“The Table Before Us” with Angie Ward

Shownotes:

Our guest today is Dr. Angie Ward, Director of the Doctor of Ministry Program and Associate Professor of Leadership and Ministry at Denver Seminary. Angie is the editor of a series of books called Kingdom Conversations, compilations of essays by various authors and theologians that help us reframe our context and the inherent love we should feel for those around us.

Angie has over 30 years of leadership and teaching experience in church, parachurch, and Christian higher education ministry. She believes that proximity is key to changing how we see the world around us, and being invested in our communities can lead to real change--within ourselves and those around us.

Resources:

Kingdom Conversations: 

When the Universe Cracks: Living as God’s People in Times of Crisis 

Kingdom and Country: Following Jesus in the Land that You Love 

The Least of These: Practicing a Faith without Margins

Transcript:

Eddie Rester 00:00 I'm Eddie Rester.

Chris McAlilly 00:02
I'm Chris McAlilly. Welcome to The Weight.

Eddie Rester 00:04

We are so glad that you're with us today. We've got a great conversation with Angie Ward. Angie Ward is a professor. She heads the D.Min program at Denver Seminary. And she has written a series of books called "Kingdom Conversations." The first one was "When the Universe Cracks: How Do We Deal with Crisis," the second was about kingdom and the country we love. The third one is the one that's just coming out about "The Least of These." And it's a compilation of 10 different writers helping us reframe how we see the people in our neighborhoods, in our cities.

Chris McAlilly 00:43

Yeah, I mean, the the heart of the Christian faith is love--loving God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and loving your neighbor as yourself. We're really focused in this conversation about what it means to love your neighbor as yourself. And one of the things that she brings to the conversation is that you have to have new eyes to see your neighbor, and then a new posture. That was one of the things that she brought up in the conversation, being postured in such a way that there's humility, a desire to learn, a desire to assume that your neighbors are not just characters in the story of which you're the main character, but...

Eddie Rester 01:22
You're the hero of their story.

Chris McAlilly 01:24
Yeah, perhaps you, there are things for you to learn, and ultimately a way to perhaps reframe your life and your engagement in your community as you pay attention.

Eddie Rester 01:36

One of the things she talked about was proximity. And that's a word I'm going to dwell on for a little bit, because she really reminds us that our churches, our lives exist in neighborhoods and on streets. And oftentimes, as I think about a lot of the churches that I know, that I've worked with, even the one I'm at now, as our members have moved farther away, and new people have moved back in to the neighborhoods, we really don't know our neighbors as a church anymore. And she brings up do you know your neighbor to the left and to the right? And I think even for us in our homes, we struggle to know the people closest to us.

Chris McAlilly 02:20

Yeah, so, you know, for you and your context, Eddie, what will you take away? What do you think is important for your staff, and maybe for your leadership to think about in light of this conversation?

Eddie Rester 02:34

Yeah, I think one of the things is just for us to get out and walk our neighborhoods. We, our church, Christ United in Jackson, is one of the, is in the most densely populated section of Mississippi. But the question becomes, do we really know and love our neighbors in the neighborhoods right around us? Are we willing to simply settle for people driving in to us?

Chris McAlilly 02:59

Yeah, I think that, you know, Jackson is one of these places where there is a lot of suffering. There's a lot of pain. Oxford is the same way. You know, I think every place, every city, every community has suffering and pain. There are people on the margins, there's poverty, and there's need. And I think part of it is beginning to see that as an extension of discipleship, to pay attention to those around us. That's kind of the way she wants to frame the conversation. And then when you begin to see the need, not to get overwhelmed and ultimately say you've got to save everything or do all things, but rather to ask the question of perhaps what's the Spirit leading you to do? It may be small. it may be large. But that's the kind of conversation we're having today. And we're glad that you're with us on The Weight.

Eddie Rester 04:05

The book again is "The Least of These," Angie Ward. Go grab it and I think after you hear the conversation, you'll want to. To thank you for listening. Thank you for being in the journey with us. And like this one, share this one, and join us again next Thursday.

Chris McAlilly 04:20
[INTRO] Life can be heavy. So heavy, in fact that the weight we carry can sometimes cause us to lose hope.

Eddie Rester 04:29
But we've all come across those people in life who seem to be experiencing the same world we live in, except they maintain a great depth of joy and hope.

Chris McAlilly 04:38
A former generation called this gravitas. It was their description of a soul that had gained enough weightiness to be attractive, like all things with a gravitational pull.

