Social Media Culture | “My Tech-Wise Life” with Amy Crouch
Shownotes:
Among 19-20 year olds, only 1% do not have social media accounts. This statistic emphasizes the ever-growing presence that social media and technology have in our day-to-day lives. While this comes with its advantages, it’s also important to consider the dangers of such constant connection and how to create wise boundaries that help us live a “tech-wise” life. How can controlled usage of social media help protect us from its negative effects?
Amy Crouch is a student at Cornell University and, with her father Andy Crouch, co-author of “My Tech Wise Life: Growing Up and Making Choices in a World of Devices.” She joins Chris and Eddie to discuss what boundaries and understandings regarding technology are necessary to harness its advantages while mitigating its negative effects. Crouch bases her message around the understanding that technology is not a bad thing, but something that must be seen as a tool rather than a foundation of life. What does that look like practically? Tune in to the conversation to find out!
Series Info:
Social media has changed the way messages are shared throughout the world with a rapidity that is unparalleled. Its effects on culture, for better and for worse, are undeniable and seemingly inescapable. It’s impossible to grasp in totality what the increasing role of social media will mean for our society, but one thing is for sure: the Church needs to talk about it.
In our new series “Social Media Culture,” Chris and Eddie will engage in conversations about how Christians can establish healthier habits with technology and cultivate a more faithful manner of engagement on social media. It’s important for the Church to consider the advantages of this cultural shift, such as innovative outreach and the uplifting of important voices and messages, while also guarding against the threats, such as constant comparison, misinformation, and dissociation from the surrounding world. Be a part of this conversation beginning on June 3rd!
Resources:
Order a copy of “My Tech Wise Life” by Amy Crouch and Andy Crouch here.
Follow Amy Crouch on social media:
Full Transcript:
Chris McAlilly 0:00
I'm Chris McAlilly.
Eddie Rester 0:01
And I'm Eddie Rester. Welcome to The Weight. Chris, I've got a statistic for you.
Chris McAlilly 0:05
What's that?
Eddie Rester 0:06
The statistic is for 19 to 21 year olds, only one percent--one percent--don't have social media.
Chris McAlilly 0:16
Is that right?
Eddie Rester 0:16
Yeah.
Chris McAlilly 0:17
Are you sure?
Eddie Rester 0:17
According to the study in the book that we're talking about today, "My Tech-Wise Life" by Amy Crouch and Andy Crouch. That's one of their findings in this massive survey, they did about 13 to 21 year olds, and technology.
Chris McAlilly 0:31
So we're talking about technology. We're talking with Amy Crouch. Amy is a student at Cornell University. And she grew up in the home of a family that was very intentional about its use of technology. Her father actually wrote a book called "The Tech-Wise Family." We use this in our church. It's about putting technology in its proper place within the life of the family. Eddie taught that book, and he was always interested about how the children in the family related to the content of the book and so we get to find out on the the episode today what Andy Crouch's children think about it.
Eddie Rester 1:12
Yeah, it is a fascinating conversation. What I love about the way Amy talks about technology and the way her father Andy talks about technology is that they're not afraid of technology. They're not anti-technology, but they want to make sure that we understand that technology is a tool for life, not the foundation of life. And it's real easy for us to make our relationship with technology foundational, instead of just a tool for life.
Chris McAlilly 1:42
I think that the conversation about the place of technology in the life of American culture and then in the lives of families and individuals continues to evolve. One of the things that Amy talks about is, you know, I think that we need more intentionality, more self examination, perhaps a bit less trust and faith in...
Eddie Rester 2:06
The companies.
Chris McAlilly 2:07
Yeah, the institutions that are shaping our attention. And a lot of people are talking about that. I think what's unique or distinctive about Amy's approach is that it comes out of formation within the Christian tradition. She's got resources and wisdom that have come out of her family and out of the Christian faith that have have given her some leverage in shaping her life with technology, and not just allowing technology to shape her life.
