“From Womb to Tomb” with Ashley Abercrombie

Shownotes:

Abortion is a multi-faceted, multi-layered issue that the church often fails to engage with the depth and compassion it requires. Regardless of one’s position on this issue, the stories of those who have struggled with this impossible decision have been discounted in the midst of political fervor. Poverty forces many vulnerable, marginalized women to grapple with the decision to have an abortion, yet this factor is often overlooked. How do we make space for grace, respect, and empathy in such a nuanced conversation?

Author, speaker, and podcast host Ashley Abercrombie has a strong passion for justice ignited by family members who taught her that faith extends further than a Sunday and helped her practice the ministry of presence. Ashley has pastored for many years, has served as a prison chaplain, and has participated in anti-human trafficking work. For 10 years, she has walked alongside vulnerable women leading abortion recovery groups, and she is familiar with what this issue looks like on both a policy level and a personal level. 

She joins Eddie and Chris to discuss what it means to be pro-life for the whole life, the shame and stigma associated with the impossible decision to have an abortion and the healing process that follows, the role of the evangelical church in perpetuating a harmful discourse around this issue, and the way our convictions can motivate our compassion in a broken world. Ashley encourages us to mind our words and have a faithful witness when it comes to such a divisive topic, and she challenges us to broaden our perspective with empathy to the most vulnerable members of our communities.

Resources:

Follow Ashley Abercrombie on the web: 

https://www.ashabercrombie.org 

Order Ashley’s book Rise of the Truth Teller here

Check out Ashley’s podcast “Why Tho” here:

https://www.ashabercrombie.org/podcast 

Learn more about the history of the evangelical church:

https://www.npr.org/transcripts/731664197  

Follow Ashley on social media:

https://www.facebook.com/ashleyabercrombienyc 

https://www.instagram.com/ashabercrombie/ 

https://twitter.com/ashabercrombie

Full Transcript:

Eddie Rester 0:00
I'm Eddie Rester.

Chris McAlilly 0:01
I'm Chris McAlilly. Welcome to The Weight.

Eddie Rester 0:04
Today we have Ashley Abercrombie with us speaking about a weighty topic. Sometimes we have great conversations with guests, and we talked about some topics. But today, we really step into the deep end.

Chris McAlilly 0:17
Today we're talking about abortion. And we've intentionally reached out to Ashley. She has, I think, a very compelling and compassionate and nuanced perspective that you'll hear about right out of the gate. I think that, regardless of where you're coming from in the conversation, I think that you're going to find her just a delightful spirit and presence, someone who just gets it, not on the policy level, but on the personal level. But she's also thought through the range of questions surrounding what it means to be pro-life, which is her position, but also what it means to walk alongside vulnerable women in the midst of one of the most vulnerable and broken moments of their life.

Eddie Rester 1:10
She really offers a deeper perspective. And I think for those of you who might think "Well, I know exactly what I believe about this," I think her witness offers some different views that are significant, but also important.

Eddie Rester 1:26
A little bit about Ashley. She's a speaker and writer. She's written for a lot of magazines, including Oprah Magazine, Relevant, Grit, Virtue. She's written several books, "Rise of the Truth Teller," "Tell It Like It Is." She's also co-host of a podcast, Why, Tho with Tiffany Bluhm, who we had on the program a few weeks ago, so she impacts a lot of people with her writing and her speaking.

Chris McAlilly 1:54
Hope you enjoy it. Let us know what you think. Share it with folks that you feel like would benefit from the conversation. And if there are other topics that you think we should be engaging in, feel free to reach out, let us know.

Eddie Rester 2:06
[INTRO] Let's be honest, there are some topics that are too heavy for a 20 minute sermon. There are issues that need conversation, not just explanation.

Chris McAlilly 2:16
We believe that the church is called to engage in a way that honors the weightiness and importance of these topics for how we live faithfully today. We'll cover everything from art to mental health, social injustice to the future of the church.

