0022 - The Weight - Brian Zahnd - “America: Empire or Exile”

Show Notes:

Critiquing popularized Christianity from within the church is not always an easy thing to do, especially when such critique extends to American ideals held near and dear by many Christians. For many pastors, fear of backlash and congregational abandonment can be enough to stifle any attempt to challenge social norms ingrained within Evangelical culture. 

Brian Zahnd is no stranger to this struggle, yet has continued to respond to the American exceptionalism and political indoctrination that he perceives has tainted the witness of the Church. A product of the Jesus Movement, a charismatic revival of evangelicalism in North America, Zahnd planted what was once one of the fastest-growing congregations in America, Word of Life Church. In 2004, Zahnd experienced a personal awakening that led him to drastically change the trajectory of his congregation from the “excesses of the charismatic movement” and towards an understanding of the Kingdom of Christ “in juxtaposition to the Empire of America.” Zahnd has continued to be a thought leader in this effort as an author, social media presence, and speaker. 

Brian spoke with Eddie and Chris about his personal transformation from conservative evangelicalism to what he calls the “biblical Gospel of peace.” He uses the narrative of his life and the evangelical movement to offer a wholehearted critique of the marriage of civil religion and the American church and the ways it can inhibit faithfulness to the call of Christ. Though Zahnd’s ideas may rub against the grain of the beliefs of some, it offers an important perspective to consider in the discernment of faithful witness in the United States.

The Weight - Afterthoughts:

We've realized that a lot of great conversation actually happens AFTER we say goodbye to our guests and turn the microphones off. So, we decided to turn the mics back on (and a camera) and create a new segment called, Afterthoughts.

This will live on our new YouTube channel and you can find our Afterthoughts on this episode NOW!

Resources:

Water to Wine: Some of My Story chronicles the story of Zahnd’s life and the disenchantment with popular Christianity that led him to risk everything to pursue a more faithful vision of faith.

https://www.amazon.com/Water-Wine-Some-My-Story/dp/0692569189

Postcards from Babylon discusses the counter-cultural nature of the early Christian movement, the failure of American Christianity to emulate it, and the challenge posed to believers to embrace the daring nature of Christ that can “turn the world upside down.”

https://www.amazon.com/Postcards-Babylon-Church-American-Exile-ebook/dp/B07M5HJ5XB

Follow Brian Blog: https://brianzahnd.com/

Follow Brian on Twitter: https://twitter.com/BrianZahnd?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Follow Brian on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/BrianZahnd/

Full Transcript:

Eddie Rester : 0:00

I'm Eddie Rester.

Chris McAlilly : 0:01

I'm Chris McAlilly.

Eddie Rester : 0:03

Welcome to The Weight. We're glad that you're here today listening with us. We've got a great guest.

Chris McAlilly : 0:10

His name is Brian Zahnd.

Eddie Rester : 0:11

His name is Brian Zahnd. You said that a lot today.

Chris McAlilly : 0:13

Yes. It's great. I enjoyed this conversation. I've seen this guy out and about on the Twitter, dropping comments about Bob Dylan or the empire or America or whatever. He's a voice in American Christianity that I think is interesting and important to listen to. We came across him first through a friend of ours, Rex Harsin. Rex is a filmmaker in town--Rex Harsin Films, if you want to check him out--and he connected us with Brian and has done some work with him in the past.

Eddie Rester : 0:52

Brian offers us, helps us with a critique of the close tie of American Christianity to the civil religion of America. And I think it's a helpful critique during an election year, so that we can maintain, maybe maintain, our Christianity.

Chris McAlilly : 1:17

I think that some people that listen to this episode are not gonna like it. That's okay.

Eddie Rester : 1:22

Some people may cheer.

Chris McAlilly : 1:23

Some people are gonna cheer. Either way, I would love to, I guess just encourage you to read through to the very...not read through, listen through to the very end and to allow his story to at least impact the way you think about things. It's definitely not straightforward, "I came to this easily." This is a decade's long faith journey. And I think it's worth hearing the guy out.

Eddie Rester : 1:53

He came to a place in his life where he talked about--and its in his book, "Water to Wine"-- where he talked about kind of the grape juice/kiddie box Christianity versus the wine, the best wine, and he felt that move happen for him.

Chris McAlilly : 2:10

You heard it here first: Eddie Rester's moving from grape juice to wine 

Eddie Rester : 2:13

You heard it here first. 

Chris McAlilly : 2:15

in his communion services when they come back. When you come back from COVID, just be ready for that. Is that right? You're dropping that here today.

Eddie Rester : 2:21

I can neither confirm nor deny anything that you say about me.

Chris McAlilly : 2:26

Well, we're glad that you're here for The Weight, and we hope that you enjoy the conversation.

Eddie Rester : 2:33

[INTRO] Let's be honest, there's some topics that are too heavy for 20 minutes sermon. There are issues that need conversation, not just explanation.

Chris McAlilly : 2:40

We believe that the church is called to engage in a way that honors the weightiness and importance of these topics for how we live faithfully today. We'll cover everything from art to mental health, social injustice to the future of the church.

Eddie Rester : 2:52

If it's something that culture talks about, we need to be talking about it too. [END INTRO]

Chris McAlilly : 2:58

We're here today with Brian Zahnd, the founder and lead pastor of Word of Life Church. A writer, Brian has written several books: "Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God," "Water to Wine," "Farewell to Mars," and a number of others. We are so glad that you're here today, Brian. Thanks for coming on the podcast.

Brian Zahnd : 3:18

Well, it's my pleasure. Good to be with you.