Eddie Rester 2:40
What I love about the book is that each chapter, she writes a chapter and her dad writes her letter, and she offers some really practical ways to engage the conversation. So it's a book that, if you've got kids, it might be fun to sit down and read with your kids and have conversations with them. Or just give it to them, let them... See what they do with it.
Chris McAlilly 3:02
I think the other side is if you're a young person, if you're a college student, or a young adult or high school student, I think Amy has a great perspective for you as well, because it's not just about your parents imposing rules or guidelines. She has a lot of confidence in your generation, finding solutions to problems that you didn't create.
Eddie Rester 3:24
Yeah, that's right.
Chris McAlilly 3:25
Yeah.
Eddie Rester 3:26
So we hope that you enjoy this episode. I think it's an amazing conversation.
Chris McAlilly 3:31
[INTRO] We started this podcast out of frustration with the tone of American Christianity.
Eddie Rester 3:37
There are some topics too heavy for sermons and sound bites.
Chris McAlilly 3:40
We wanted to create a space with a bit more recognition of the difficulty, nuance, and complexity of cultural issues.
Eddie Rester 3:47
If you've given up on the church, we want to give you a place to encounter a fresh perspective on the wisdom of the Christian tradition, in our conversations about politics, race, sexuality, art, and mental health.
Chris McAlilly 4:00
If you're a Christian seeking a better way to talk about the important issues of the day, with more humility, charity, and intellectual honesty, that grapples with Scripture and the church's tradition in a way that doesn't dismiss people out of hand, you're in the right place. [END INTRO]
Eddie Rester 4:15
Welcome to The Weight. Well, we're so excited to be here today with Amy Crouch, a student at Cornell University, studying linguistics. And I was able to say the word correctly that time. But also the author of "My Tech-Wise Life." Now, I'm so excited that you agreed to talk with us because a few years ago, we read the book that your dad wrote, "The Tech-Wise Family," and he talked a lot about raising his kids, and the whole way through the book, I was thinking, "I wonder what his kids really think about this?" And then you write this book, which is kind of your experience of limits around technology that you grew up with, but also patterns and habits with that, as well. So what made you decide you wanted to write this book?
Amy Crouch 5:12
Yeah, well, it really grew out of dad's book and out of the people who found that book really helpful. Dad's book was targeted at families kind of sharing our experiences of living in a way that was very intentional with technology, right, seeking to live wisely with these devices that have just infiltrated our lives. And that was a great book. Dad did a great job, and I highly recommend it. But we both felt, my dad and I, that we needed to keep the conversation going. And in particular, we needed to be talking to young people, not just about kids, but to kids, about the ways that technology has just completely turned our lives upside down, and how we can respond to that in wisdom.
Amy Crouch 6:02
And so I think we just both felt that speaking to parents was good and necessary, but that it needed to be complemented by a conversation with young people, people my age, who are just trying to figure out how to live in a way that is healthy and joyful with our devices and not having our health and our lives just taken over by them.
Eddie Rester 6:28
Yeah, I think that's an important view. Just, I have two daughters. One is 19 years old. One is 17 years old, and as I think about their lives, their lives have been marked by technology in a way--and your life as well--that no other generation has had. Even the toys that they got when they were little often had an online component. Webkinz, I think?
Amy Crouch 6:53
Oh, yeah.
Eddie Rester 6:55
So what, I mean, talk about maybe your first recollections of the kind of the technological world.
Amy Crouch 7:06
Mmm. This is a good question. And I think part of what's difficult about it, as I think for pretty much anyone my age, is that the technological world in some ways wasn't distinct from the rest of the world, you know, that these devices were kind of woven so much into just what it was to be a person, that it's almost difficult to tease out like that first moment. Um, I think, though, I would say, honestly, my first memories were of just computers as being this work thing. Like, mom and dad, when they went to work, I knew that they would get on their computers and answer emails.