Eddie Rester 2:27
If it's something that culture talks about, we need to be talking about it, too. [END INTRO]

Chris McAlilly 2:33
We're here today with Ashley Abercrombie. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.

Ashley Abercrombie 2:39
I'm so happy to be here with you guys. Thank you for having me.

Eddie Rester 2:42
Well, a few weeks ago, we had Tiffany Bluhm, who's your... Do we call it a podcast mate? Co-host? How do we say it?

Chris McAlilly 2:50
I don't think anybody says "podcast mate." That's not a thing, Eddie. That's, that's like the weirdest thing. It's co-host.

Eddie Rester 2:55
Co-host. That's what we call it.

Ashley Abercrombie 2:59
Yes, that's what we call it. If we were Australian, we would say "mate." [LAUGHTER]

Eddie Rester 3:08
Once again, I ruined the beginning of a podcast.

Ashley Abercrombie 3:13
Or made it better, however you want to look at it.

Chris McAlilly 3:14
We can only go up from here. [LAUGHTER]

Eddie Rester 3:18
Tell us a little bit about yourself. We were talking before we hit the record button that you grew up in North Carolina but now you've landed in Southern California. So just tell us a little about how you got there, what you do, what life is like for you.

Ashley Abercrombie 3:34
Yes, thanks for asking. So I was born and raised in a little, small southern town in North Carolina and loved it. And when I was 21 years old, I had just turned 21. And my life was completely falling apart in everything from dealing with addiction, abuse of alcohol, drugs, an eating disorder, a host of issues and problems and pain. And to be honest, when I first decided to move across the country to Los Angeles, it was to escape my life. I thought, like, "if I go away from all of this, then I don't have to deal with it. I don't have to look at it. I don't have to live up to anybody else's standards. I can just start all over."

Ashley Abercrombie 4:07
I got to LA. I learned that everywhere you go, there you are, unfortunately. You cannot escape yourself and you cannot escape your past. And so I was lucky enough to be in a faith community out in Los Angeles, pretty immediately. Met some amazing Christians who were the least judgmental, most loving humans I have ever known. And they went to church, but they never invited me to church and they just kept, you know, hanging out with me and going to dinners with me and inviting out for coffee. And as I got to know them, I was just like, "Can I come visit your church? I would love... I have never met Christians like you before. I would love to see what you're a part of, what makes you like this."

Ashley Abercrombie 4:45
And I ended up coming to their faith community and through that found the beginning of my recovery journey. So I'm 17 years sober. And we lived in LA. My husband and I met and married there. We had our first baby and then we spent a little stint in Manhattan the last four years, and then we just relocated during the quarantine year of our Lord back to Southern California. And now we have another son and a baby girl on the way. She'll be here in just a couple of weeks. So that's kind of my story. And what I do for a living is I write and speak for a living. And I've pastored for many years and been a prison chaplain been involved in anti-human trafficking work. I've done a whole host of things like most of us, who are alive in 2020. But yeah, that's my short story.

Eddie Rester 5:06
You have a real passion for justice, and for helping people find their place and understand their place. Where does that come from for you? What rose that passion up in you?

Ashley Abercrombie 5:46
Yeah. So you know, I was raised in a small Southern Baptist Church, and it was a beautiful faith community. I mean, I'm talking 50 people on a good day, and no one under the age of 70, except for me, and like two other kids. And my great-great-aunt who would take me to church on Sundays, we would do something every Sunday that in the Baptist community is called visiting the sick and the shut-ins. So that's just people who are too sick to leave the house or shut up in their house for a certain season, time, or period. And we would travel the neighborhood with, like, pimento cheese sandwiches and flowers and cookies, and we would sit with people. And she really taught me that my faith extends so much further than a Sunday. And she taught me what it meant to show up for people who couldn't do anything for me. And she really was great at practicing the ministry of presence. I think she really stirred that pot in me.

