“Practically Divine” with Becca Stevens
Show Notes:
Becca Stevens is a speaker, social entrepreneur, author, priest, founder, and President of Thistle Farms. She has been featured on PBS NewsHour, The Today Show, CNN, ABC World News, named a CNN Hero, and White House Champion of Change. Becca founded Thistle Farms in 1997 with a single home for survivors of trafficking and addiction.
In this episode, Chris and Eddie sit down to talk with Becca about her work as an advocate for women--standing alongside women and helping them pull themselves, and by extension their communities, out of a history of trauma and poverty and into a life thriving with healing, hope, and often tea.
In her latest book (and her favorite book to date), Practically Divine, Becca invites us to see the divine in everyday, ordinary experiences and to find the potential for humor, wonder, and freedom by embracing our creativity and creating something from nothing. She threads wisdom from her mother into stories and poems to help us live a life that is practically divine.
Resources:
Learn more about Thistle Farms.
Watch Becca Stevens preach at Oxford University United Methodist Church.
Follow her on Facebook and Instagram.
Transcript:
Eddie Rester 00:00 I'm Eddie Rester.
Chris McAlilly 00:01
I'm Chris McAlilly. Welcome to The Weight.
Eddie Rester 00:03
Today's conversation is with Becca Stevens. She is
Chris McAlilly 00:06 Awesome. She is awesome.
Eddie Rester 00:08
The awesomeness of Thistle Farms. She is been awarded the Champion of Change award by
the president back in 2011. She has written a bunch of books, but mainly she is...
Chris McAlilly 00:23
She's a priest. But she's an entrepreneur as well.
Eddie Rester 00:26
I expected to you to say awesome there.
Chris McAlilly 00:28
Oh, awesome. Oh, man, you were trying to set me up and I totally missed the setup. I'm sorry,
man. We could try it again.
Eddie Rester 00:35 No, no, just move on.
Chris McAlilly 00:36
Yeah, she's a priest. But her path into the priesthood is something. It's surprising. It's disturbing, but also beautiful in a lot of ways. She has found a way through the church to create communities and organizations that are that are doing social entrepreneurship, social justice, on a range of issues. And really, a lot of her work is really tied to healing and empowering women.
Eddie Rester 01:10
Women who have been trafficked or caught up in addiction or come out of prostitution. And she has done the hard work of dreaming dreams that allow women to discover who they are as God's children. And you're going to hear a lot of amazing things that bring her hope. I think one of the things for me that was important was when she said, "It's not crazy to think you can change the world. It's crazy to think that there's nothing I can do to change the world."
Chris McAlilly 01:40
Yeah, and that big change, big kind of idealistic, you know, global change really happens in small ways with small investments, and that those small investments are not insignificant. In fact, that if we do that, together and at scale, that things can really happen. And the other thing that we didn't talk about that I wish, you know we're gonna have to have her back at some point to talk about, is just the power of stories and storytelling. She's...
Eddie Rester 02:09 She's got 'em.
Chris McAlilly 02:10
She's got 'em, and she can tell them, and you're gonna hear a lot of them today. The other thing is, I think, people of faith and churches and organizations, I think, you know, to make an impact have to adopt a kind of entrepreneurial mindset. And you kind of hear what that looks like in real time with Becca. And I think that's something that I'm going to take with me from the conversation. What else? What else do you think is worth listening for, Eddie?
Eddie Rester 02:44
Well, I think when she talks about gratitude and being grateful, as a way into...
Chris McAlilly 02:51 Creativity.
Eddie Rester 02:51
Creativity is so important. And I think that's one of the gifts that I have to rediscover over and over and over throughout my life is the gift of gratitude. And so, so encouraging, and I think you're going to hear a lot of energy from Becca, and you're going to hear a lot of honesty and vulnerability from her. I think you're going to be encouraged when it's all said and done.
Chris McAlilly 03:14
She's just the real deal, man.
Eddie Rester 03:16 Absolutely.
Chris McAlilly 03:17
She's the real deal. And I'm excited to get to share the conversation with you guys. I hope that
you enjoy it.