Amy Crouch 7:50
And I actually, there's this story that we tell about my brother, that when he was little, my dad asked him, "Oh, Timothy," that's my brother's name, "What do you think I do for a living?" Timothy said, at, like, age four, "Well, I think you type on the computer and talk on the phone." And so I definitely had that kind of perception of like, oh, technology. Like, these are things that, you know, adults go to work and they communicate to each other, and they do boring, adulty things. And I think that was my very first glimpse of the world of devices.
Amy Crouch 8:26
But then the other thing was, especially, like, as I was going to elementary school, I absolutely started to see devices as entertainment. My peers and my friends were just so, so in love with TV and video games and movies. And so, they very much had this world of, like, they saw devices as being this limitless source of entertainment, this almost magical realm, right, where you could get, you could be distracted for as long as you wanted. So I think those would be my two maybe paradoxical or sort of contradictory first impressions, both of devices as these boring adult work things, but then also have technology as this source of other entertainment.
Chris McAlilly 9:19
So I'm a parent of three kids, a nine-year-old, a six-year-old, and a three-year-old, and, you know, there's devices in our home, and we got tablets for the boys for Christmas this past year, which I don't know how that fits within the normal range of what parents do. But for us, it felt like a big step. Because it felt like we were giving over something that we had held back. And so then, you know, we do ministry, we do confirmation in our tradition with seventh graders, and so I see kind of the jump from like, a third grader to a seventh grader and then the jump from a seventh grader to a senior in high school.
Chris McAlilly 10:05
And it just, I'm just telling you, it makes me... I'm, in some ways, I felt unequipped as a parent to even know how to navigate this world. Because it's, technology comes at your children. I mean, you make your own decisions for yourself as an adult. But thinking about how to, like, frame and structure things for your kids, that seems... It's a hard thing to know how to navigate. I wonder, for you, kind of how you navigated that as a child, where your family kind of had a certain set of parameters and your peers had a different set of parameters. How did how did that affect you? And what do you think about that now?
Amy Crouch 10:47
Yeah, I think it was complicated. But I also felt like, the kind of strength of my family almost identity was sustaining. I think the way I would put it is, I absolutely saw when I was little--and have come to see even more as I've grown up--the ways in which my family was unusual. I knew that we had to use family intentions around our use of technology, from small things like no devices at the dinner table to literally not having a TV in our house. And so I knew that we were different. And it's not like, it's not like I was unaware of that. And I definitely, you know, I wasn't watching the same TV shows that my friends were. I wasn't, you know, I just didn't have the same kinds of experiences as them.
Amy Crouch 11:46
But I think the thing is, my parents made it so clear that these weren't some arbitrary rules that they had decided to set for us, that this was something about who we were as a family, and I would say who we are still. And so as much as I knew that we were doing things differently, I almost was able to see it in a positive way, as this is what the people I love, this is what we do. And this is how we live. And so as much as I saw that there were differences, at the same time, I was also kind of proud of it in the way that you're proud of what your family does.
Eddie Rester 12:29
Yeah, it obviously shaped a lot of your current understanding of technology. What I love about the book is that you don't present technology as some evil, destructive force in our lives, but as something that we... that it's a tool. It is a tool that we can use. And so the book is also built around a lot of research and studies that have been done about teenagers, young students, and technology, and the impact of social media and different things on them. As you think about maybe some of the research that was a part of the book, what was most... What showed up that was most surprising for you?
Amy Crouch 13:14
Yeah, well, I think the most surprising thing was maybe also the most encouraging, um, which is we asked teenagers or actually, it was kids 13, to 21, which I consider myself a kid, that's not a derogatory term, we asked individuals 13, to 21, all about, you know, their experiences with technology, how they felt about their devices. And I was really interested to learn about the ways that kids actually choose to police their own behaviors around devices.
Amy Crouch 13:50
So we first asked respondents, "How..." "Does your family or do your parents-slash-guardian, do they set limits on how you use technology?" And we found the answer is about a third say, "Yes." So it's sort of a minority to have parents set limits on tech, but a pretty large minority. And then, when we asked the individuals who said, "No, I have no family limits on technology," when we asked them, "Do you set your own limits?" Over half of them actually said, "Yes."