Ashley Abercrombie 6:34
And my mom as well. She's been an ER nurse my whole life for almost 35 years now. And I think that her sense of justice and her sense of right and wrong was so strong, and she really imparted that to us. So she saw something happening in the neighborhood, in a store, she'd be the first to intervene. If a child was being hurt, for example, or if somebody was speaking, you know, ill toward someone else, she'd be the first one to say something. And so I think that I just, I was lucky enough to be surrounded by some women with some real strong convictions, and that just continued to bloom in my life.

Ashley Abercrombie 7:08
And then I think, you know, we all have a story, right? We all have the past. We're all born into certain economics. We're all born into certain things that we can't help. And I think that also informs my passion for people and my passion for equality and equity, is dealing with addiction and growing up in poverty. Like, so many things have formed and shaped me and my desire to create a world that's more just and a world that is more equitable for people.

Eddie Rester 7:35
In a world where people can break free--in some of your writings and things that you really talk about breaking free from shame, whether it's the shame of addiction or sexual exploitation, that really comes through in what you write and when you speak.

Ashley Abercrombie 7:54
Thank you.

Eddie Rester 7:55
One of the topics--and our podcast The Weight, we always want to deal with some weighty issues. And one of the issues right now in the culture that I think's important for us to talk about as Christians is abortion. We've just been through a really brutal Supreme Court fight, putting a new justice on the Court. And a lot of that conversation has been around issues around abortion, it seems. Roe v. Wade is always in the conversation. I know one of the things that you speak about and talk about in a very nuanced way is the conversation for women around abortion. Can you kind of lead us into how, why that's an important conversation for you?

Ashley Abercrombie 8:45
Yes, well, first of all, before I do that, I just I would like to commend you, as two men in a faith community, to be even willing to number one, have this conversation and number two, kind of open up an avenue for a person like me to share that. I think this is brave space. And it's really rare. In fact, this is the first conversation I've ever had with men about this particular topic in this way. And so I just commend you, because it's a very rare thing to do.

Ashley Abercrombie 9:11
And I'm very passionate about this topic, because obviously, I'm a Christian. I have skin in the game when it comes to women and things that happen in our communities. And I'm also pro-life and I have had an abortion. And so I think those three things right there are already nuanced enough to people to make people kind of go, "Huh?" But it is a part of my story. You know, I had an abortion when I was 21 years old, right before I moved out to Los Angeles. And it was one of the most difficult things I have ever been through and one of the hardest things I've ever had to heal from. And while I recognize that's not every woman's story, it's most women's story.

Ashley Abercrombie 9:48
And one in four women have had an abortion, which in turn means that one in four men have had an abortion, and they're very often left out of the conversation altogether. We don't very often consider the father in this dialogue, or the father especially when we start talking about policy and criminalization and doing the different things that we... or find the different things that are happening in some of the states already, we're not talking about men in that dialogue. So the stigma and the shame of this issue really weighs very heavily on the female.

Ashley Abercrombie 10:19
And this has always been a hot-button topic in evangelical communities. And I was new and naive to that dialogue. I didn't grow up evangelical, and I didn't grow up in a family that told you how to think or how to vote. So I was actually in my mid-30s, early-to-mid-30s, before I realized, like, "Whoa, this is a whole... this is a whole thing for evangelicals." I didn't realize that it drove a lot of people's voting decisions, that it drove a lot of the way that they view civic engagement or policy, and sometimes with a real lack of understanding around what it means to be pro-life for a whole life and what it means to cultivate conditions that would allow abortion to be unnecessary for women.

Ashley Abercrombie 11:01
I mean, and we could talk about a ton of that stuff, everything from paid leave to affordable health care to, you know, being able to have women have time to heal after a birth, to be able to have access to education for themselves and for their children. I mean, there's a million ways we could go with this conversation. But I feel passionate about it, because I love women so much. And I've spent the last 10 years leading abortion recovery groups for women, and also for women who have had what's classified as an abortion but is actually a DNC, and that's when, you know, potentially, the baby has passed, and they have to make decisions about what to do so that the woman can remain safe, and can remain okay, and move and live through that space. So I've been leading those recovery groups for a long time. So I feel very familiar, not with just the policy part of it or the Christian rhetoric part of it, but very familiar with what it looks like up close in my own life and with other women who are going through this difficult issue of abortion. And I think it's a really important topic and has been for a very long time, and we need a better pro-life conversation. Period.