Eddie Rester 04:49
Those are the people we want to talk to. On this podcast, we talk to pastors, entrepreneurs, artists, mental health experts, and many others.

Chris McAlilly 04:58
We'll create space for are heavy topics, but we'll be listening for a quality of soul that could be called gravitas.

Eddie Rester 05:05

Welcome to The Weight. [END INTRO] We're here today with Angie Ward, who has a book that is coming out, but also a series of books and works in ministry. Angie, tell us a little bit about yourself, just a thumbnail sketch about where you've been and what you do. You can leave out the part about being a Tar Heel fan, married to a Tar Heel. Leave all that out. And we'll be nice to each other. So yeah.

Angie Ward 05:08

Okay. Sounds good. Yeah, thanks for having me on the show. I'm coming from Denver, Colorado, where I now work at Denver Seminary. I'm a director of our Doctor of Ministry program here, which is as of yesterday. I was Assistant Director and just stepped into the role. But before that, I'm married to a pastor, so been in ministry and pastoral ministry for 25 years around the country, including Durham, Chapel Hill, as part of that. So yeah, so I have had a life of my own ministry leadership and ministry together with my husband and ministry leadership development in particular. And that has kind of led me teaching and writing to where I am today at Denver Seminary.

Chris McAlilly 06:12
Do you have a denominational affiliation? What is kind of your faith journey?

Angie Ward 06:16

Yes, I was a mutt growing up. So I was baptized as an infant into the Catholic Church, and my family switched to an evangelical flavored denomination called Evangelical Free. I don't mean it's... They have some down there by y'all, but not many. More upper Midwest, Swedish, Scandinavian, Free Church kind of background. But went to a Christian reform high school, went to Denver Seminary, which is probably kind of broadly non-denom evangelical. Went to Southern Baptist Theological Seminary for a PhD. And then all the churches we've served that have just happened to be non-denom. My husband grew up United Methodist in Florence, South Carolina. So we've just kind of come a lot of cross pollination, but primarily kind of non-denom along the journey. Yeah.

Chris McAlilly 07:02

What do you think it is about, not... just, for folks who are unfamiliar with the non- denominational church reality, what do you think draws people there? And, you know, what's the... I do think that, broadly, you see people leaving the mainline church, and then it seems like the non-denominational churches across the country either holding steady or even growing. I wonder, just how do you account for that?

Angie Ward 07:31

Yeah, well, interesting. I was just... I'm working on a book about kind of church and parachurch, I was doing a history of the parachurch and talking about kind of the rise of mega churches that led to kind of rise of non-denom or post denominationalism. You know, people just kind of not valuing or feeling like they need that. And part of that corresponded with the rise of parachurch organizations, which everything just feels more non-denom. I mean, we know Methodist churches and other mainline churches that are taking that stuff out of their name. You go to a lot of these churches, your church probably looks the same as my Presbyterian church plant that I'm involved in. So it kind of took away all that really identifying stuff. And people I think, are just going well, it's more like what's the experience more than what is the denomination, I think.

Eddie Rester 08:21

Right. Yeah. Well, you've got a book coming out, but it's the third in a series of books called "Kingdom Conversations." And they're... You're the editor. And you're basically posing a question or a theme and inviting others to write around that. And the one that I stumbled into last night, before I started looking at the book that's coming out, is "When the Universe Cracks." And so tell us a little bit about the series. How did it come about? Why do you feel that it's important?

Angie Ward 08:55

Yeah. So the series came about... So my first book was about calling for women, ministry leaders, and it was with NavPress. And then when the pandemic broke out and we were in full COVID, they were considering what does discipleship look like in light of this crisis. But then they tried to, they decided let's expand that to... And that's the first one, "When the Universe Cracks: Living as God's People in Times of Crisis." And so, not just a pandemic, but this, seasons of crisis, are nothing new to the people of Christ, to people of God. So and then they said, let's make this a conversation. And so they approached me, because they're familiar with my work, to be the general editor of that. And so with the publisher, I got to set kind of the... We talked about the topics for these first three, and who are going to be the contributors, and kind of the structure and flow. So I get to kind of be project manager with these folks and bring them together. But the focus, NavPress, a branch of the Navigators, is very much focused on discipleship and so we wanted a discipleship focus. So the first one you mentioned, "When the Universe Cracks," second one was "Kingdom and Country," and this third one is "The Least of These." And so for all of them, we're bringing in 10 different voices for each. All of them looking at these topics from a discipleship perspective, so not a political or an apologetics or even what should we think type of thing. But how can do we think and live into these things as faithful followers of Christ? And so that's kind of a guiding thing for the whole series.