Amy Crouch 14:26
And so of kids and teenagers who have no kinds of parental guidelines around technology, a majority of them are actually trying to set their own guidelines, trying to create their own sets of disciplines. And I just found that really pleasantly surprising to see that it's not, this is not just something that parents are imposing on kids. But kids are seeing that there are problems with devices and the way they impact us and are seeking to live differently. And I think that is awesome.
Chris McAlilly 14:59
I think that that's so helpful, because I think it's also in some ways encouraging that, you know, I have these other set of expectations, a set of hopes and a set of fears for my children. And I see the world as it is, and I think increasingly so. I think more so than... My kids are a decade or a little bit more younger than Eddie's. And I think...
Eddie Rester 15:22
You're just saying I'm old.
Chris McAlilly 15:23
No, I'm not. I'm not saying you're old, man. I'm not saying you're old. I'm just saying that I think that's there was just more optimism a decade ago or more about the ways in which the internet and technology were going to make our lives better, that were going to lead to a world that was more... I mean, I think there was a sense that these large, these big tech companies also had a certain set of convictions and commitments towards the larger social good. And I think that there's a greater sense of, I guess, pessimism right now that, I mean, an awareness that those companies have, they have profit motives. They're driven by certain stock market goals, and the expectations of their show shareholders in ways that may not be aligned with our personal interests, or the larger kind of social goods that we would have hoped for.
Chris McAlilly 16:17
And so I think that that just is really scary as a parent, and I think that's one of the things I like about your perspective, is that you're, in some ways you're saying to the parents out there, and those who are older, that are worried, that kids kind of have a sense of resilience, and an awareness and a maturity to kind of sort through these issues, if, you know. if we can give them proper support.
Eddie Rester 16:46
The chapter that I found, just, for me, at least is, if you're reading the book, each chapter--there are eight chapters. It's "We don't have to..." in kind of a, "we don't have to do a certain thing with our technology." The last chapter is a very positive chapter, but the one that really captured me--two of them--was "We Don't Have to Be Distracted." And we'll talk about the other one in just a minute. And what you offer to a reader, and hopefully it's students who are reading this, is that they have agency. Talk a little bit about kind of what you mean when you say "distracted," and maybe a little bit about that agency that we have.
Amy Crouch 17:30
Yeah, well, I'm so glad that you touched on that because I think my mission with this book was to say we don't have to live the way that technology kind of imagines and almost... I won't say forces, but inclines us towards. And I think distraction is a great example. Now, distraction has always been something that's faced people. I think it's Pascal, who said, you know, the fundamental problem with humans is that you can't sit alone in a room with your thoughts for 10 minutes. I'm probably butchering that. But this has always been a problem, right? That it is really hard to just sit and observe without getting distracted by something. However, I think that how our devices are making it so much harder because at the amount of just the amount of content, I won't even call it entertainment, but consumable content on the internet is now practically infinite, at least to the point where no human being could watch or read or listen to every single item of content on the internet, right? It's literally beyond any single person.
Amy Crouch 18:52
And so we have gotten to the point where we now have infinite, practically infinite distraction in our back pockets. And one of the things that I bring up in the book is this idea of the seven minute rule, which I didn't come up with. It's from this wonderful sociologists Sherry Turkle. But she writes about how in conversations, there's, like, this seven minute mark. For about seven minutes, you kind of talk about whatever--the weather, you chat about nothing in particular. And after seven minutes, you've kind of run out of just, you know, weather, sports, etc. And you kind of have to persevere through those seven minutes to get to the point where someone takes a risk, where someone volunteers something that isn't about whether it rained that day. And so there it's this idea that you have to persevere a little bit to get to what is worth listening to.