Eddie Rester 03:25 Share it.
Chris McAlilly 03:26
Share it with your people. And you know, if you have not left a review for the podcast...
Eddie Rester 03:32 It's time.
Chris McAlilly 03:33
It's time. It's been two years, people.
Eddie Rester 03:35 It's time.
Chris McAlilly 03:36 It's time. Get it done.
Eddie Rester 03:37 Get it done.
Chris McAlilly 03:37
Let people know. It helps us spread the word. And we do like you.
Eddie Rester 03:44
Yeah, we appreciate all of you.
Chris McAlilly 03:45 We're grateful for you.
Eddie Rester 03:46
We're grateful. There you go. We're grateful. Enjoy this episode.
Eddie Rester 03:51
[INTRO] Life can be heavy. We carry around with us the weight of our doubt, pain or suffering,
[INTRO] Life can be heavy. We carry around with us the weight of our doubt, pain or suffering,
our mental health, our family system, our politics. This is a podcast that creates space for all of that.
Chris McAlilly 04:02
We want to talk about these things with humility, charity, and intellectual honesty. But more than that, we want to listen. It's time to open up our echo chamber. Welcome to The Weight. [END INTRO]
Chris McAlilly 04:16
We're here today with Becca Stevens. Becca, thanks for being on the podcast today.
Becca Stevens 04:20
I'm so happy to be here. I've already had fun with you guys and can't wait to see where this
conversation goes.
Chris McAlilly 04:26
We've all had a lot of coffee today, I feel like, so there's good energy already.
Eddie Rester 04:30
A lot of good conversation before we ever hit the red button to get things going today. So Becca, thank you so much for spending some time with us. We know that you're busy with, I mean, you move--just reading about you and talking to other people about you--you move in a thousand different ways every ten minutes it feels like.
Becca Stevens 04:47
It's an illusion. And also I'm not hyped up on coffee because I don't even drink coffee. For
everybody out there, I'm a tea drinker. I believe tea is where the healing and love is.
Chris McAlilly 05:00
You're gonna have to talk me into that, because I'm definitely hyped up on coffee today. I have
three young kids and so, you know, you gotta do what you can to get into the day some days.
Becca Stevens 05:11
But you know, tea gets you caffeine but it does it in a gentler way where you don't feel so hyped up and rigid and then down, then you crash. You know, the reason tea is the oldest cultivated beverage in the world, linked to both injustice and justice throughout the centuries, is that it is a powerful drink. I mean, Winston Churchill said they won World War Two because of tea.
Chris McAlilly 05:37
I'm more in the Ted Lasso camp on this one. I think, you know, I don't know if you watch that show, Becca, but he goes over and they offer him tea. And he's like, No, this is terrible. He just.. I'm with you. I'm willing to be persuaded. I'm willing to be persuaded.
Becca Stevens 05:52
I quoted Winston Churchill and you're quoting Ted Lasso at me.
Eddie Rester 05:56 This is the world we live in.
Chris McAlilly 05:57 I know.
Becca Stevens 05:58
I can't live in this world. I'm done.
Chris McAlilly 06:01 I have so much to learn.
Eddie Rester 06:02
Chris, we like it when Chris crashes around here. Actually, it's much easier for us to deal with.
He gets the high in the morning, and then about 1:30, we can all deal with Chris.
Chris McAlilly 06:11 [LAUGHTER]
Eddie Rester 06:13
Becca, one of the things that, your story is that you have over and over, pursued these amazing dreams and ways to just invest and help, particularly women, over the course of the years. People know about Thistle Farms. But maybe for those who don't, talk a little bit about the build. What is Thistle Farms and how did you get there, creating that space?
Becca Stevens 06:44
Yeah, well, anybody that wants to know anything about Thistle Farms, please go on our website. But in general, it's a global movement for women's freedom. We are celebrating our 25th year. We started with a single house in Nashville, Tennessee. We've grown justice enterprises, with annual incomes of over $5 million just on sales of products. We have safe houses. We have sister communities around the country with more, I think it's about like 560 beds now. And we have global shared trade partners in 20 different countries where we have this arrangement where women get paid based on retail prices better than anything fair trade or any work has ever been done so that women can actually get out of poverty. So it's really become this exciting, beautiful movement for women's freedom and hope for women who have, you know, experienced sexual exploitation, trafficking, addiction, the violence and vulnerability of poverty, all of it. I mean, it's been my life's work, and it's been my great, great joy.