Eddie Rester 10:29

The one about, again, "When the Universe Cracks," it really after COVID coming out... In fact, I was reading the introduction, it said, "We're not sure when you're reading this, if you're out of COVID, if you're out of all the protocols yet." When you approached the different writers, what was their response to joining in? How did they respond? Because I'm sure as you talked to them, that were in different places of lockdown and different moments of reemerging. How did they feel about beginning to help the church figure this out?

Angie Ward 11:04
Yeah, for the--and you're talking about the first one in particular for "When the Universe Cracks?"

Eddie Rester 11:07 The first, yeah.

Angie Ward 11:09

Yeah. And they're all... Well, just in general, for the the authors, for these contributors for the series, we're looking, again, for people who have kind of that discipleship mindset, first and foremost, but like for "When the Universe Cracks," we looked at who's... There's always a chapter in each of these that's kind of a theological one, and looking at kind of the underlying theological stuff. So we look for, hey, who's somebody that has that discipleship perspective and maturity, from that expertise. You know, somebody who's a sociologist. Who's that? You know, we got somebody who's with InterVarsity, or teaches at Wheaton, and her husband was at University of Madison. And so we looked at them. One of them is a pastor, you know, so what's it look like? Actually, several were pastors, and one of them teaches ministering, going, "what can the church learn from this?" And another one was a Black pastor saying, "Here's how this looked in real life and the things it meant for us," you know. And so, I think that when we first started writing it, I thought, by the time it came out, oh, would this be even relevant, because it's going to be so far in the rearview mirror? And here we are, three years later, you know, and going, America is done with COVID, but is it done? You know, that kind of thing. And so we also painted in broader, in this life, seasons of crisis. Again, this is nothing new, and what are things that are kind of timeless that we can take for this particular crisis?

Eddie Rester 12:30

Right. Yeah, I think that after being in ministry for 25 plus years, there's always some crisis. So there's definitely wisdom that translates across things. We'll skip to the third book, the one that's coming out in April, "The Least of These: Practicing Faith without Margins," what's the genesis of that? How did y'all come to want to talk about this one, this subject?

Angie Ward 13:02

Yeah, well, so each of them we kind of went well, the first one was kind of the most obvious topic, because it was born out of the pandemic. So it's like, what are we facing right now? Then they said what other topics to we need to have deeper discipleship conversations about? And so "Kingdom and Country" was one certainly because we're just in a constant swirl, as we all know, these days, more and more polarized. And then "The Least of These," again, we're kind of looking at not just socio cultural or justice, but when we see so many needs around us, we wanted to expand people's vision of "the least of these" and the sense of "other." And there's a chapter in the book about proximity, and we need to bring this closer to home instead of, "That's out there." We should read about the least of these but we want to go, what does that mean? Let's learn to open our eyes around us.

Eddie Rester 14:00

I think about Micah 6, "What does the Lord require of you?" is this entire book, and the chapter particularly about it's not about the weight of your sacrifices. "What does the Lord require? Do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly." And so often, we forget that what hums underneath the pages of scripture is this call, not just to love our neighbors, but to see neighbors. Sometimes we don't see them. So what did the authors begin to point us to? What were some of the chapters or some of the things that they really began to pull in terms of how do we see those people and those opportunities, the least of these around us?

Angie Ward 14:46

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I want to just add, I think my hope for all three of the books is not just opening eyes, but reorienting posture would be a huge thing, you know. So for this for this book, it's like going okay, first of all, what do we mean when we say, "Who is my neighbor?" You know, and just again, I think the idea is everything like, open your eyes seeing on a regular basis, responding to needs, the idea of... Certainly one of the key things is seeing. Another one is the power of proximity. That's the name of the one of the chapters. And just, instead of just separating our lives and driving down a street and seeing that person with that need, how do we break down those walls? And then also realizing, like you said, underneath, all of God's story and interaction is, the Gospel includes this. This is foundational to following Jesus and actually transformational to us, not just to the people that we, quote, help.

Eddie Rester 15:56 Yeah.

Angie Ward 15:57
That's why it's, like, such a posture thing, really more about transforming us as disciples, more than what do we do for everybody out there.

Chris McAlilly 16:04

Yeah, I want to just drill down. I think I understand what you mean by "posture." But could you talk a little bit more about that, because I do think that there's a way to kind of have the right set of views or, you know, maybe you see the world in the proper way, but just talk a little bit more. Give an example of what it would look like to have a faithful posture as it relates to a particular neighbor?