Amy Crouch 19:57
And I actually think that that applies to all of our lives. I think that the really good things in life take time and patience--our relationships, our experience of the world. You kind of need to be able, you need to have the capacity to sit with those things, pay attention to people, to the world, to the tasks that you've been given to do. And I worry that our constant exposure to notifications, to just these always-on stream of entertainment, I worry that that is making it a lot harder for us to become the kinds of people who can sit and pay attention.
Eddie Rester 20:41
One of the things you talk about is, in that chapter, "Our devices don't encourage one-time, moderate distractions. Rather, they encourage a posture of distraction." I found that to be so profound. You mentioned notifications. And one of the things that I've done recently is I've cut off almost every type of notification on my phone, but it's become so insidious there on your computer, your iPad, my TV throws up notifications when a team I follow is now in a close game or their game is about to start. So it's just this constant sense almost that we need to be distracted, and it's hard to break, very hard to break free from that.
Amy Crouch 21:30
It really is. And it can become so overwhelming, right? To have emails constantly pouring in, notifications about the news, notifications about like... I remember, this is, like, 10 years ago, but about some game that people are playing on Facebook. There's something so exhausting about this torrent of information, which presents itself as being so important, but is actually so banal. And I think that, whenever I take time away from devices, I'm always struck by the ways in which it is so calming to not constantly be getting these dings and buzzes that really have very little relevance to the important things in my life.
Chris McAlilly 22:21
I want to take the conversation in a slightly different direction, because I think that distraction is a huge problem. Another one that you write about, and I was talking to a young adult in our church about about this recently, as well, just the constant way in which... It's not just technology. It's the way in which we are presented with the lives of other people for comparison. And you write about this, the way in which... What do you think that that is doing to us? Particularly Instagram, Tik Tok, other other forms of comparative media that really, like, push us to really think of our selves in light of the lives of other people?
Amy Crouch 23:07
Oh, my goodness, I think it is really dangerous. And I don't know if I would have said that five years ago, when I was in high school, but I have become just more and more concerned about what it means that we're spending--especially teenagers and young people--that we're spending so much of our lives on on social media. And I think what really bothers me is that social media, the premise is what is entertaining gets likes. What makes people laugh, what makes people think, "oh, that person looks so good," or what makes people think, "Oh, I'm glad I'm not that person," that is what is worthy. In the world of social media, it's this sheer, like, entertainment value that stands in for real true value. And I just think people are not made to be entertaining.
Amy Crouch 24:10
Yes, there are, you know, legitimate ways in which we should strive to be enjoyable people to be around, right? And, you know, there are people who are beautiful and do things in wonderful ways, and of course, I want to see them and I want to appreciate that. But I just think the fundamental truth of being a human being, just, and our fundamental value as people, does not have to do with how entertaining we are. With whether you'd want to watch a video of me, I don't know, like, trying on clothes for 10 minutes. And I really worry about if we start to let the standards of social media turn into the standards by which we run our lives, if we start to say that what is entertaining online also makes me a worthy and valuable person offline.
Chris McAlilly 25:02
Yeah, I think, you know, often we think about this conversation about worth and value in an economic frame where, you know, so you're trying to present yourself. I mean, the typical way that you think about this is, you get your resume together, you're getting ready to go out into the job market, and you worry about your value, you know, and how much you're worth, in light of job offers, etc. On the flip side, you know, if you're an employer, you're, you know, you're judging the worth or value of people in an economic way, someone who's gonna come and, you know, mow your grass, or do work at any kind of menial labor or whatever. There are ways in which we frame these conversations about what human beings are in this one-dimensional way that's really framed up by the economy.
Chris McAlilly 25:52
And I do think that you're right. I think the longer that we live with social media, and view... I mean, there's this implicit way of thinking about our humanity that is--that we don't talk about all that often, but is definitely there--which says what we are as human beings is a certain kind of thing, you know. And what we value are the people who can get attention, can get likes, can generate influence, and that it just, it collapses or reduces our humanity to this one dimension, which ought to be a part of it, right? There should be joy. There should be entertainment. There should be collective, you know... We should enjoy a communal life together. But it needs to be in the context of the fullness of our humanity. And it does seem like that's a dimension that we need to... We need to find ways to find our imagination for what it means to be human beyond our technology and social media platforms.