Chris McAlilly 08:03
I know that, and I've heard as you preached and I've heard you talk through the years, that one of the kind of the animating, I guess, influence of your life was your mom. I wonder if you... I know that she lost her husband, you lost your father at a young age. I wonder if you could maybe tell folks a little bit about your mom.
Becca Stevens 08:30
Sure. So my mom and dad were from New York, if you can believe it with my accent. I was born in Connecticut. But when I was five years old, my dad was called--he was an Episcopal priest--to come to Nashville, Tennessee to start a church. So he piled five kids into a station wagon with my mom, 35 years old, they drove down South. And he was killed that year by drunk driver. I mean, killed. And, I mean, he was in a Volkswagen and was killed by a guy driving a tractor trailer. I know. It was really awful. And it was on my mom's 35th birthday. It was actually on her birthday.
Becca Stevens 09:14
And she was left with five kids. She began to work at an Episcopal community center called St. Luke's as a daycare worker. So you can imagine what life was like as a daycare worker with five kids trying to pay bills and stuff. She was creative. She was fun. She was hard core in a lot of ways. But she truly was an inspiration and a joy. You know what happens to kids when they have a trauma like that, and what happened in our family, one is, you know, we did get pushed below the poverty line on that day. And one trauma begets another begets another, and it was one of the elders in the church that my dad had started that began to sexually abuse me, starting about six months afterwards, like being really nice and came in to, you know, help our family, make sure we were gonna be okay. And he abused me for what I can remember is about three years.
Becca Stevens 10:28
And it actually started in the church, which is really, really creepy of him. But it didn't end there, but that's where it started. And you know, for me, I think, I had this crazy childhood--just crazy of really amazing creativity and strength from my mom and my siblings and other women's groups, even in the church, the women's groups, they're the ones that got me through school and all kinds of stuff, but also really, the dysfunction and craziness and gross ways that communities can foster abuse and silence people. You know, it was all that. It was all this crazy mix. But I think that was kind of where my heart was forged in fire, to want to work with women and help folks for my life.
Eddie Rester 11:27
So what what helped you make the turn? For a lot of women and men who experienced sexual abuse it becomes, and understandably so, just a weight that holds them. But for you, you turn that into the fire that leads you to really help so many women out of really incredibly hard, painful places. What turned that for you?
Becca Stevens 11:57
Yeah, and I don't think I ever turned. I don't think... I think I never turned away. That's the crazy thing. I have no idea. But I know one of the biggest graces in my life is that I never thought it was God or God did this, you know, how people are angry at God and right, whatever that means. And God bless them on that journey. For whatever reason, G`od was never my issue. I always knew that the guy was screwed up. I always knew that the systems were not right. And I always knew that God was love. Like, that never turned. Those experiences did not make that.
Becca Stevens 12:34
Mind you, I was really messed up from the abuse, by the way, in all the ways that kids get messed up. I was, you know, super successful in school, super dysfunctional in relationships, way over sexualized all of that stuff. And I met my husband at Vanderbilt Divinity school when I was 24, and he was, honest to god, my saving grace. Not that he rescued me in any way, but he walked through with me the next really intense six or seven years of marriage and birthing children, having my oldest son be my age where the abuse started for me and me basically falling apart and thinking, "I never want him to touch me again." You know, all that stuff, you go through and he, by God, did it all with me. We're just celebrating 34 years of marriage. And he is one of the kinder, gentler men, not because he fixed me or saved me. But it was like, he loved me through all of it. And I mean, I don't even... It makes me teary to talk about it, because I would never really be able to... I don't think a lot of people get that in their life, and I'm so grateful.
Chris McAlilly 14:01
Why did you become a priest?