Angie Ward 16:31

Yeah, I think, one, it's like... Well, the posture is, I think, reframing instead of... For example, I have means and they don't. So one of them is understanding a posture of how much... Humility, a posture of humility, of I can receive just as much. It's not just about power or wealth or whatever ability or all those kinds of things. I'm centered, and you're not, and how we bring them... Like, not just raising people up, but me humbling myself. So I think that a posture of humility for that. A posture of seeing people as Jesus sees them. So one of the chapters is about "Created in His Image," and the cost of the theological idea of the Imago Dei, the image of God, and how transforming it is to really look at everybody with that idea: These are God's image bearers, so it just reframes everything from heart, mind, hands. And then are we willing to sacrifice and obey, however God calls? And to just to really reduce or eliminate those margins--and not even view in terms of margin, so a complete paradigm shift, really. Does that help?

Chris McAlilly 17:55 Yeah, it's helpful.

Eddie Rester 17:56

One of the things is, from what you said just a second ago, I wrote it down over here, is you talk about this as part of our discipleship, part of how we grow in our faith and expand our understanding of Christ. And I think that some people say, "Oh, if I want to grow, I have to go to church. I go to worship. And I need to be in a small group. I have to go do a Bible study, I need to study the Bible some more. I really probably need to maybe join another Bible study and a third small group."

Angie Ward 18:27 Right.

Eddie Rester 18:28

If the church is going to be open four days a week, I should try to make it three days of the week for worship. But I think sometimes the piece of it that gets skipped in our own spiritual lives, that gets overlooked, is this sense of serving, of pouring yourself out, of really... I mean, you talked about obedience just a second ago. Can you speak a little bit more about why it's so powerful for us to understand serving and offering ourselves as a part of our spiritual growth?

Angie Ward 19:05

Yeah, I mean, one, I think it's us becoming more and more molded into Christ's likeness, who, you know, Ephesians who empty themselves, and so by us emptying and understanding that posture, it's just transforming who we are becoming and becoming like Christ. And I just was thinking when you're talking about all the church services, and I was thinking about the Good Samaritan and how they just pass this person in need while they're on the way to their church services and their other good deeds. And we're missing... The gist of being a Christ follower doesn't happen--the heart of it doesn't happen--inside the church walls. It's all the other non- one and a half- two hours that you spend inside the building. That is where the most of our discipleship is lived out.

Eddie Rester 20:06
There's a guy named Reggie McNeal.

Angie Ward 20:07

Yeah, I know Reggie. Yeah.

Eddie Rester 20:09
You know Reggie? Oh my gosh.

Angie Ward 20:10
I knew him from a longtime ago. I worked with the North Carolina State Baptists for a while.

Eddie Rester 20:13

Yeah. So I heard him somewhere. We brought him to one of our churches I was at years ago. And one of the images that he used is that he said, "Church is like the airport." If you're going to travel somewhere, you got to go to the airport. It's going to get you where you need to go. But you don't vacation in the airport. You don't live in the airport.

Angie Ward 20:34 Yeah.

Eddie Rester 20:35

But it exists to move you somewhere else. And that our relationship to the body of Christ should move us, move us somewhere else in the world. When you think about how we begin to do that, how would you suggest or maybe from those who, someone who wrote one of the chapters, how do we begin to connect beyond the church walls? How do we take that step?

Angie Ward 21:05

Yeah, I think there's a couple of things. One is getting outside the church walls. You know, and just... So I was talking with, we have a Hispanic initiative thing here, at Denver Seminary, and I was talking to Wilmer, our director of that and I said, "I just need to learn so much." So first of all, you know, there's so much I don't know. And then I said, "How can I continue to learn and grow?" He said, "Serve tables with me." He said, "Come with me into the community, and don't just read or listen to podcasts or something." So that, again, kind of that whole thing about proximity, and getting beyond the walls, seeing those things. Like my husband and I are going, "How can we, in our neighborhood in urban Denver, how can we get involved? Where are the places in our community we can get involved?" Not just a homeless shelter, a food pantry that we can give money or things to. And we came up with in our community, at least, it's the public schools. They're coming across as the most acute need there, kind of holistic family needs and stuff. We're trying to figure out right now, we still haven't figured it out. But how can we get involved ground level, not just all this kind of power or privilege to not, or that type of thing. But really, I think that proximity thing is as big. You look at the early church. They weren't known for great worship services or great doctrine or Bible studies. I mean, they had all those counselors. They were compelling because of how radical their love was for each other and for the people around them. And they were caring for the people that were the complete outcasts in society.