Amy Crouch 26:53
Absolutely. And what really gets me is online, you're creating a brand of yourself. I literally, I've heard 13-year-old girls like talking about, oh, developing your brand. And, like, also fellow 20-year-olds. I'm just like, people are not brands. And if we start working on ourselves, cultivating and crafting our own brands, I just think that will really hurt in the long run. Because it misses just almost everything that is important about you. Very little of that can be distilled into a nice, Instagram-friendly, polished brand. That's just not what makes you a person.
Eddie Rester 27:40
Well, and as I think about that, if you're 14 or 15 years old, and you see yourself as a brand, you're not who you are at 14 or 15. You're not who God has fully created you to be at that stage. You're still growing and developing and becoming that person, and to anchor yourself... I think sometimes, that's what I worry is that sometimes we lose out on who maybe we can be, because we get stuck in who we want others to think we are.
Chris McAlilly 28:13
Well, and also I think it's the sense in which brands are this perpetually present, you know, kind of reality without a past and a future. It's just now now now, and I think, you know, I mean, framing it up. I mean, having the ability to critique social media from a particular vantage point is what I hear in kind of your conviction. So I guess for you, what has, how has your faith or kind of how is the wisdom of the Christian tradition given you an anchor point for who you are as an individual and some leverage, you know, through which or by which to critique constructively your engagement with technology and social media?
Amy Crouch 29:05
Yeah, I would say it's both given me the theoretical tools, but also the very practical day-to-day tools. So taking the more theoretical side first, I just, I really firmly believe that the Christian understanding of what it is to be a human being is what needs to inform my approach to technology, and I think, our approach to technology. And I've kind of been hinting at it this whole time, talking about what is it? What is it? What is it to be a person? What does it mean to be a human? And I think the answer to that is found in Scripture, that we are created in God's image and that I think what is so crucial is that we're not the ones who created ourselves. We, yes, we have been granted autonomy in some sense, in the ways that we live our lives, we've been given the good gift and calling of being able to live out what God has called us to do. But I have not created myself. And I don't need to. I can rest in my own being created as a child of God. And so I think that informs my entire approach to social media, to our devices, is "Is this device, this technology, is this treating me as a person created in God's image or as a product for advertisers?"
Chris McAlilly 30:49
You know, I think about this in terms of Google. I was talking to a friend of mine who grew up in the Wesleyan Methodist tradition and has converted to Catholicism, so he's taking this really deep dive in Catholic theology and in the deep, historic Christian faith. And he was talking about the way in which Google is like, it's almost godlike in a sense. There's this infinite information that is all-knowing. It is ever present. But it is, there's an inert quality to it. Like, it is an impersonal, transcendent presence. It's an impersonal, infinite presence in our lives. And so we go to it in the ways that we go to... That, you know, in a previous generation, people would go to God in prayer, and we ask Google the questions that in a previous generation, or you know, what has historically been associated with religious faith or with prayer.
Chris McAlilly 31:53
And, but what you're getting there is an algorithm and it just doesn't, it's not for you, in the way that God is. And I just... How do you navigate that? I guess, how do you, for a person who--and I'm saying this not out of no judgement at all, because I've asked the most profound questions of my personal life to Google. So I'm not... No, no judgment. No, none of that. I mean, but because I think it's just so pervasive. I guess, how do you think about that?
Amy Crouch 32:26
Well, I think the other unfortunate difference between Google and God is that Google is selfish, and God is loving. And the thing with Google, man, is, you are the product for every single kind of tentacle of the Google octopus in our lives. Like, my attention is the product. I am literally being bought and sold by Google most predominantly to advertisers. And I find that deeply unsettling. It's also rather unsettling that they've abandoned their don't be evil slogan. So it's sort of unfortunate whenever anyone says like, "Oh, actually, we're going to abandon that thing about not being evil."