Chris McAlilly 12:03
With that in mind, I think it's worth kind of, you know, backing up a little bit and trying to kind of get a sense of how we got to this point a little bit, you know. How is it... I mean, I guess, if you're starting a conversation about how to have a better conversation about the church's engagement with the larger conversation in America around abortion and women's health... Where did that conversation really get off the ground? I mean, in some ways, Eddie and I've talked a little bit about this coming into the podcast. Things go back to Roe v. Wade, in the 70s. How did the church engage, I guess, trying to give people a framework to even begin thinking about the larger political and policy dimensions of the conversation for Christians.

Ashley Abercrombie 12:58
Yeah, so you know, it's a really interesting history. Because abortion really was, it began as a Catholic issue. And you know, I love the Catholics. One of my mentors is a nun who works here in Los Angeles, and she is an amazing, amazing person. And for a very long time, most of the evangelical Christian community considered abortion a Catholic issue. And they really thought the same as what RBG wrote, when she did this, they thought that abortion should be safe and legal and rare. And so when the 70s were happening, abortion was a big issue. You know, evangelicals decided to make this their main issue so they could begin to get evangelicals to vote a certain way. And that sounds like very strong language. There is so much data and stats to back this up.

Ashley Abercrombie 13:46
But basically, what happened is, the evangelicals elected Jimmy Carter. They were the main driving vote of Jimmy Carter becoming president. And he was a Sunday School teaching Democrat who believed in universal health care. And he was a bit more radical than I think people imagined. I think Christians were just very excited to have someone in the White House who, like, taught Bible study. It was an amazing thing for them. And I get that. That's really great. And at the same time, they realized he was much more progressive than perhaps they wanted.

Ashley Abercrombie 14:15
And then when schools began to integrate in the Civil Rights Movement, and they had Brown versus Board of Education, and then evangelicals began to create their own schools, so having private schools that did not integrate. And then there was all these court cases, because people were very upset that people were pulling books from their schools and starting their own schools. And so they began to have court cases. And eventually they lost many of them and had to integrate even their private schools, which was, you know... I mean, up to this day, so many of those private Christian schools have rules about what kind of hair African Americans can wear to school every day. So I mean, it's gone on for a very, very long time, this sort of segregation and policy policing. But that's how it started.

Ashley Abercrombie 14:56
And then they realized, okay, we're going to lose this Brown versus Board thing. So then how are we going to keep our sort of conservative values? How do we sort of keep segregation on the table without really keeping it on the table? And they began to use abortion as their main, like, swing issue. So people like Francis Schaeffer has now had, like, a full reform. And he thinks very differently about all these issues than he did at the time. I mean, he was going on the circuit with Jerry Falwell Sr., and they were talking about this issue, and just really raising up all these things.

Ashley Abercrombie 15:23
Then underneath President Reagan, they had a Surgeon General who began to talk about stages of birth and show pictures of women with babies. And for the first time ever, you know, that was kind of at the forefront, but not in a way that was honoring women or seeking to provide paid leave for them or helping them get beyond the minimum wage jobs are really helping women in poverty, poverty, but in a way that was sort of stimulating that idea of like, "birth is everything." A baby unborn is everything and at the expense and detriment to the mother, unfortunately. And so I think that was a really, that was the switch, that we really saw this become a driving issue for evangelicals.

Eddie Rester 16:00
There's a great podcast about some of the history of the Evangelical Church in America, and we'll put that in the show notes. And it has a lot of folks who were there during that time talking about kind of the decisions that were made and how they got made and how this became the issue. One of the things years ago, I was driving home and listening to a Christian interview, and there was a priest talking with his Protestant interviewer, and the priest told the interviewer, I'll never forget this, he said, "You're not really pro-life." The priest said, "You're pro baby. But if you're pro-life, then you'd also be against the death penalty." And he rambled on for a minute and then went to a commercial break. And when they came back on, the priest was no longer there as a part of the interview. And you speak a lot about the difference between being pro-birth and pro-life, being a whole life. Help us understand some of the nuance in that conversation.