Eddie Rester : 3:20

We're glad to have you. I know that some folks listening may be familiar with a few of your books, but one of the ones that a friend of ours, a common friend named Rex, handed me several years ago was "Water to Wine," which really shared kind of a chunk of your story as pastor when you hit about 45 years old. So for folks, help them kind of to understand you. Share a bit of that story. What's been your journey over the last decade or so?

Brian Zahnd : 3:48

Well, I'm gonna back way up to tell the story. I'll try not to take too long. I'm a product of the Jesus movement. I mean, that's really where I encountered Jesus. People know what the Jesus movement is anymore, but it was this kind of counterculture, hippies-finding-Jesus-in-the-70s sort of phenomenon that was really quite significant. And so that's where I came from. And just overnight, I went from being a high school Zepplin freak to the high school Jesus freak. And by the time I was 17, I was leading a ministry. It was a coffee house ministry is what we called them back then, which really meant it was a music bit, because the Jesus movement was really driven by the music. And so I had this, you know, this essentially a music venue that I was leading at 17 that eventually just turned into a church. You know, people say, "Well, you know, you planted a church," but no, I really didn't. We started a coffee house that turned into a church. And we officially became a church by the time I was 22, but I was really doing the work of a pastor long before that. So I tell people, look, I've been doing the work of a pastor longer than I've been an adult. 

Eddie Rester : 5:07

Wow. Yeah. 

Brian Zahnd : 5:07

Which is absurd, which is ridiculous. But it's true. It's what happened. And so that's how I got started. There wasn't even like a start. It just... it just happened. And the Catacombs Coffee House became Word of Life Church. This is way back in, you know, November of 1981, so a very long time ago. And we stayed small for about seven, eight years. And then we started growing, and then we started growing a lot. And it was kind of remarkable. And by the time we're in the 90s, the church was quite big. And by the metrics that Americans like to measure success in ministry, I had it made right? Big church and all of that business.

Eddie Rester : 5:52

You were one of the fastest growing churches in America at one point.

Brian Zahnd : 5:56

At one point we were, yeah, by those that like to keep score. That's what they told us. And so, around age 40, really right at age 40, I had just had this, this growing dis-ease. I just thought, like, you know, everything's going great. But I just felt like Jesus deserved a better Christianity than what I knew, and I didn't know where to go. So I just started reading church fathers, which I had never done before. Reading philosophy, which I'd done a little bit of. But I was in a charismatic world, you know, and charismatics aren't supposed to read philosophy. [LAUGHS] But so I started reading that kind of stuff, just on the sly, you know. I'm reading touristics, reading philosophy. But it reached a crisis point in 2004, when I was 45 years old, and I just thought, "something's got to give, here." Again, everything is great, as far as the church and all of that sort of thing. There's no crisis. Everything's fine. But in my own soul I just I felt like, is this it? Is this really what I've signed up for? Because I felt like what had happened was I started off as a radical Jesus freak and ended up as a Republican with a fish sticker on my SUV. You know, there's gotta be something more. And so I had a real... I began the first 22 days--this is strange. This will sound odd. I don't recommend this, but it's the story.--I began the first 22 days of 2004 doing nothing but praying pretty much all day. I didn't even know how to pray back then. So that was hard. But I would pray. I would sleep at night, preach at the appointed time, and that's about all I ever did for 22 days. I didn't eat. I just drank water. I got down to 130 pounds. People thought I was dying. I kind of thought I was dying. And in one sense I was dying, the whole first half of my life was dying. And I came out on the other side of that experience in 2004 with some keys, maybe with some directions, with some signposts to forge a new way ahead for our church. And I began to lead our church into a very different place. I remember in August of that year, I announced that we were unpacking my bags and moving on from the charismatic movement. Now I did it with enough rhetorical flair, enough, you know, preacher skills that the church applauded, until I actually did it. 

Eddie Rester : 8:45

'Til they saw what that meant. 

Brian Zahnd : 8:46

And then they weren't this excited. And as I began to move away from some of the excesses, I would describe, of the charismatic movement, and those and some other things caused me a little bit of trouble, but the big problem was when I began to really perceive the kingdom of Christ in juxtaposition with the empire of America, and began to understand that America is not a kind of biblical Israel, but a kind of biblical Babylon, and began to say so and began to uncouple any allegiance we might have with, you know, the Republican Party and religious nationalism and civic religion and religious right and all of that. I was able to... I was able to lose 1000 people, maybe more, and was never again one of the fastest growing churches in America. [LAUGHS] And so we went through it, and that was very painful. It took us about 10 years, let's say 2004 to 14, to transition our church. And as I look back on that period of time, that decade, that for that 10 years it's strange, because it was simultaneously one of the most exciting times--I'm gonna say "our" because my wife Peri was very much on this journey with me. I mean, we were together in this. So it was the most exciting time of our ministry lives, and also the most painful. We were so excited about what we were discovering, and, you know, discovering a new, rich, deep, historically rooted faith that we thought, "Okay, this this is something we can hold on to for the rest of our lives." And we were making new discoveries about a rich faith, rooted in the great tradition and loving what we were finding, not really even wrestling with, "Was this crazy or not?" We knew it wasn't crazy. But losing people that we had done life with, that maybe we had baptized and married and baptized their children, maybe married their children, and they were leaving and angry at us and saying that we're back slidden. And that was always the strangest thing to me. I thought, "No, I feel like I've front slidden. I have no sense of being far from the Lord. I feel like I really, for the first time, I've perceived the kingdom of Christ." But they didn't understand it that way. And so they're leaving, and that causes great pain. One of the interesting things that happened, and it happened repeatedly, was that people that were my age, let's say in their 40s-50s, at that time, they were leaving and their adult children were staying. And I thought, "Hmm. That's interesting."