Amy Crouch 33:16
But I think it is really concerning that our... that we are the products for all of these enormous companies and advertisers, and we don't even quite know it. I think a lot of people don't realize that Google is not actually free. I think a lot of people don't quite realize that the only reason anything on the internet is ever free is because they're buying your eyeballs and selling them. And to be honest, I don't know if this is... I think this is more of a concern or more of the responsibility of people who are creating and innovating in the tech space. It's sort of difficult to say this is what an individual should do about it. I will say I think everybody should have, I think everyone should have a look through the services that they use, examine both the ways in which those, like, online services, you know, treat both members of their own company but are also using you--what they're doing with your data and your privacy.
Amy Crouch 34:41
And I also think that we need to have much less trust in these institutions. Because going back to what you really were asking, it's this idea of, are we treating these institutions as God? Are we treating these completely faceless, impersonal and selfish corporations as the divine voice? And I think the problem is marketing for decades now has been telling us that Google, that Apple, that these are magical companies that can do anything and their devices will do whatever you want. And so I do think that we need to be taking a very hard look at how much trust and faith we're putting in our devices and the services that we use, and need to be very aware that nothing created by humans can have this sort of infinite love and wisdom of God.
Eddie Rester 35:43
You know, a lot of what you just said reminds me of "The Social Dilemma" that came out on Netflix last fall. And one of the things that was so striking about that to me was that the goal of technology is to keep you coming back.
Amy Crouch 36:01
Yes.
Eddie Rester 36:01
To control your, not just your eyeballs, but your emotions in some ways. Because they can monetize that. You're not paying anything, but you're the product. And so they're monetizing you. And I think when, if we're not aware of that, then it takes us, as "The Social Dilemma" talks about, it will lead us where we're, not where we want to go, but where the algorithms and where they want you to go. And so there's, not to be overly dramatic, but there's some I think--or maybe I need to be more dramatic about that--there's a danger there, I think, to our souls.
Eddie Rester 36:44
One of the things you talk about in the book is, we were talking about briefly before we came on, is the near the end of the book where you talk about Sabbath, that we don't have to be exhausted. Most people think about Sabbath, they think about oh, it's it's Sunday. It's going to church day. Or it's, you know, I remember reading the Laura Ingalls Wilder books, and they we just have to sit on the porch of their house. But when you talk about Sabbath in relation to technology, you're really talking about something, a significant approach and understanding of our technology. So share a little bit about that with us.
Amy Crouch 37:26
Yeah, well, I think I am so incredibly fortunate that ever since I was little--actually ever since I can remember--my family has kept a day of rest every Sunday. And since you bring up the sort of unpleasant associations that people have, I will say yes, we were allowed to do fun things. It was complete, it was not about the legalistic side of things. But every Sunday, we set aside our work, and also most of our devices, and just had a day of resting in the world that God has given us, in the family that God created us to be. And it, I would say, it's probably the most important gift that my parents have given me. And I practice the Sabbath to this day.
Amy Crouch 38:22
And so speaking a little more concretely, I think that, first of all, everyone's lives can be transformed in the most marvelous way by keeping a Sabbath, and also that adding rhythms of rest from technology to that day of rest, and also throughout the week, I think that can be really powerful. So taking Sunday, not only away from work, but also from say, bingeing Netflix, scrolling through social media, reading endless emails. Taking a day a week, maybe even more, but starting with a day, just away from the constant comparison, that constant distraction, the flood of information that we've talked about.
Amy Crouch 39:14
I think that what's so special about that day of rest is the way that it grounds us in something outside of us. When I take Sunday off, I'm not putting my trust in myself to you know, finish all my papers and get straight A's. I'm not putting my trust in my iPhone to entertain me all day. I kind of have to put my trust in God and say, The Lord has given me this good day and he will show me what he desires of me this day. And I just think that it's like a spring of water in a desert, honestly, to know that there is a day of rest coming up when you won't have to be beholden to the world of the internet, to the obligations of the rest of your life, but can simply be who God created you to be.