Ashley Abercrombie 17:02
Yes, I'd love to because it's so important. I want to read a quote to you from Sister Joan Chittister. And she is also a nun and author and speaker. And she said, she talked about exactly what you're saying. She said, "I do not believe that, just because you're opposed to abortion, that that makes you pro-life. In fact, in many cases, your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born, but not a child fed, not a child educated, not a child housed. And why would I think that you don't? Because you don't want any tax money to go there. That's not pro-life, that's pro-birth. We need a much broader conversation of what the morality of pro-life is."

Ashley Abercrombie 17:36
And I love that, because I think that that is one of the most important things that we can understand. So when I think about pro-birth, I think about people who are, you know, very, very solid on the unborn, and me too. Like I want so desperately for abortion to not be an option for people. I really want people to not be in positions of poverty or domestic violence or making impossible medical decisions. I want that for people. And at the same time, I'm pro-mother, right alongside pro-birth. I care about that mom. I care about her problems and her pain, and her issues. And I believe that those things also matter to God, that He cares about those things.

Ashley Abercrombie 18:13
And when we look at like foster care systems and all the things that are happening in America, and what would we do, all these babies begin to be born that parents maybe can't take care of them or really having a hard time. We have more children in poverty. You know, 145 million people live in poverty in America. That's one-third of the people who live here live at or below the poverty line. So we have to have a stronger dialogue about the pro-life situation.

Ashley Abercrombie 18:37
I think about my first baby with insurance cost, you know, $500 total. And my second baby with insurance cost $28,000 total. And so I think about that, and like what? I mean, we couldn't afford that medical bill. We got it shrunk down to 10 grand, but we couldn't afford that either. So we have medical debt for the first time in our marriage. You know, we're trying to figure out how are we going to do this? How are we going to pay for these things? What's going to happen? And then you think about people who are living at the poverty line, receiving the same medical bills, or you think about people who are working as janitors in hospitals, or they are baristas at Starbucks, or they are working in an ice cream shop or whatever their job might be, but their pay is, you know, $7.25 an hour. And they're trying to figure out, like, no one's going to pay for their medical leave. Ben and Jerry's is not going to cover their medical leave. Well, actually, they might. They're pretty radical. Starbucks probably isn't going to pay for their medical leave, you know. The hospital janitor is not going to get her maternity leave covered.

Ashley Abercrombie 19:31
And so you think about things like that and you think about the cost of health care, and then it becomes a stronger conversation and that's not even saying anything about many of the other issues, whether it is what's happening at the border. And we can have many different disagreements, and that's a good thing. Disagreement is okay. And it's it's normal. Disagreements about what should happen around policy at the border. But at the same time, we just discovered that, you know, dozens and dozens of women were given forced hysterectomies at our border. Do we care about that? Do we care about her life? Does that matter to us? Because that means that we are pro-life as well. Do we care when families get separated? Do we care that a family gets split up because of poverty and not because they are with bad parents or a bad mom or dad?

Ashley Abercrombie 20:14
And so I think these are all the pro-life things we want to talk about. And I often have found in the evangelical Christian community, and it makes me sad, is that I've seen that a lot of people with a lot of resources and a lot of means and who have family to help them and who have, you know, great incomes, who own a home, who have cars, they're not taking public transportation, and they very often have the harshest judgments toward women who have abortions or who are facing that impossible decision. But they have everything they need to have a baby. What does it mean when you don't? And so that's what I think is important about this conversation.

Eddie Rester 20:52
I think about my daughters who are 19, and almost... 17. Don't tell her I forgot how old she was.

Chris McAlilly 21:00
I was. I'm sure she doesn't listen.