Eddie Rester : 11:34

That's interesting.

Brian Zahnd : 11:35

So their kids were saying, "Mom and Dad, you can do what you want, but we're staying. It's something like this that's keeping us in Christianity."

Chris McAlilly : 11:42

Can you talk a little bit more about the charismatic movement? So from the Jesus movement into just more broadly, the charismatic tradition, or the Pentecostal tradition? I do think that it's interesting. It sounds like that there's an intellectual journey from 

Brian Zahnd : 11:59

Right. Yeah, no doubt.

Chris McAlilly : 12:02

So I guess for folks that aren't as familiar with the charismatic tradition, you know, we we sit firmly within kind of boring, mainline Methodism. 

Eddie Rester : 12:13

Methodism, yeah. 

Chris McAlilly : 12:14

But there are a lot of people within Methodism right now that are very interested in kind of the charismatic, Pentecostal end of things. I guess, what do you see is the benefit? And I guess what are some of the excesses of charismatic churches?

Brian Zahnd : 12:27

Well, okay, so let me back up. The Pentecostal tradition, of course, as you will know, is rooted within the Wesleyan tradition. 

Eddie Rester : 12:34

Exactly. Camp meetings.

Brian Zahnd : 12:35

Yeah, it's one of the branches within Wesley. Now, charismatic's different though. Charismatic begins in late 60s, early 70s. And it's not a... it doesn't really spawn denominations, other than maybe you would describe Calvary Chapel and Vineyard. Rather, it seems to be a phenomenon that happened across the entire spectrum of the body of Christ. So there's a very pronounced charismatic Catholic renewal. And then it was also touching mainline Protestant churches, etc, etc. A lot of non-denominational churches, which is what Word of Life is--and by the way I don't even believe in, but it's what happened, so I don't know what to do about it--came out of that. And Karl Rahner, German Catholic theologian, he described the charismatic movement as mysticism for the masses--in a positive way. He was, you know, affirming it. And so what it did was... as I look back on the early days of the charismatic movement, I do so fondly. And people were discovering a God who speaks, a God who can be experienced, a God who is not simply encountered in thought or in ritual, but in some sort of, and I think the proper word might be "mystical" experience or "experience in the spirit." And so, you know, this is you know, prophecy and tongues and a word from the Lord and just an energy in worship and the sense of the nearness and presence of God. So I described the charismatic movement as good until it wasn't. What happened was, is it got infected with American prosperity gospel and kind of a celebrity television Christian-driven culture. And that's when it became cheesy and American and made-for-TV and made to make money. And I think the Spirit then kind of just moved on. Although I wouldn't say that about every aspect of a church that would describe themselves as charismatic, but it seems to be a lot. There's a lot of good fruit from that. I mean, Pope Francis comes from the Charismatic Renewal in Argentina. So, I'm kind of at the point in my life--and by the way, if our listeners are trying to figure it out, I'm 61 years old. So, I don't know, I won't leave people in the dark on that. "So how old is that guy?" 61.--In one sense, it's very accurate to say that the big transition that began in 2004, both personally and then it affects the church I'm leading, was a theological journey. And so I became extremely serious about getting up to speed on academic theology. And I read voraciously. I look back and think "I could never do that again," where I was reading maybe six hours a night.

Eddie Rester : 15:40

I look at that list of theologians you're reading. I was like, Oh my goodness.

Brian Zahnd : 15:43

Oh, yeah. I'm reading Bart and Hauerwas

Eddie Rester : 15:48

Yoder 

Brian Zahnd : 15:48

and Yoder and Gerard and Hans Urs von Balthasar

Chris McAlilly : 15:55

Woo!

Brian Zahnd : 15:56

Walter Brueggemann. 

Chris McAlilly : 15:57

Balthasar!

Brian Zahnd : 15:58

David Bentley Hart. Yeah, all those people and...

Chris McAlilly : 16:02

I love. It sounds like you kind of went on a personal... I mean, you went to seminary but you didn't pay to anybody.

Brian Zahnd : 16:07

It was my own 10-year, late night seminary. 

Chris McAlilly : 16:11

Yeah.

Brian Zahnd : 16:11

I said 10 years, it was really more a period of about three years where I was reading that intensely. And it changed me, and it was good. I don't regret it at all. But I feel like... Now see, now see, I'm stepping into where I'm really writing and thinking right now, and I didn't mean to do that. But I do feel like there is something to a second naivete, a second innocence, where you can... that some of that stuff I had to let go of; I think I did have to let go of it. I can kind of pick it up a little bit more now. And some of the stuff I've been writing and preaching lately is it sounds more charismatic than anything I've done in 10 years or 15 years. But I think it's good. I think in a good way.

Chris McAlilly : 16:54

What do you see? So you kind of have this personal journey. It's also the journey that your church was on

Brian Zahnd : 17:00

Right

Chris McAlilly : 17:00

under your leadership, I guess as you look out more broadly at the landscape of American Christianity right now, what do you see? What do you perceive that's happening?

Brian Zahnd : 17:12

You know, American Christianity is a broad term. David Bentley Hart likes to quibble, "I wouldn't assume the Christianity ever made it to America." [LAUGHS] But I'm not gonna say that. I think, though, there is the most visible and vocal expression of American Christianity, which is some version of American evangelicalism. And when I look at that, I see something that makes me sometimes angry, but most of the time profoundly sad. I've never described myself as an evangelical. That's never been a term of self designation I've used because I was a Jesus freak. And then I was a charismatic. And evangelical men, I know we got a Southern Baptist in the room, but then as Southern Baptists and I wasn't that. But what happened was the culture wars drove everybody under the same big evangelical tent. And "evangelical" ends up becoming more of a political designation than any kind of theological, you know, indicator. What I'm seeing is a complete collapse of fidelity. I know that saying it strongly, but I, look, I've never called myself an evangelical but I understand evangelicals and evangelicalism in America as well as anybody. I mean, I've had a front row seat, backstage pass to it for 40 years.