Becca Stevens 14:05
You know, that's a really good question. I was a math major as an undergrad at Sewanee. And I left that job and went to work in DC to work on hunger issues. I felt like that was the basic justice issue. And while I was there, I was thinking about, really what I want to do is be in community, to do this work, and to help women and help communities be safe, healing. I know that communities are the oldest entity that the world has ever known for healing, and so I really wanted to help lead a community that would live into its full potential, kind of thing. And so it made sense to me to go to Divinity School. I could get health insurance if I was ordained. You know, I mean, it's a guaranteed paycheck and nobody really knows what pastors do anyway.
Eddie Rester 15:01
My brother says I work one day a week, most weeks, just one hour of that day.
Becca Stevens 15:05
Yeah. And the rest of the time is just visiting, basically.
Eddie Rester 15:08 Just hanging out. Yeah.
Becca Stevens 15:09
Just hanging out, visiting. No, but anyway, and I just felt like it was the only path I could think of, to really do the work that I longed to do with my whole heart. And it was the right call for me. I don't even know how I got ordained, by the way.
Chris McAlilly 15:18 [LAUGHTER]
Eddie Rester 15:27
Most of us don't. When you look back at it, you're like, what were they thinking?
Becca Stevens 15:32 Yes, yes.
Eddie Rester 15:35 It is a grace for sure.
Chris McAlilly 15:37
You came to Nashville though, after I guess after getting ordained, you came back to Nashville after being in Sewanee, and you came to Vanderbilt and St. Augustine Chapel, and you saw some problems in Nashville. I guess, how did you, those first few years that you were there, navigating this life as a priest this life in marriage, young children... You know, I think the the thing that has always amazed me about you is your ability to keep your head up and out, you know, and that longing to be in relationship with and to be at work with folks far beyond the boundaries of the church, or even that Vanderbilt community. I think that, you know, it would have been easy to kind of keep your head down. Or I can imagine that for some folks, it would be easy to just kind of coast. What continued to drive to drive your longing, your passion in Nashville?
Becca Stevens 16:44
Ooh, that's a big question. I think... I don't know. I mean, like, what drives you to take the next breath? You know, I don't know. I probably should have a good answer. But it's like, I have no idea. But it's in me. And it's in all of us. We want our life to mean something. And we want our life to be full of love and joy. We want that stuff. All of us do. And it is this place where I get to be with women, working alongside people who are doing heroic healing work that my soul is fed. And so I move towards that.
Becca Stevens 17:26
I think the thing that I'm so grateful for is that mostly, not all the way, but mostly, I haven't had to compromise some of those ideals about what I longed for and what I want to live for. And I'm so grateful for that. But like, you know, it'd be like saying, if you were to tell me, like, "don't start another organization with another group of women." It'd be like saying to a songwriter like my husband, "I don't want you to write another song." That would never happen. He will always go, like, "hey, wait a minute, I have another song." So it's like, yeah, guess what? I have another idea.
Eddie Rester 18:08
What do you think, you know, as I sit here, thinking about kind of the organizations you started in saying that, you know, that kind of that kind of ability, I believe is woven by God into all of us--that there are places where we can use who we are, the experiences that we've had, the life we've been given, the resources we have, connections we have to really begin to change the lives around us, which I think is what God calls us to do. But for some folks, they never are able to kind of stand up and take that step. What do you see that holds us back?
Becca Stevens 18:50
Well, I don't think, I mean, I think it looks really different for everybody. But I definitely don't think everybody needs to start organizations to express it. I think the idea is really expressing how we are practically divine. In other words, how we are both practical, useful in our lives, that we feel like we have purpose and how we are connected to the vine, the branch, the being, our Creator. How are we connected? And how are we useful? And that's where, for me, at least, I feel passion is rooted, dreams are grounded, where you and I get to say, "oh, my gosh, I have a right to this thought. I have a right to this place where I want to act and engage in the world."