Chris McAlilly 22:47

Where did, I guess, your vision or your imagination for a church that's postured in this way, where does that come from? Where have you seen a church kind of in your background, in your history that does this really well? Or that inspired your imagination? Or I guess the other side would be, you know, perhaps the reason for the book is that you haven't seen that.

Angie Ward 23:12

I see glimpses. I mean, I think in seminary I first kind of started to understand sort of more of a kingdom theology, like, "on earth, as it is in heaven," like the Lord's Prayer. What does that look like? Not just head knowledge or doing kind of right behaviors or like life beyond personal devotion. And tarted realizing... One of the books that actually was very compelling to me at one point was, it was a book by Bill Hybels and I suddenly lost the title. It was about Willow Creek early, early on, and Willow's gone through all sorts of stuff now. But they were having an auto repair ministry and all sorts of different things from their church. I was like, "Whoa, that's just radical." It felt radical to me at the time, me growing up in evangelicalism, very black, white, creedal, doctrinal, you know, kind of thing. And there were other just little, little pieces that I felt like God broke my heart. I remember one in graduate school, we had a student come in from, she was a Chinese student, and she just explained the barriers that... I just assumed my experience was normative. I grew up in white bread, Middle America, upper midwest, and so it wasn't... We got to... So I heard the student in graduate school. I was like, "Man, she has a whole different experience." And then then we lived in Durham, North Carolina, our kids went to the public schools there. Very different from white bread Wisconsin. Like Martin Luther King Day in Wisconsin was like we were celebrating some other country's history. That's what it felt like to me. There was no proximity. So again, that proximity is so huge. So we got to Durham. And suddenly these were my kids' friends' parents who had lived through these days, you know, and grandparents. I'm like, "Whoa." So the personal thing, personalizing it by proximity. It's been a gradual process of God cracking open my heart, I think, to his heart, his eyes, other people's hearts and minds.

Eddie Rester 25:29

I think that's so powerful, you said, "I assumed my experience is normative." And most of us do that. And it might have been Reggie McNeal--you've made me think about Reggie McNeal--who said that after five years inside a church, the number of people that we know outside of the church just almost goes to nobody. And that's probably even... I don't know if that still holds true. That's probably been 15 plus years ago. But, you know, our world gets, in some ways, we hang out with the people who are like us, speak like us, think like us. And I think that's become even more true over the last decade. We really just stay in our--I hate to use the term "echo chambers," because I think that's overused--but that's what we do. And so what would you say, or maybe from an example from the book, what's a good step to do that proximity work? I think about the neighborhoods around my church here in Jackson that we don't have any members from. And so what's an offering for how we begin to do that proximity work without being those weird Christians who are trying to get us to show up at their church?

Angie Ward 26:48

Yeah, a couple of things. One is, I don't know that churches, even inside those echo chambers are safe places for us to even bring our own mess sometimes. And so it could still be easy to say, "We've got it all put together, so we're gonna go out to the people outside who are the not-put-together people." Are we still creating some sort of heart barriers there? And also, are we doing... Is this, again this is back to is this a posture shift or is this a church growth technique? You know, are we doing this just because this has become our lifestyle as a follower of Christ, and it becomes our corporate lifestyle, that we can't help but not do it? And it's not always programmatic, either. So it's like, I think sometimes, it's so easy to kind of, well, we're doing this program. And this is actually another Reggie McNeal thing I remember him talking about the church being like Home Depot. He said, "A lot churches are, 'We can do it. You can help.' instead of 'You can do it. We can help.'" So making things less programmatic. Celebrating and calling to light, individual, and count... Like, getting people to... Instead of going "our church did this big event, and we serve this many people and this many people did this, and these are all that success." Just going, hey, you know, Chris, Where did you see Jesus in someone this week? Bring it way down from this level of program and institutionalism to very personal, right in front of our lives, and doing that from the platform and corporately where we're not just, like... You know, what if you didn't do any big programs for a year, and it was all about nothing happens unless it happens at that grassroots level?

Eddie Rester 28:46
You know, some people will quote Jesus and say, well, the poor will always be with us.

Angie Ward 28:51 Yeah.

Eddie Rester 28:52

The poor will always be with us. So this isn't... You know, we'll just do what we need to do. But how does God really impress upon his people to not turn a blind eye? How do we, again this goes back to the posture I think some, but how do we overcome that inertia? Or how do we understand? What does scripture really say to us, beyond the poor will always be with us?