Eddie Rester : 18:41

How would you define that term, just pretty broadly for folks that may not be a part of that conversation?

Brian Zahnd : 18:47

Yeah, evangelicalism is a conservative aspect of Protestantism that historically has stressed things like this, a personal experience with Jesus Christ. So it's American evangelicalism that gives us language like personal Savior, that sort of thing. So a personal conversion experience or a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, a strong emphasis, a high view of scriptures with a strong emphasis on the Bible. I would say those two things, probably: a high view of scripture, strong emphasis on on the Bible, and a personal encounter with Jesus Christ. That each individual can have their own encounter and experience with Jesus Christ. So it's related to revivalism and 

Chris McAlilly : 19:37

New birth. Conversion. 

Brian Zahnd : 19:38

Yeah, born again, that sort of thing. That's evangelicalism. At least what it was. And then, evangelicalism decided to go into politics. And evangelicals seem to do so with a stunning naivete. Politics is a dirty world. It just is. I mean, it's a world of compromise. It's Machiavellian. It's not a nice place. Now, you know, it may be necessary. We can have discussions on political theology and how the church should be informed by that. But what happened is led by mostly Jerry Falwell 

Eddie Rester : 20:25

Jerry Falwell. I was about to bring his name up.

Brian Zahnd : 20:27

And Pat Robertson with a little bit of influence, more behind the scenes, by Francis Schaeffer. American evangelicals decided that what they needed to do was make abortion illegal. Well, that's not really true. I'm starting to tell the story in debt but see, I've already gone astray here. That's not true, because I remember Roe v. Wade. I was a kid. But I remember it being nothing in my Southern Baptist Church in Missouri. I remember people saying, "That's a Catholic thing. That's a Catholic issue. We don't care about that." But it was Falwell, and then a little bit later Robertson with his Christian coalition, you know, Moral Majority Coalition, because you had to get the charismatic stand on it and charismatics don't like Jerry Falwell, and so Pat Robertson became their guy. And that became the issue. It had already been decided, so what they had to do is they had to overturn Roe v. Wade. And that becomes the issue. And so they step into the arena. And they do so with this naivete that Republicans are the good guys, Democrats are the bad guys. And within a couple of decades, the American Evangelical Church has become a little more than the religious wing of the Republican Party. And they have, even more significantly, they have fully embraced the deception of American civil religion. Now, every--we can use the term empire, we can use the term superpower, whatever term you want to use. It's always been a problem for the church, when it's been hosted by a superpower or empire that ostensibly is favorable to Christianity. And what happens then is the church gets tempted to serve as a chaplain to their current iteration of Caesar, rather than to maintain absolute rigid fidelity that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Eddie Rester : 22:33

One of the things that, I mean, you talk about that, and this is a phenomenon that goes all the way back to Constantine. 

Brian Zahnd : 22:41

Right, right. 

Eddie Rester : 22:41

People don't realize that, you know, if you read the history of Christianity, we were kind of this thing that existed that grew unbelievably by the power of the Spirit through those first few centuries. But until Constantine, and we can debate whether or not he had a conversion experience or not with his dream, but until that point the church had absolutely no power, no security, nothing until it kind of got wedded to the empire at that point.

Brian Zahnd : 23:14

Yeah.

Chris McAlilly : 23:14

That the whole conversation for me... so I, you know, I think this idea of America as being hostile to Christian identity or mission was one that it's just completely unfamiliar to me, when I was growing up. It never even struck me as something that I ought to be thinking about. So within Methodism, Stanley Hauerwas and Will Willimon wrote a book 25, 30 years ago called "Resident Aliens." And I read that book, as I was going into seminary. Right before, it was the Obama-McCain election. I don't know. It was, there was something about being in Atlanta at that time as Obama was elected and the city was just completely elated. I was serving as a pastor in a little country church out in the county, everybody I was pastoring voted for McCain. Everybody I went to school with in Atlanta voted for Obama. So I just had this, like, whiplash every day, on the commute. And I just found myself, you know, just completely... I don't know, kind of disillusioned by the whole political game at that time, because I realized... I don't know. I had this moment of realization in my 20s that even though Obama got elected, of course, that was a moment of great representative power for the city of Atlanta, particularly Black Atlanta. 

Brian Zahnd : 24:44

Sure.

Chris McAlilly : 24:45

But there were issues of poverty that still exist to this day. There's just a range of different things that I was coming to realize. That the welfare dimensions of the nation-state, we're having difficulty kind of meeting. I think the place that Willimon and Hauerwas begin, though, is far away from, like, broad empire and, you know, poverty and all these things. They begin with a Sunday evening, I think maybe in South Carolina, when they realize on Sunday afternoon that they could go as youth to the movies. Whoo. Watch out. Culture is encroaching into

Eddie Rester : 25:27

holy space

Chris McAlilly : 25:28

the holy and sacred space of Sunday afternoon and evening. And it was the first idea that the culture, I guess, that the habitat for American Christianity might not actually be aligned as closely with the ends towards which the church might want to go, as they had hoped. And so there's a choice there. You can fight back or you can say, "I'm out."