Becca Stevens 19:42
So I think for me, there's a couple things that it's easy for people to do. And one of them is to begin with saying "I'm grateful." If we can begin there instead of "I'm mad"--not that you're not mad--or "I'm confused"--not that you're not confused--but to begin with "I'm just grateful." And I think that's the closest I've gotten to faith in my life is to get to deep gratitude. You know, like the leper in the story, the one that comes back and says, "Thank you." Jesus says, "Your faith is made you well." So if we can get to gratitude, Jesus equivocates that to faith, which is unbelievable to me.
Becca Stevens 20:24
The other thing, real quick, that is also to remember what sparks our creative passion. That was it. Your turn.
Chris McAlilly 20:32
No. So you talking about gratitude reminded me of this, somebody gave me this little card during the pandemic. And I think they probably gave it to me because they saw that I was increasingly worried, anxious, defensive, or insecure, or whatever, you know, all the negative emotions that can kind of draw you down, they gave me this thing called a mood elevator. And at the bottom of it is all the things that you don't like about yourself, when you get angry, or hostile, or depressed, or stressed out, or burned out, or whatever. All that stuff is like on the bottom of the elevator, and at the very top is gratitude. And I think, I mean, as you're describing, it seems like gratitude is not just a mood, you know, or feeling but it's a practice. It's a habit. It's something that you can engage. And it leads to wisdom and insight and creativity and innovation and all those things.
Chris McAlilly 21:24
It's been helpful for me to kind of just check my temperature, especially during the pandemic, because there have been a lot of days where things feel a bit beyond my control. And I just had to kind of check myself ,when I'm spending too many days in the dumps. And I do think, to your point, I think it's community, it's friendships, deep, deep friendships, that have helped me kind of maintain that posture, that practice of gratitude.
Becca Stevens 21:52
I love that. And I love that if people are wondering, you know, anybody, the one person out there listening to this podcast.
Chris McAlilly 22:00 Yeah, there's only one.
Eddie Rester 22:01 There's just it's my wife.
Becca Stevens 22:04
No, I'm saying if there's one person among the billions that are listening to the podcast, that, you know, needs to remember, like, how to get there, how to get to that place of gratitude, or how to get to that place of feeling some inspiration, you know, my advice is to run to community and not just in the community, but some community that is safe for you. You know, because community does hold us up, and it holds us accountable, and it holds us together. It's all that good stuff, and people need it. And that was really... I mean, community is not the antidote to loneliness. Dorothy Day, who started the Catholic Worker Movement called her whole autobiography "The Long Loneliness." So it doesn't take away loneliness. But what it does, in my opinion, is it helps you bear it with other people.
Eddie Rester 23:02
A few minutes ago, you mentioned the words "practically divine," which is also the title of the last book you wrote, released last September. And you've said multiple times that it was your favorite book to write. So tell us a little bit about that book. What made it your favorite book to write? What can people expect to hear if they pick that book up?
Becca Stevens 23:26
Yeah, I know, I put that in there. I'm sorry, I slipped that word in there so you would ask me about my book. I appreciate it.
Eddie Rester 23:32
I picked up what you were putting down, see.
Becca Stevens 23:37
You know, it's my favorite book I ever got to write because I think it's my best writing. And so I feel like, it actually will be entertaining for people to read it,not just hopefully gain some insights or maybe a word or two of inspiration, but it's like really good, old-fashioned southern storytelling. It's got wisdom from my mom, from 25 years of working with survivors around the world, all woven together in this timeline of COVID. And so I think it's kind of the right book for the right time that we need to be able to laugh a little bit. We need to be able to feel some spark of joy. We need to be challenged out of maybe our cynicism or numbness or whatever we're feeling. But I'm hopeful that this book will help start conversations and help people make small changes that make big differences.
Eddie Rester 24:41
One of the things you've been real clear is that it's not a self help book. This isn't a you know, three habits of highly grateful people, but it's stories and it's quotes from your mom and it's almost like you're inviting people along a journey toward a life that can be, with some just practical things that really will begin to open you up. Maybe. Am I getting that right?
Becca Stevens 25:12
Well, I should have had you write the intro because that's exactly right. And you said it better than I did.