Chris McAlilly 40:10
Are there other resources that you found very practically, out of the Christian tradition, out of your family of origin that you rely upon, as you, I guess, exercise the agency that you have to kind of push back on technology?
Amy Crouch 40:28
Yes, well, I'd say that one of the, like, fundamental underpinnings of the book is the practice of self examination. And I'm not super explicit about it, in those words in the book, because I think "self examination" sounds kind of scary and alarming, so. But I think the practice of spending time in personal examination and confession is so, so helpful when it comes to technology, because our devices, they just sort of slip into our lives in ways that can be quite invisible. Right?
Amy Crouch 41:04
You will almost... Like if you spend an hour on your phone, you might not even notice that it's been an hour. You might not notice that suddenly you're checking your phone every morning, or every time that you're on the bus, right. And so the practice of examining yourself, paying attention to your own behaviors, and then confessing them maybe to God, maybe as appropriate to another person, I think is essential. And then I would also say, Christian practices of contemplation, whether that's meditation on scripture or sort of time spent with silent prayer, I think that goes... It's kind of like a way of cultivating the muscle of attention, a workout for your attention muscles, and really acts as an antidote to the constant posture of distraction and turbulence really, that our devices bring to us.
Eddie Rester 42:05
One of the things I really like about the boo--and for folks who are listening, it's really a book I think, that adults can read. Teenagers can read. It would be a great book, as we're talking about cultivating attention, that families maybe on the Sabbath day, could spend some time talking about as a way to step back from distraction and engage with one another. One of the things you say near the end of the book is that, "Tech can help me build a life worth living, but it can never be the foundation. No amount of tech can replace the hard and lovely work of building a community and following God."
Eddie Rester 42:49
One of the things that you, that threads throughout the book, is that part of the distraction, part of the comparison, in all of that, part of the search for privacy that can sometimes lead to secrecy, is that it steals us away from real relationships. So what what do you find is helpful for folks, you know, in your generation? I hate to say it that way. But what are some of the habits that you have that really keep you connected beyond technology into some of those real relationships?
Amy Crouch 43:25
Oh, yeah. Well, it's felt very harder than ever, with the pandemic. And also, as a college student with a lot of my friends having graduated and moved on, it feels like it is... It can be really tough to have good, meaningful, deep relationships. But they are so essential. And I would just say, I think it really does come back to attention. How can you become the kind of person who sits and listens to your friends no matter what? How can you find the kinds of people who who will sit and listen to you?
Amy Crouch 44:14
And I think, practically, we need to make it a norm to set aside devices whenever you're interacting with somebody else. If you're talking on the phone, maybe go on a walk, so that you're not distracted. I, like, sometimes I see people you know, on the phone, but also scrolling and scrolling on their laptop, you know, so that you're away from distractions. Consider ways of connecting, like reading a book together or even watching a movie together, I'll say, that are kind of outside of... that allow you to, I guess, experience each other in different ways, right, beyond conversation. And just always practice the, I think, essential and good work of listening and seeking to love and understand.
Eddie Rester 45:22
Amy, it's been just a great joy to spend some time with you today talking about your book. The book is My Tech-Wise Life: Growing Up and Making Choices in a World of Devices." Just appreciate your perspective and spending some of your afternoon with us today.
Amy Crouch 45:39
It's been great.
Eddie Rester 45:40
[OUTRO] Thank you for listening to this episode of The Weight.
Chris McAlilly 45:44
If you liked what you heard today, feel free to share the podcast with other people that are in your network. Leave us a review. That's always really helpful. Subscribe, and you can follow us on our social media channels.
Eddie Rester 45:56
If you have any suggestions or guests you'd like us to interview or anything you'd like to share with us, you can send us an email at info@theweightpodcast.com. [END OUTRO]