Brian Zahnd : 25:54

Yeah, the last 10 years, I've... I started to say I've been traveling a lot. Let's say last nine and a half years--last six months, I haven't gone anywhere. But 

Chris McAlilly : 26:05

Same. 

Brian Zahnd : 26:05

I've been speaking a lot in Western Europe, in Christian settings, Spain, Portugal, France, Germany, UK, Ireland. And these are thoroughly secular, post-Christian nations now, where the church more or less exists as a tiny subculture. It's there. You know, I can take you to good churches that are vibrant, energetic, but they are in no way indicative of the wider culture. They have to live in a kind of counterculture way. Then we think of America as being not like that. But I don't know. I might want to push back on that. I think America is far more secular than what we pretend. What's happened is, is American civil religion is still so present. And by "civil religion," we mean where the nation itself becomes the true object of our faith. Now, a Christian can't come right on and say that because they would recognize that as idolatry, so they try to disguise it. But America is... America's a behemoth. It's so big, so influential that America, when I say the word "America," I am simultaneously talking about four things at once. First of all, yes, there is the nation state of America, okay with, you know, the 50 states and all that. There's the nation of America, but America is also a culture that is truly global. I mean, everywhere I go, you know, I see McDonald's, Burger King and all of that. 

Eddie Rester : 27:46

Watch the NBA. 

Brian Zahnd : 27:47

Yep, exactly. So it's a nation. It's a culture. It's an empire. And here's what I mean by that. I'm not throwing that word around loosely. It's not an empty pejorative. By empire, I mean this: wealthy, powerful nations who believe they have a divine right to rule other nations and a manifest destiny to shape history according to their agenda. God loves nations, according to what I see in scripture, but He's opposed to empire. And this is a consistent theme, literally from Genesis to Revelation. So we can talk more about that if you like in a moment, but empires run into trouble because they claim for themselves what God has promised to his son Jesus Christ. So they come into conflict. And then fourthly, America is a religion. So America is four things. It's a nation. It's a culture. It's an empire. It's a religion. As a nation and culture, America is a mixed bag, but there is plenty to celebrate. There is much that is admirable about America, the nation and the culture. Again, it's a mixed bag. You can find the positives and negatives, but there's plenty to celebrate.

Eddie Rester : 29:05

Right.

Brian Zahnd : 29:05

As an empire, though, that's when the church becomes a rival to the Lordship of Jesus Christ for the church. And as a religion, it's completely idolatrous. Now, I don't know, you know, what our listeners might think about me saying that America is religion, if that sounds shocking to them, but just think about it. I mean, it's really stunningly obvious if you can just take a step back. It is a religion complete with sacred texts, with creation myths, with founding fathers. We have our patristics. We have our icons, and we have holy days and holy ground, sacred gestures that, you know, you would have to make in public or you're going to be in trouble. All of that sort of thing. It has all of the components of religion. You have in the Capitol rotunda in Washington, DC, you have the apotheosis of Washington on the dome. "Apotheosis," to make a god of. This is depicting George Washington having ascended into heaven and surrounded by other Greek gods so that George Washington now has taken his place among the gods, as, you know, the sort of patron god of the United States. And so I think that probably the biggest challenge facing American pastors today is that we are tasked with trying to make disciples of people who are already thoroughly discipled into a rival religion, but they don't even know it. They can't quite see it. And so to pull them away from an idolatrous religion where America is, in fact, the object of worship into a radical allegiance to Jesus Christ, that is hard work. You can lose your church. You can lose your job. There's no perfect way of doing it. You have to constantly negotiate how you're going to do that, as a pastor in the present culture. I have nothing but mercy and compassion for pastors these days that are trying to maintain fidelity to Jesus Christ at this time because it's almost an impossible time.

Chris McAlilly : 31:16

It's hard time to be a pastor. Let's just put that out there. 

Eddie Rester : 31:18

For every reason

Brian Zahnd : 31:21

I mean, we're dealing with at least four crises simultaneously. Okay, there's a global health crisis. There's a corresponding economic crisis that churches feel particularly in many ways. There is a, I don't know how else to say it other than a political crisis, where I feel like the nation is verging on dysfunction, as evidenced by how poorly we've handled this pandemic. And then there is suddenly a day of reckoning in the form of a, I don't know what to call it, maybe a day of reckoning regarding racial injustice. And any one of those, any one of those, would present real challenges for a pastor. But pastors have to deal with all four at the same time, plus whatever just, you know, run-of-the-mill, garden variety crises that come up in the life of pastoring. You know, you still have to deal with those, too.

Eddie Rester : 32:10

You know, I remember pastoring, I was in South Mississippi when Hurricane Katrina hit. And I thought to myself, "Man, I'll never face something as challenging as this again." And, uh... I was wrong. Let me...

Chris McAlilly : 32:24

Better be careful with that. 

Eddie Rester : 32:25

I want to back up and maybe connect to what you just said. I want to back up in the conversation. When you talked about the naivete of the evangelicals, and it was really

Brian Zahnd : 32:36

Yeah. 

Eddie Rester : 32:37

the early 80s, really morphed by the late 80s, the Moral Majority, you talked about naivete. What was naive?

Brian Zahnd : 32:47

What was naive is that politics is not a dirty world. And that it consistents of good guys and bad guys. Elephants good. Donkeys bad. That it's as simple as that. Or that if we can just get enough ours in Washington DC, then the will of God can be accomplished in America. I mean, that is just so... I mean "naive" is the right word, is the nice word I can use, you know.

Eddie Rester : 33:15

The way I viewed it, I was in high school then moving into college. I'm a little bit younger than you. Chris is a whole lot younger than you. 