Angie Ward 29:21

Yeah, because he also says you know, as you treat the least of these, you have also done to me. I mean, so there's an eternal... It's closely linked with our... It's not just the poor will be alwaysas with you. There is a reality of the "now" and the "not yet," you know, until he wipes every tear from our eye kind of thing. But we've talked about the gospel, and the whole of Scripture is about, and the kingdom, is just upside down. And really it's the concern for... That should be our driving concern is the poor, because they're always with us, I think, instead of an excuse. It's like, because they're always with us, that's why it matters. And because doing it to the least of these is to Jesus and like, you know, the Benedictine hospitality to receive people as Christ himself. I mean, that change... Again, that changes us. And so you know, God's more interested in our hearts than just what we do for him. So there's that piece about meeting those other needs, but it's also how it connects us to God's greater story and his whole heart by doing those things.

Chris McAlilly 30:32

Yeah. So I think God's story and the heart of God coming through the ministry of Jesus is one of the places where perhaps your imagination can get firing about particular ways in which you can engage in life of action, and then loving neighbors and loving those who may be on the margins. I wonder of the stories of Jesus that you're most compelled by, maybe the parables of Jesus or something in the ministry of Jesus in the gospels, what would you lift up as maybe one or two stories that that are particularly compelling for you?

Angie Ward 31:08

Good question. I think of three God stories. One's actually from the Old Testament, but I think the principle is the same. One is Hagar in the desert when she flees to the desert, and it said, "And God saw her in her pain," and like, provided for her. And then you see, "Jesus saw the woman at the well and went and talked to her." And, you know, we don't know what her exactly her past, you know, there's different interpretations in scripture or whatever, but he wasn't afraid to. And then he saw Zaccheus up in a tree, or whatever, you know, a tax collector, and said... And so he always called those people to him or went close to those people. And even the woman caught in adultery. Every time he defied what the cultural norm would have been or our default reaction to be, and every one of those, he's making space and saying "You, you're closer to me than what these other people think." The ones who think they are, you know,

Chris McAlilly 31:27

Right. Right. I know that one of your books is just about women in leadership, women discovering their calling. I wonder, what do you think it is? I think that, you know, there are Christian denomination circles where women are excluded from ministry or from calling, I wonder what's lost there? Or on the more positive side, you know, I wonder sometimes if perhaps women in leadership in the church might be able to offer the church, really, a different perspective around some of these questions, even in the reading... You know, the stories that you lift up are ones... I think that's interesting that the Hagar story and just particularly thinking about the experience of women in Scripture. I just wonder what you would say there. What do you think is unique and distinctive about how women help the church discover their way to loving those on the margins?

Angie Ward 33:19

Yeah, well, that's... And I think, certainly as like, I've had to be more on the margins than a lot of my colleagues, as a woman and in evangelical circles, in some conservative evangelical circles, I was excluded just because of my gender. Essentially, just because I'm female, not for anything else. And so there have been times, too many to count, where I've not been seen truly for all of who I am, and I've only been on the outside because of one disqualifying factor. And so I think those who've experienced that, and women aren't the only ones but I think a friend of mine was saying he said, I think the future of the church is with immigrants, refugees, women, because he said they know how to lead from the margins. And they look for those people.

Chris McAlilly 34:23

Yeah, I remember, we had a conversation I think it was, Eddie, you might remember, maybe with Barbara Brown Taylor, where we talked a lot about just you know, where Jesus shows up. And it was interesting the way in which she played around with this concept of what's at the center and what's at the margins. Do you remember that conversation?

Eddie Rester 34:45
I'm old. I don't remember that conversation. I remember talking to Barbara Brown Taylor, but...

Chris McAlilly 34:51
Yeah, I know, you could go back. It's in the backlog if you're interested.

Eddie Rester 34:54
I can go back and listen.

Chris McAlilly 34:55

You can go back and listen. But yeah, I think she did talk about that. Do you think that that is one of the things that you see about Christ a lot of times? You know, I remember talking to a cousin of mine, who remembered Jesus from Bible stories when he was a kid. And that was the first time he read the gospels. It's just, he's kind of blown away with... You know, I think he was surprised at the extent to which he criticized and kind of had some harsh words for religious people and the ways in which he created space for a whole range of individuals that might not be acceptable Thanksgiving dinner, kind of thing.