Chris McAlilly 25:17
I think that, you know, one of the things that I appreciate about the book, and then also kind of this, I guess, the through-line in these different organizations that you started--from Magdalene House into Thistle Farms into some of the stuff that you were talking about, the work you've been doing in Botswana--is that there's that big change, and global movements really are small. And the investment in particular, one house of women, 10 women who journey together towards healing. Talk a little bit about that. Either kind of where that began for you in Nashville or kind of where you're seeing the fire kind of rekindled in your own heart, in your own in your own passion today with the the new organization that you've been a part of starting in Botswana.
Becca Stevens 26:15
What a beautiful question. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Did I say thank you?
Eddie Rester 26:19 You did.
Becca Stevens 26:20
Oh, good. So I will say that I think sometimes, like when you think about human trafficking, just somebody saying that almost makes you go numb. It's like, that is so huge. It's billions of dollars. You know, millions of people all around the world, how can I do anything to help? You know, you wonder that. And what I've learned is that it's not crazy to do something small and imagine that that small act in great love, joined with a thousand other small acts by friends, done in love, doesn't change the balance of love in the world.
Chris McAlilly 27:04 Come on.
Becca Stevens 27:04
What's crazy is to do nothing and think anything is going to change. That's the crazy part. So when we started looking at the global marketplace, and how women are trafficked--I mean, bought and sold, like, cheaper than drugs. I mean, women who are refugees, women who are so impoverished that their families sell them. I mean, I was just with a woman yesterday whose mother sold her for $5,000 at the age of 14, with her and her baby that she had already had. And that was in Tennessee, friends. That's not in anywhere in the world.
Becca Stevens 27:46
But when we do small things, women find healing. You know, I've learned that you rape one woman and you can basically kill the spirit of a village. But all the data shows if we invest in small groups of women, you can heal villages. It doesn't have to be overwhelming and women have to have economic power and choice. So more and more my theological response to the buying and selling of other human beings has been to challenge and engage the marketplace, not just churches, but for you and I to engage the actual marketplace where this stuff happens down river.
Becca Stevens 28:32
My latest example is in Botswana, Africa in Gaborone, the capital. I was there this summer, working with a beautiful woman, Pearl Hassan, who everybody should fall in love with: 35 years old, two kids violently abused in her early teens. She was hospitalized. When she got out of the hospital, she was kicked out of her home for shaming the family. She went on, survived the streets, went on to school, became a social worker, worked in hospice work. And finally she was ready to start this venture working with other women who have been prostituted and abused in this southern Africa country.
Becca Stevens 29:19
And so, finally COVID lifted. I was able to go in July. Now, Omicron's hit Southern Africa again, it's all shut down again. But she was able to get funding from us for like, you know, very little money to hire trainers, transportation, pay stipends to the women. They've started this enterprise and first she got a call from the mayor of Gaborone, saying, "I need to meet with you. I heard you're gathering women." I mean, what's more threatening than a group of women who are on fire, right?
Becca Stevens 29:57
So she met with the mayor and then, you know, some of the big designers of Botswana. And Botswana is known for its basket weaving all over the world. They had this festival of baskets, the women were invited to speak. And now she met with the First Lady of Botswana. And they're interested in actually helping her launch to the next level. And that's in a matter of months. And so I want to say to everybody out there, when you get discouraged, and think "I can only do this small thing. I can only drink from this cup made by survivor in Oaxaca, Mexico. I can only use this one basket as a gift from the women in Botswana. I can only drink this tea from women in Kenya. I can only offer this prayer for sisters in Syria." Those are big things. And when we do it together and scale it, it starts to have an impact. And people start listening. And the shame that was born by the women's backs becomes power to transform that story into women can heal and they can heal their communities.
Eddie Rester 31:12
That's so encouraging, because I, you know, for me, thinking about problems, whether it's in the community, or the church, or in the world, it does get just overwhelming in the number of things that get thrown at us. And I think, part of the joy, but also, maybe the discouragement of the world we live in where there's so much information thrown at us all the time, is that it just becomes noise to us. But there are ways that we can engage that, you know, don't have to be raise a million dollars and fly food to where. It's really, how can we find a place to partner with in the world that's bringing healing?