Brian Zahnd : 33:24

Yeah, you're all younger than me. 

Eddie Rester : 33:26

So, but I just remember thinking at what point does the power corrupt? The idea of power that's drawing them in really begin to undo whatever good they sought to do. And, you know, there was a religious leader that that came out a while back a year or so ago, that said, "That's politics. It shouldn't be judged according to Christianity's standards. I just thought, "how did we get here?" Where this Christian leader could say that we don't have to worry about the morals and ethics. 

Brian Zahnd : 34:05

Well, what happened was is that character counted. That was one of the mantras, character counts. It's the Moral Majority. It's family values. It's we stand for virtue until our guy, that wins the contest and gets the whole Caesar sword, is immoral. And then you have to change your tune, because obviously, that was all just, you know, sort of a slogan to justify what was always lurking there. And that was just a naked bid for power. If we're going to talk about it in theological terms, we just have to see the profound difference between the cross of Christ and the sword of Caesar. And you cannot hold to both at the same time. You're going to have to decide. Now, let's go back to Constantine. So Constantine--and I don't believe. I don't think the vision, I don't think the event even ever happened. I think this is hagiography. I think this is revisionist history on part of the early Christian apologists for Constantine. But as the story is told, on the eve of the battle for the Milvian Bridge, during the Roman Civil War, a sign appeared in heaven, you know, presumably the sign of the cross, and "in this sign you shall conquer," and then Constantine puts the sign of the cross upon their implements of war, and prevails in the battle. And suddenly Christianity is on the fast track, favored religion and state religion. But hold on here. "In this sign you shall conquer." Well, "conquer" is a euphemism for "kill." So in the sign of the cross, you shall kill. This is an absolute betrayal of the teaching and the life of our Lord Jesus Christ. I was speaking a few years ago in a big church in Colorado Springs, you know where the Air Force Academy is. And some of the people said, "Oh, Brian, you should go visit the Air Force Academy." I think they were just setting me up. [CHUCKLES] So okay, I'll go visit the Air Force Academy, which I wasn't expecting to actually be particularly thrilled with. But the big attraction there is there is the chapel. 

Eddie Rester : 36:26

The chapel.

Brian Zahnd : 36:27

And the outside, the architecture on the outside is designed, it's like, I don't know, I forgot the exact number, but, like, 17 fighter jets. Okay, so the outside that has this kind of weird, brutal sort of homage to Gothic is actually... what you're seeing is fighter jets. Okay? Going vertically, sitting straight up, you know. And then you go in. You walk into this chapel. It's insane. It's a chapel, but it's actually quite large. And where you expect a cross in the front, you first might look at, "oh there's a cross," and then you look just for a second longer you go, "Oh my god." And, you know, if you're doubting me, you can Google this and just look it up. It's not a cross. It is a sword. I mean, it's metallic and it comes to a tapered point with a ridge in the center. It's a sword and then the hilt of the... so the crossbar, or it's not the crossbar, it's the hilt of the sword, is an airplane propeller. Because, you know, it's the Air Force. They have literally, I mean, they've overdone it. This is an eruption of the real. They have literally turned the cross into a sword. And so that's the problem with pursuing political power for the Christian. It's because then we say, okay, we can't do this by the way of patience, by the way of faith, by the way of the Spirit. We're going to have to do this by coercion. But the kingdom of Christ is without coercion. We persuade by love, spirit, witness, reason, rhetoric, if need be martyrdom, but never by force. But we have been seduced by power. And we think okay, we will achieve. I mean, at one point, it was, "We will achieve good through having this power." You know, it's Lord of the Rings stuff. You know, it's one ring to rule them, one ring to find them, in the darkness bind them, however that thing goes. It's what was offered to Jesus in the wilderness temptation, and Jesus discerns that to go that route is to bow to the devil and says, "No, it's written: you shall serve the Lord your God, worship him only."

Chris McAlilly : 38:49

So what do you make of... So what are Christians supposed to do? I mean, so one of the options then becomes, do you simply kind of... I think I heard about some Catholics that went off somewhere in Iowa, somewhere in the Midwest, and they decided, okay. They took fully what has been, what is known in some circles as the Benedict option, which is a book by Roger, you can look it up. But it's basically just say, okay, if the world is so corrupt and so misaligned to the kingdom of Christ, well, then Christians need to completely make this monastic turn. Turn completely away from culture and set up an alternative polity or culture. Do you think that's... Would you call for that? Or what do you make of folks who make that call?

Brian Zahnd : 39:38

No, I wouldn't call for that. I mean, well, let me hold on here. I think that is an option, if you are truly a monastic. So you know, when I talk about the Benedictine option, I'm talking about Benedictines, actual, you know, Benedictines that I'm 

Chris McAlilly : 39:48

The monastic tradition, 1600 years old. 

Brian Zahnd : 40:02

I'm close with three Benedictine monasteries where I know the people there. They know me. We do stuff together.

Chris McAlilly : 40:09

Cody makes fun of me for my love of the monks. I love the monks.

Brian Zahnd : 40:13

I live about 35 minutes from a Conception Abbey. It has 65 monks. And about twice a year, I go there and I always claim that I'm their 66th monk for three days. I always tell myself I'm really good at being a monk for three days. [LAUGHS]

Chris McAlilly : 40:35

When I was in seminary, I went out to the Abbey of... let's see, gracious, I can't remember... of the Holy Spirit, I guess, in Conyers, Georgia, outside of Atlanta, and it was always so nice to get out. But there were no brands that were trying to market to me. There was not the din and just the rush of the city.

