea is, you know, let's leave the United Methodist Church hoping that we can preserve things. I note in my book that I'm old enough to remember when conservative Bible believing Methodists referred to themselves as evangelicals. And then, you know, Donald Trump and everything ruined evangelicalism. So now they're not, they don't call themselves evangelicals. Now they call themselves traditionalist. And I say, "Wow, you really made a big move there." Because there's a whole big difference between saying, "I'm an evangelist, I got some good news. I'm going to share it. I gotta get out." And saying, "I'm a traditionalist. I got some stuff, a deposit from the past that I want to sit on, and I want to make darn sure you don't mess with it and tamper with it. I'm a traditionalist." To which I say, Methodists can't be traditionalist, because of the Holy Spirit. We always are in motion. And I gotta say, too, as Chris has reminded me, I have a limited experience with itenerancy, more than Chris does. But.
Eddie Rester 43:28
I can't wait to tell all my friends how Chris really insulted Will Willimon. This is gonna be great.
Will Willimon 43:33
No, I, you know, I mean, he's bigger than I am. And I'm very old and he doesn't believe in hurting senior citizens. But no, itenerancy in my own ministry, when I have been forced to make a move, whether it be geographical or theological, it's, to me it's a testimony to living God. And I wonder, I gotta preach at Duke Chapel Sunday, and I'm preaching on Paul's talking about the Christian life as he's experienced it in Philippians as a foot race. You know, "I'm pressing on. I'm future oriented. I'm leaving behind all that I had in life. It's nothing but a bunch of, a pile of scybala." And then I'm gonna tell them, "Boys and girls, you can't read Greek, but you know 'scybala' is a dirty word that you shouldn't be using. Don't be like Paul." It's just a pile of scybala. Anyway. But what an image of the Christian life and yet, a while back, I was at a Methodist Church and the preacher begins the service by saying, All right, let's take a moment and just center. Let's breathe. Can we breathe? Breathe in, breathe out. Let's just settle down. Settle down." And I'm looking around the congregation. I said, "Look, they already look half dead. They need to settle down more?" And...
Eddie Rester 45:15
They might not ever leave their pew.
Will Willimon 45:18
You're telling me these people are under stress? And that's why they got to come to the church? They're already sucking Social Security dry. It's the young people who ought to be under stress. So I think, yeah, I remember a student in class, we were talking, we had worked through the Gospel of Luke, and we were in Mark. And the student said, "I wonder why Mark had to put everything in fast motion? Everything is sped up. One of his favorite words is 'immediately.'" And I said, you know, "Isn't it interesting. For some reason, Mark felt, 'I've got to increase the sense of urgency in my church. We've got to move faster.'" Well, I just think that's something we need to do. And by the way, I mean, what's so weird is somebody my age talking like this. Because I've asked myself, do I preach a lot of boring sermons I preach? Do I talk the way I talk and do I recognize the certain theological virtues because I'm a Methodist, so I'm preaching to people over 60? Is that... I know what it's like to preach to people under 30. And I kind of think maybe the Gospel, maybe it has particular resonance with people, when you got Jesus coming out, says, "Who wants to engage in some risky behavior? Who wants to be have a near death experience this weekend? Who wants to tell Mama and Daddy, 'Goodbye, to hell with you. I'm hitting the road with a bunch of guys on a road trip, don't know where we're going. And I don't know when we'll...'" You know, maybe the Christian faith is a kind of a young people's faith. And therefore, when old people like me practice it, we've got to be willing to be in for a bumpy ride or to be made uncomfortable.
Chris McAlilly 47:49
Yeah, I do think the thing that I think about is, you know, what Paul was able to do... I mean, he says, you can't out Jewish me, right?
Will Willimon 47:59 Yeah.
Chris McAlilly 48:00
You can't out Jewish me. But the questions are, you know, what is it that needs to be thrown out? You know, what do we need to let go of that's no longer serving? And so for him, you know, particularly I think about Galatians, he says, you know, don't worry. These folks that are circumcising, they're boasting in your flesh... You know, it's just like, man, this is like church growth on steroids here. And that needs to be thrown out, you know, "For freedom Christ has set you free," you know, get about this... The new circumstances of the Gospel in motion to the Gentiles necessitates letting go of these ritual and customary requirements of Judaism. A similar kind of thing can be said in the cultural moment of 18th century England. John Wesley is saying this parish system is breaking down. The Gospel is sending us out in a new way to a new group of people, in a similar kind of way. But the questions are always what needs to be kept and what needs to be let go of. What's serving us well, and what's no longer serving us? So it's really not like, is it itenerancy or not? It's just what's the current moment require? You know, and what is it the Gospel of Jesus Christ is? If we subordinate everything else to that, then what needs to go? And you know, I think we could probably all put a long list. And then also, what's going to serve us well in the future? I think that's ultimately what I'll take away from this conversation. What about you, Eddie?