Chris McAlilly 31:55
I think that you know, what I hear today in you, Becca, is that you've seen a lot of breakthroughs. And you've had, you've seen things happen again and again and again and again. And there is a deep confidence that's born of multiple decades. When I moved to Nashville, in around 2005, and walked into St. Augustine, and began to kind of get a sense of that atmosphere and was there for only a few months. But I remember, there were moments where there was vulnerability in you and there was uncertainty about kind of, "are we going to be able to do this?" And I just remember, you haven't always... I mean, there's always been clear, like, there's passion and there's clarity about the power of love to heal. And the community's work to bring about healing and change and things were beginning to move at Thistle Farms around that time.
Chris McAlilly 33:01
But I just remember, I mean, if there's somebody out there who's, you know, trying to start an organization or who's limping along in a nonprofit--they have a big dream, but they're hitting obstacle after obstacle after obstacle and are discouraged, maybe discouraged by the pandemic, and all the different things that can come--what wisdom would you offer to that person today?
Becca Stevens 33:28
I would, yeah, and I don't know that I have tons of wisdom. I have a ton of tenacity. And I'm a survivor in every sense of that word, and would love to walk alongside anybody that's going through that. I mean, I sponsor days of sitting with people. We have it. It's called Education and Outreach Days at Thistle Farms, but basically, listening and sitting with people as they're trying to figure that stuff out. Because I think discernment has to happen over a longer time, not short. Anybody that wants to talk to me, you know, direct messaged me, DM me on Facebook or Instagram, Becca Stevens, I will answer you and I will start this dialogue with you. Because the best thing in my life has been relationships and people willing to talk to me. And I'm happy to do that for anybody. That's my only wisdom is find the people that you can talk to who don't shoot down your dreams.
Chris McAlilly 34:27
I want to know more about what you mean when you say "discernment happens over a longer
period of time." What does that look like for you?
Becca Stevens 34:34
Well, you know, I told you I was a math major. So if I had to try to define it, I'd probably say that the amount of time it takes for you to go from a thought to an action is in direct proportion to the amount of knowledge, patience, and understanding you need. So I don't think it's like, "oh, wait a minute, I'd like to start a cafe that's a justice cafe that serves tea that hires women who have been on the streets." That doesn't happen the next day. And your timeline might be that it happens in six months. But the actual timeline is year and a half. And that was exactly the right amount of time it took for you to learn what you needed to learn to be ready to open it.
Eddie Rester 35:27
I wonder, as you look around Nashville, or you look around the world, what are the places that give you, or what are other stories, maybe not even within the Thistle Farms global network, what gives you great hope in what you see around around you today?
Becca Stevens 35:47
Today, it's you guys, honest to God. It's a couple dudes in Oxford, Mississippi, who are willing to have the conversation and willing to put it out there in the world, in thinking that something good will come from it. That gives me great hope. This is my chance to tell a story of love today. You know, this is my shot at it. So you give me hope today, and usually almost every day, I get hope.
Eddie Rester 36:15
"If you pay attention," that's, I think, where so many of us--I include me in that--that we get stuck, is that it's easy, easy to listen to the dark, and it's easy to look even for the dark and miss all these signs of hope that are emerging. You know, for me recovering gratitude and hope,after a lot of long, dark months in the pandemic was really about how do I look for light again? And I think what I hear from you is that there's a lot of light out there already, if we can just name it. And you continue to see it. What are some other places that you're seeing light and hope happening around you?
Becca Stevens 37:02
Oh, my gosh, this morning, I had to contact a donor because one of the graduates was putting a down payment on a house. You know, she's somebody that was trafficked in Memphis, Tennessee, and her folks that trafficked her shaved her head and put her in a back room for a long time. And she stayed out on the streets, even after she got out of that situation, for years. She's reunited with her daughter, and she's buying a home. That's hopeful. You know, I just did Reba McIntyre's podcast because the Lifetime Network was donating a home to a new graduate that had completed her two-year program and had custody of her four- and six-year-old, and needed a place to be able to go with them. That gives me hope. We opened up a safe house in the middle of the pandemic. And I've met women from around the country who are just looking for a safe house for one night while they figure out their long-term housing options. And that safe house has been full of hope. I mean, hope to me doesn't mean you're not still in the middle of it and that there's not still bad things. It just means you can see that one candle can light a path through a dark night. So it's all around me.