Eddie Rester 35:40

Yeah. And a second second ago, the examples you pulled out of Jesus's life very, very particularly, were about Jesus crossing barriers. I mean, those were the things that Jesus did. And I know that this book has a strong emphasis on tearing barriers down. And so how can the church be a place where we effectively take the barriers down, not just so people can show up on Sundays, but take barriers down so that humans can love humans, God's children can love God's children?

Angie Ward 36:17

Yeah, I mean, we need to have courage to call it out, first of all. There's just kind of this, I've heard for years, I kind of preach against it, but kind of "out there," you know? Like, we need to start repenting and confessing in our own lives and our own communities. And I mean, and seeing where that stuff is originating in our hearts and bringing it first just back to this everyday discipleship stuff. Not this "out there" kind of thing. And so are we, am I confessing every week, regularly, my shortcomings before God? I mean, I think even our regular worship, is it only focused on the victory? Or is it focused on the humility and becoming like Christ? That doesn't sell. That doesn't bring as many people in. You know, and so at what point do we say, we're going to try to get as many people as possible, but actually the Gospel is about letting go and emptying. How you switch that?

Eddie Rester 37:14 Right. Yeah.

Angie Ward 37:23
And so maybe being more honest about what Christ's life and kind of a Christoform, you know... What is that? Taking up your cross? Ugh.

Eddie Rester 37:35 Yeah.

Chris McAlilly 37:36

I do think another thing that can sometimes happen, that I've noticed when people kind of take on board the basic message of the book, which is that Christians ought to be a part of the alleviation of suffering in the world. That Christians ought not turned a blind eye to those who are marginalized or ostracized, the poor, the widows, the immigrants and the orphans. Once you... One of the things I think can happen is once you start paying attention to that stuff, it is completely overwhelming. And I think people do get overwhelmed. So, you know, I think one of the questions that I wonder about is if people... Let's say, somebody reads the book, and by the end there persuaded, "Yes. This is right. And I don't know what to do. I'm just kind of overwhelmed."

Eddie Rester 38:27

Yeah.

Angie Ward 38:28 Yeah.

Chris McAlilly 38:28
Just, you know, I think that... I wonder how you would respond to such a person?

Angie Ward 38:35

Yeah, first, I'd say that's fantastic. I'm so glad you're wanting to explore that and that you're feeling moved by that. I mean, because that's movement right there. That is a shift in awareness and posture. And I just feel like... What do you see around you? Maybe you need to turn off the news for a bit and then not even the global stuff. And like, what do you... I'd say, do you know your neighbors? Truly, do you know the people who live on either side of you? Do you know the people up and down your block? Maybe start by getting to know their names. And when you go for a walk... I was saying this in the opening intro chapter of the book that I take my dog on a walk, about a two mile loop every evening. And just walking with fresh eyes, I mean, also helped me, in one sense, feel overwhelmed but also made me start asking questions and thinking. I would say also, just trusting God through the Holy Spirit to guide, to honor that desire of your heart and to provide those, and that you will recognize them when they come. So you can say, "God open my eyes, and show me what I can do." And I think he answers.

Chris McAlilly 39:49
So good. It reminds me... I hate to keep referencing the backlog, but if you haven't listened,

you should go back and listen...

Angie Ward 39:56
I thought we were gonna go Reggie McNeal again.

Chris McAlilly 39:57 No, the backlog...

Eddie Rester 39:59
Maybe we should track Reggie McNeal down.

Yeah.

Chris McAlilly 40:01

We should get him on the podcast. Anyway, you mentioned, you know, maybe take a moment and kind of step away from the global conversation and then come back and think about maybe what's going on around you. We had a conversation with this guy, Jeffrey Bilbro, who, the book was called "Reading the Times: A Literary and Theological Inquiry of the News." And it's basically a practical theology about how you engage the news. And really, by the end of the book, what he talks about is basically local, not global. And one of the spiritual practices that he offers to belonging in the public sphere is literally just get up and go for a walk. It's a liturgy of engagement with your world. And I do think there is a sense in which, you know, when you do that with an openness to the Spirit to movement, you know, that God opens your eyes to your neighbors in a new way. Let me ask you one additional follow up question, because I do think there's an individual dimension here. And then I also think that there is a corporate dimension.

Angie Ward 41:16 Yeah, for sure.