Eddie Rester 49:32
I was just thinking, you know, Will, every now and then Chris hands me a book which I determine not to read, except I did finally pick up a book that he gave me years ago, from Luke Timothy Johnson, "Scripture & Discernment." And in there, he says, and I've been thinking on this for the last few weeks, "We must let go of any fantasy concerning the church as a stable, predictable, well regulated organization. If a church is truly the place in the world where the existence of God is brought to the level of narrative discernment, then the church will always be disorderly."
Will Willimon 50:06
Well, that's a great line. Yeah. We... Well, I think I've got that book. I'm gonna do that in needlepoint and frame it, you know, and put it out on the front door. What a great word. I mean, it's a great word. And it's so obvious. You know, when people say, "I've just never seen the church more divided than it is today." And I say, well, then you haven't read 1 and 2 Corinthians, have you? You know, come on. Or somebody from the errant new denomination will say to me, "I'm just so tired of the arguments. I'm just so tired of the disagreements in the body." And I said, "And you actually think you have just formed a church where there won't be any of that? If St. Paul couldn't do it. I know, you can't do it." Come on. It's called church. And, you know, how can we get a church where we're all on the same page, and we all agree on some core principles that will keep us from ever having a misunderstanding or an argument? I said, we can get a church like that. First thing, you need to be out of it. I can get a church like that. Leave. And then I'll have to follow you and everybody else. Well, um... So that's a great quote, and a reminder. I think, like, in the present moment of the United Methodist Church, we see the difficulty you get when you get a bunch of clergy, church leaders, bishops, and all who really have difficulty having an argument. They really flee from painful, uncomfortable conversations and all. And I've been appalled by the Methodists who've said to me, "We're going to be a better church without all these people. I am so... We had the sweetest Annual Conference. It was just love and we all agreed and we just it was just wonderful." And I said "Well, good for you. You just gave away my home church that introduced me to Jesus, founded by Francis Asbury, so you could be more comfortable at a church meeting. Well, good for you." Sorry.
Chris McAlilly 52:44
No, you're fine. I think, I do think, Will, you're gonna have to, if you want to be more relevant with the kids these days, you're gonna have to not needlepoint that quotation, but get it tattooed. And so I think that's gonna have to be your next move.
Eddie Rester 52:58 TikTok. Put it out on TikTok.
Will Willimon 53:00 Chris, do you have tattoos?
Chris McAlilly 53:02
Heck, no, I don't have tattoos. I'm not relevant with the kids these days. I mean, come on.
Come on, man. No, I don't.
Eddie Rester 53:08
His wife's not going to let him get tattoos.
Chris McAlilly 53:09
I don't want to get a tattoo. Why would? I don't want a tattoo, man. I don't want it. I don't. I don't want that. That's not me, man.
Will Willimon 53:15
Your mother wouldn't approve.
Chris McAlilly 53:17
She would totally wouldn't approve. But I do think you know, what I hear from you is that Jesus may offer you some opportunities to engage in some risky behavior. So maybe I need to engage in a bit more risky behavior. Will, we gotta shut it down, man. We gotta move on to the next thing. This has been awesome. Thanks so much for joining us.
Will Willimon 53:40
Yeah. Hey, I got a book coming out on Advent. I thought, you know, I look at you guys as like cheap advertisement, and so...
Chris McAlilly 53:51 That's what we are. That's it.
Eddie Rester 53:52
What's it? What's the name of the book? What's coming out?
Will Willimon 53:55
It's "Heaven and Earth: Advent and Incarnation." And so, I did a podcast about it this week. But nevertheless, thank you guys. We do take heart in your work. And maybe the best thing about the present moment, as far as my church, my denomination is concerned, is maybe we're having a lot of conversations that are long overdue to reclaim the core, to reclaim the spirit, the heart of the Methodist way of being Christian. And if that happens, then that's all good.
Chris McAlilly 54:43
Yeah. I think the Lord's up to something and probably will start by engaging the story of Christ once again, you know, with the incarnation and Advent. We'll have to have you back to just talk specifically about that.
Will Willimon 54:57
I'm preaching in Goodson Chapel, Divinity School chapel, tomorrow and got, you know, the wicked tenants in the vineyard, but I'm quoting a student. I was ranting with this student about, you know, the Global Methodist Church and the lies and deceit and the separation and all and he said, "I'm kind of surprised to hear you say that, because you're the one that's always been negative about the Council of Bishops and the Book of Discipline and everything." He said, you know, "Did it ever occur to you maybe the Lord's behind some of this?" And I said, "What?!" And he said, "Maybe the Lord agrees with you about a lot of this stuff. Only difference between you and the Lord, the Lord is actually doing something about it." And I said, "Get out of my office." Yeah. Okay.
Eddie Rester 55:57 Thank you, Will.
Chris McAlilly 55:58 Great to talk.
Eddie Rester 55:58
Hope you have a great day. Enjoy your time at UNC.
Will Willimon 56:01 Okay. Bye bye.
Chris McAlilly 56:01 See you, man.
Eddie Rester 56:04
[OUTRO] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, the best way to help us is to like, subscribe, or leave a review.
Chris McAlilly 56:10
If you would like to support this worked financially or if you have an idea for a future guest, you can go to theweightpodcast.com. [END OUTRO]