Eddie Rester : 40:56

There wasn't a gift shop on the way out?

Chris McAlilly : 40:58

Of course there was a gift shop on the way out. It's a monastery, man. They gotta figure out how to

Brian Zahnd : 41:03

Exactly 

Chris McAlilly : 41:04

continue. But there was a rich calm and silence and peace to that space that I had not experienced in my early 20s. And it did create this deep longing and desire for me to step away from the American thing. And for me, you know, it's not so much the kind of... I mean, I was... the power and the kind of violence of American culture that defends certain interests that got under my craw. For me it was just simply being marketed to, like my generation more so than any other, I feel like. Just the rich lie of that whole thing that you can, you have to learn. Basically, I think what you have to learn--I think kids get this--is that you have to develop a critical lens to see who's spinning the truth your direction, I really do feel like that kind of critical lens that you talked about developing, where you're deconstructing the, you know, the ways in which Christianity can be co-opted for other purposes or ends or use. And I do think that there are people that are currently seeing it's really easy. It's really easy to see your enemies when they are being co-opted, right? The people... if you're Deomcrats, it's really easy to see the Republicans. It's like, "clearly they're being used." On the flip side, it's easy for Republicans to see Democrats and say, "You guys are just getting played over there, man." But I think the the move is not from one party to another. What I hear you describing is a different kind of move. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

Brian Zahnd : 42:44

I mean, yeah, I got several thoughts here. Let me wrap up saying something about the monastic tradition. I think it's the conscience of the church. I think one of the tragedies coming out of the Protestant-Catholic split of the Reformation was that Protestants lost any real connection with the monastic tradition. Now, since Vatican II and things are much more friendly now, you know, we have access to that. And I advocate that I think everybody needs to have a monastery that they visit, you know, a couple of times a year. I advocate for that. But most of us are not living a contemplative, monastic life where we're actively involved in a participatory democracy. So what do we do? Well, first of all, the problem with religious right and religious left, is, let's say it this way the Christian right and Christian left, is that Christian gets reduced to adjective duty in service of the all-important noun: right or left. And I just say, I don't want to be a part of that. I want to belong to Christ. That may sound idealistic or naive. I don't know how it sounds, but I mean it. I'm not an elephant. I'm not a donkey. I'm following the lamb. So I tried to be radically non-partisan. I'm not a party. I'm just simply not. Now, but let me let me tell this story. So for years, I would, you know, on Election Day, I'd go to the polls. Let's say it's, you know, the presidential election, the big one. And I would go to the polls, and I would cast... I would vote for, you know, especially local things, you know, school board or mayor, things like that. But for presidential, I would always write in someone. I would write in Bob Dylan. 

Chris McAlilly : 44:36

Bob Dylan. I figured you probably would. 

Brian Zahnd : 44:38

Or Wendell Berry. I voted for Wendell Berry, and one year, Treebeard. I thought that was a good one. 

Eddie Rester : 44:42

Treebeard. That is a good one. 

Brian Zahnd : 44:44

Yeah. And that's how I voted. And my reason was I'm not being apathetic. I'm not unwilling to go to the poll. I go to the poll, but I didn't want casting a ballot for the Republican or the Democrat, to be construed as authorizing someone to wage war on my behalf. And so I just refuse to participate. And I just found it was good for my soul not to be, you know, invested in that frenzied, partisan, vitriolic quest for Caesar's sword. But. That's not the end of the story. I would love to go back to that, by the way. Those were happy days. But as 2016 approached, okay, we're in... as we were in 2016, coming up to November, I thought, "you know, this scene is different this time around." And I'm worried that... I'm just gonna speak frankly, I'm worried that Donald Trump is elected. I think people like me--you know, old white guys--I think I think we'll be all right. But that might be, for me to go and vote again for Bob Dylan might be kind of a luxury, coming from a place of privilege. And so here's what I'm gonna do. And I went, and I found a member of our church that I know very, very well. Undocumented, I know their whole story. I've hired immigration attorneys for them out of my own money. And I've worked, I've tried everything for them to get legal status and to no avail. And it's very, very frustrating. I love these people there, this whole family. Some of them were born here, some not. And they're always in peril, though. At any moment, you're afraid that they're going to be deported. So I went to them. I said, "We got this election coming up. You can't vote in it. But you have far more at stake than I do. So here's what I'm gonna do. I'm giving you my vote. You think about it, read about it, do whatever you want, pray about it. And then you tell me how you want to vote, and on election day, I'm nothing but your errand boy, and I'll go vote on your behalf." So I tell that story to say that of late I've moved to a "who will do the least harm." And then I accept counsel from the weakest and most vulnerable among you. So I want Jesus on judgment to say, "I was the weakest and vulnerable and you gave me your vote." [LAUGHS] So, I've gone a little more... You know, I'm not partisan. I don't campaign. I'm just... I don't do that. But I feel like there's enough on the line that I have to maybe participate a little more directly in this process, because I'm worried about how much pain and suffering will come upon certain people. So that's how I think about it these days. 

Chris McAlilly : 47:50

It's a hard thing for anyone. So if you're struggling with some of these issues, I mean, this is a journey for Brian. It's certainly been a journey for me. I don't... any given election year, I'm completely confused usually about what to do. This year feels... And I think I have some... I mean what I hear you saying is what I've heard some other friends say, which is I want to vote as a way of being a good neighbor. Eddie's got a question. He's just sitting over there, burning.