Chris McAlilly 38:31
So I feel like one of the things for me that's been really frustrating is just the way in which the church can kind of turn in on itself, and the way in which the church can get into these, I don't know, inside baseball skirmishes, and we can forget that there's an entire world that's hurt, broken, in immense pain, and in need of healing. And I feel like, I mean, basic to kind of...
Becca Stevens 39:03
You lost me on the sports analogy. What did you mean?
Chris McAlilly 39:06 I mean, just like, um...
Eddie Rester 39:08 Insider conversations.
Chris McAlilly 39:09
Nobody cares. Like, we're fighting about things and nobody cares. You know, like, they just don't care. And we kind of forget where people are sometimes. And I think, I don't know, I think that what ,I guess another way of that, you know...
Becca Stevens 39:26
It's called death by committee.
Chris McAlilly 39:29
That's right. Yeah. And life by entrepreneurship or kind of, you know, staying in touch with... You hear somebody like Bryan Stevenson or others talk about proximity to pain, that that's an important quality for people of faith or people of goodwill or concern, to make sure that they stay in touch and in proximity to pain. That's one of the things I see in you. But then there's also this entrepreneurial dimension of not just creating community but creating an organizational institutional life that can sustain that through time. And that's a whole nother skill set that I'm sure, you know, I think a lot of people get into ministry, pastoral ministry or whatever, because they want to do that kind of work, and then get bogged down in death by committee. For pastors or people of faith or people of goodwill that are out there that are trying to connect those dots or to get moving again, I think what, you know what I mean? I wonder if you could speak to that.
Becca Stevens 40:37
Yes, I can totally speak to it. I say the easiest way, you know, proximity to pain, what I say is, if you need to write a sermon, go to prison, not a library. That's the easiest way I can say it to anybody, especially Divinity School students, anybody that that is where you'll find the gospel. And to other people, I think it is... If I was, you know, in trauma, in addiction, in all of those things, if I found myself in that, the last thing I want to do is go to programs all day and talk about it. I'd much rather be productive, make something and in the meantime have alongside that conversations with women who have gone through similar things, access to my mental health and my recovery stuff I need. But if you're just saying it's nothing about me being able to engage creatively and have a voice and have my own say, and make choices and earn money, it would make me crazy. And so part of my idea of starting the various organizations is saying women get to choose what their healing looks like. It's not something we do to another person.
Eddie Rester 42:02
And that gives them the power to chart a journey that maybe for the very first time, is actually
their journey, and not the journey someone else has put them on.
Becca Stevens 42:13
And I would just challenge you to say it's not us giving them power. It's recognizing that all of
us are born as children of God and recognizing the power within all of us.
Eddie Rester 42:26 Amen.
Chris McAlilly 42:27
It's been good to visit with you today, Becca. Thank you so much for who you are, for what you
do and for taking the time today to engage the conversation with us.
Becca Stevens 42:38
Y'all are the best. I can't wait to see you.
Eddie Rester 42:40
It's gonna be great. It's gonna be wonderful, when you get to Oxford.
Becca Stevens 42:45
Woo! We'll go see Faulkner's house, is that it?
Eddie Rester 42:47
That's it. Roanoke. We'll get you a good tour. How's that?
Becca Stevens 42:50
Becca Stevens 42:50
Chris McAlilly 42:51 We got you.
Becca Stevens 42:52
I would love it. Okay, peace.
Chris McAlilly 42:54 Peace.
Eddie Rester 42:54 Peace to you.
Eddie Rester 42:55
[OUTRO] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, the best way to help us is to like,
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Chris McAlilly 43:03
If you would like to support this work financially or if you have an idea for a future guest, you can go to theweightpodcast.com. [END OUTRO]