Chris McAlilly 41:17

And so, for you, let me just ask you the question from the perspective of a church leader, and you know, I'll give you the specifics of our context. Our church is 186 years old, and so we have a budget for engaging with the community, but it tends to be, you know, $500 here, $250, there, $1,000 over here, and it's kind of scattershot in a lot of different directions. Sometimes I wonder, maybe we could make a bigger impact if we focus some of that giving in one direction. What advice, wisdom would you offer to a ministry leader for how to do some of that discernment on a more corporate scale? Basically, you know, evaluating what it is that you're currently doing in the work of supporting those on the margins, and then maybe making the biggest impact that you can with your resources. Or maybe I'm framing the question in the wrong way, and you would frame it in a different way.

Angie Ward 42:21

Those are all great questions. I actually recommend a book called "Eat What Is Set Before You." And it's by a guy named Scott Hagley, who teaches at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary. This was his qualitative, ethnographic doctoral dissertation for Luther Seminary. But he has this this theology of suffering our neighbor, and not just like we usually say, "We're the table. Come eat with us." Like we're still coming from... Instead of going, what is the neighborhood that's been set before us and how do we sit at their table? And so I think as a discernment as a congregation, as leadership, you can say, what is the table that's been set before us? It flips the whole, you know, who's center in this story? And what is it God's uniquely, maybe has put a unique burden on our congregation for, because of our context, or the people that are coming to our church or their story, or whatever, you know, and so what might God be... And so a corporate discernment, what might God be inviting us into? Because we can't do just $500 here. And I mean, $500 is a drop in the bucket, you know, and so... And now, this is personal, but I think corporately applies. So my husband and I said, we decided, we're not just going to give $10 to everybody who asks, or $20, you know, $50 to everybody who asks. That means we're going to have to say no to some things, but we said God, based on kind of our passions, and our history, and the things that have made an impact on our own life, and so we came up with a giving strategy for just us as a couple. But I think churches and corporations, just groups, you know, communities of faith can do the same type of thing and go, where's God calling us to? And that's going to be unique, and we have a unique passion for that, you know, instead of just the semi nickeling and diming thing. I mean, that all comes from the right heart. Can we be even more intentional?

Eddie Rester 44:29 Right.

Chris McAlilly 44:29 Yeah.

Eddie Rester 44:29
Can we go much deeper with our love for groups for people or for an issue? It makes me think about, you were talking about, you know, the table that's set before us.

Chris McAlilly 44:40
That's a great, interesting concept.

Eddie Rester 44:43
Yeah, absolutely. It made me think about the story of the Good Samaritan one more time, where the setup question for that was, well, who's my neighbor?

Angie Ward 44:53 Yeah.

Eddie Rester 44:53

And the story that gets told it's very clear that Jesus saying, "You're asking the wrong question." The question is, are you willing to be neighbor? And I think, if we really sat with that, more often than not, our answers would be drastically different than what we typically come up with. If we're willing to say, okay, if the onus of being neighbor is on me, how does that change my actions?

Chris McAlilly 45:23

Yeah, and I just think that this is, I mean, I think really the place to start this conversation is really how did Christianity spread in the beginning? It was an explosive vision of a holistic engagement with other people, in a way that...

Eddie Rester 45:44
And people on the margins.

Chris McAlilly 45:45

Yeah, which ultimately--yeah, widows, orphans, and the poor. I mean, you know, the institutions, including some of the world's first hospitals were Christian innovations to care for the those on the margins of society. And ultimately, one of the emperor's said, you know, the Christians are making the Romans look bad. So, I wonder what it would look like to get back to something like that. I really appreciate you pushing the conversation in this direction, Angie, and thank you so much for engaging with us. Eddie, do you have a last question?

Eddie Rester 46:19

I was just gonna say the book is "The Least of These: Practicing a Faith Without Margins." And I can tell that just from our conversation here, how it's engaged me. That's what I hope, and I can tell that's what the book is gonna do for others as well. So thank you for working with all those authors to bring this to life.

Angie Ward 46:39
Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me on this show. It's an honor to meet you guys.

Eddie Rester 46:43
You'll be our only Tarheel for the year. So.

Angie Ward 46:46 Oh, wow. That is...

Eddie Rester 46:47 We've now met our quota.

Angie Ward 46:50
I hope I represented us well. And good luck on Saturday. We're recording this before Duke-Carolina, y'all.

Eddie Rester 46:57
A few days for Duke-Carolina. Yeah, look back and bask in Duke's victory. Thanks, Angie.

Angie Ward 47:05 Thanks, y'all.

Eddie Rester 47:08
[OUTRO] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, the best way to help us is to like or subscribe or leave a review.

Chris McAlilly 47:14

If you would like to support this work financially or if you have an idea for a future guest, you can go to theweightpodcast.com. [END OUTRO]