Eddie Rester : 48:19

Not a question. Just as you talk... when I was moving through college Rich Mullins, he had a song, and the chorus was, "Nobody tells you when you get born here how much you'll come to love it, and how you'll never belong here. So I call you my country, and I'll be lonely for my home. And I wish that I could take you there with me." And I feel like to kind of begin to pull back from empire, it requires us to reclaim home. I hear some of that in in what you're sharing. We've got just a couple more minutes. One thing that we did not get to, I think, and Chris wanted to. He wrote it down on his pad real big. 

Chris McAlilly : 49:07

Again, the monks. I'm thinking about prayer, man. I feel like this is a constant theme in your story is

Brian Zahnd : 49:13

Yes.

Chris McAlilly : 49:13

being drawn back in the direction from the Jesus movement, to the charismatic stuff, to discovering a God who speaks, to putting yourself in a position to hear that God. It's prayer. And I know that you've done schools of prayer, that you do schools of prayer, you're going to be doing them. I guess, how do you... Talk about that. Why? Why has that become an important part of your ministry and your personal journey of faith?

Brian Zahnd : 49:39

Why it became, I don't know how to answer that question, "why." I can tell you what happened. And it's the most surprising thing in all of my 38 years of being a pastor. About 10 years ago. Let's see, is that right? About 10, 11, 12 years ago, it took a couple of years. I, you know, I've always loved Jesus and I've always loved scriptures and reading the Bible is never been an issue for me. So I was, I just I get up in the morning, I read the Bible. I do it every day. And I like it. To this day, I enjoy that. Prayer was not that way. Prayer was always a struggle, because here's what happened. I came to Jesus and they told me you should pray. And nobody ever taught me how. And so I was left to my own devices. And I struggled with it for years and years and years. And about the age, you know, about 50--it seems dreadfully late--I began, it's a long story. I don't have time to the whole story. But I began to employ liturgy and prayer books. And over a period of about a year, I kind of curated a morning liturgy of prayer. It takes me about a half an hour, maybe a little longer to pray through it. I mean, there's plenty of room for your own petitions and spontaneous praying, but there is a structure that takes you through a 30 minutes of praying in the morning. And I know it sounds like hype, but it changed my life. It absolutely changed my life. I wouldn't have survived the things I went through, if I hadn't learned that. And then you know, I mean, some of you are pastors or been pastors, and you know how pastors are, especially in American context, we're always promoting something and trying to get people to participate and sign up and join and come and all of that. This was... I never thought I would ever teach a prayer school. It never crossed my mind. But our leadership team noticed a change in me, asked me what was going on. I said, I think it has to do with me finally learning how to pray well. And they asked me to teach them and I taught them and I thought that was that. And then the church asked me and then one thing led to another where now I get constant, I mean, back before COVID anyway, constant invitations every week or more than that, to come and conduct a prayer school. And I can just say it's the best thing I've ever done as a pastor. I mean, the thing I do best as a pastor is teach people how to pray. Today prayer school consists of 3 90-minute sessions. It's not that big a deal, you know, 3 90-minutes sessions. And again, I'm just trying to speak very calmly and very objectively. I can tell you it changes people's lives and I hear from people every day how it's changed their life. Right? I said I would never do it online, because I felt like it lost something if I did it that way, but COVID changed everything.

Eddie Rester : 52:39

COVID changed everything. Everything, everything seems up for grabs that I said, "I would never do that." And now I'm doing that.

Brian Zahnd : 52:46

So I did one last fall where we just said, you know, sign up. If you want any... we made people register for donation because I wanted them to--and I don't make any money on it. So I want to be clear on that--but I just I wanted people to have some, because you could give, your donation could be $1. You know? We didn't say just you know, donate, and it helps the church. But 900 people or 900 computers registered. Think about that. So we're going to do two more in October. You go to wolc.com, Word of Life Church, you can find out about that. But I'm not answering your question, you know, why did it happen? It just did. And, you know, I write books. I lead a church. I preach sermon. Used to travel a lot and speak. But the best thing I do is help people to pray, to teach them to pray. And I'm very content doing that. Because I know it'll save Christianity for people. It'll save people's souls, if you understand what I mean by that, you know? So that's, that's the thing I probably do best as a pastor is to help people learn how to pray.

Eddie Rester : 54:05

Well thank you for that. Thank you for your time today for those who are listening, a couple of great books that he's written: "Water to Wine," which is his story, which is Brian's story. And then I think your most recent one is "Exile," isn't it? "Living as People of God?"

Brian Zahnd : 54:22

No, it's "Postcards from Babylon." But that's what you're thinking. 

Eddie Rester : 54:24

Yeah, "Postcards from Babylon." 

Brian Zahnd : 54:25

So that's actually the most recent one is "The Unvarnished Jesus," which is a Lenten daily devotional. But okay. You're close enough.

Eddie Rester : 54:33

Yeah, close. Yeah, it feels like Lent a lot. So those are, if you're more interested.

Brian Zahnd : 54:40

Yeah, we went into Lent, we never ever,

Eddie Rester : 54:42

ever got out. But thank you for your time today. We really appreciate it and hope all goes well with you as we move on through the pandemic.

Chris McAlilly : 54:52

Thanks, Brian.

Brian Zahnd : 54:53

Well, I've enjoyed chatting with you. So it's nice to meet you. Hopefully we'll meet in person someday back when that happens. 

Eddie Rester : 55:00

That'd be great. [OUTRO] Thank you for listening today. Go ahead and follow us on Facebook and Twitter. And go ahead and hit the subscribe button on whatever platform you use to listen to podcasts.

Chris McAlilly : 55:14

This wouldn't be possible without our partner general Board of Higher Education in Ministry. We want to thank also our producer, Cody Hickman. Follow us next week. We'll be back with another episode of the wait [END OUTRO]