Eddie Rester 21:05
But think about if one of them became pregnant, you know, they've got me. They've got their mom, grandparents, they've got this web of support for them that a lot of women in poverty just absolutely do not have that web of support.

Chris McAlilly 21:23
I think for me, part of my way into this conversation is I'm an adoptive parent. And that's kind of the closest I've come to just the vulnerability, I think that's that's what I hear in your story is that there's not a woman who would desire an abortion. That's not a choice. It's not a life choice that if you're a 12-year-old girl that you think, "Yeah, one day I want to get pregnant and have an abortion." That for you to come up against the choice, that's horrific.

Ashley Abercrombie 21:55
Yep.

Chris McAlilly 21:56
That the only way that you can move forward with this pregnancy would be to not bring this child into the world and then raise it to adult flourishing, that's...

Ashley Abercrombie 22:09
Yeah.

Chris McAlilly 22:09
that's a kind of vulnerability that I think many, many people are not exposed to. And I think...

Ashley Abercrombie 22:16
Yes.

Chris McAlilly 22:19
so it's complicated. You know, it's complicated, because at the heart of these realities that we're talking about, there's a kind of brokenness and vulnerability, that you can't just squarely put on a single individual or even a single family or single couple. But there's just layers. And the more, I mean, the more you engage it, not just as an issue that can be dealt with quite simply and just kind of one dimensionally, you begin to realize that there are all these different dynamics at play. And that also that one kind of policy decision one way or the other is not going to stop abortions. It's not going to end that reality. But I think what I hear you trying to do is to raise our awareness to just the hurt of those who are most vulnerable within within our society.

Ashley Abercrombie 23:12
Yep. Yes, that is, that's it. And I really appreciate what you both just shared. And it's, that is it. I mean, I can remember being, you know, barely 21 years old, and, like, living way below the poverty line and in a very dysfunctional relationship with a person that I did not want to be with anymore or have any ties or connections to. I had no family that would be available to help me at the time. I did not have a faith community that I was a part of. I didn't even have real friendships. I was struggling with addiction. I mean, I was dealing with so much. And so all those layers were present when I made that difficult decision. And I think that that is very normal.

Ashley Abercrombie 23:53
And I have yet to meet a woman who has had an abortion who did it thoughtlessly or carelessly, and it was not pain free for her. It was difficult, and the recovery journey was long and arduous. And some women deal with this their whole life. And so I think it's important, what you guys have both just shared that there is this vulnerability to it. And I also think that some people try to put a face on abortion: that it looks a certain way, that it talks a certain way, that it has a certain color, it has a certain ideology, it has a certain, you know...

Ashley Abercrombie 24:29
We make women a caricature when we think about this issue, and that sort of helps us villainize and demonize other women who make these choices and their situations even. And I think when we really stop and go, "Wait a minute, 25% of people who have had an abortion are married." You know we start talking about, you know, that it's all races, all phases and the one through line that's carried through for women with this issue is actually poverty. It's not a race. It's not, you know, a state or a certain way of looking or being in the world. Poverty is one of the number one drivers of abortion. And so you're right. It's nuanced and hard and difficult. And that's what I want the evangelical community to do better is to have compassion alongside their conviction. I'm not upset that people have conviction about their pro-life, their participation in the movement. I'm upset that they lack compassion and they lack critical thinking. They lack the capacity to have a nuanced conversation. And that's really important in the world that we're living in.

Eddie Rester 25:30
So what does that compassion look like for believers who are pro-life? What does that compassion look like for the church that's living in this broken world? We know that in Mississippi, the number of women and children who live below the poverty line is higher than anywhere else in the United States. I'd have to look that up. But what does that compassion look like for us? Where do you see it?

Ashley Abercrombie 25:59
Yeah, so I love the word "compassion." And when you look at it in Scripture, and I don't speak Greek, so I can't say the word. But the essence of what compassion is, is to be moved from the gut to do something. And so that is very different than sympathy. That's very different than pity. That's very different than like, "Oh, those poor people, I should maybe help them." You know, compassion is always moved to action. And so this is your driving issue. You know, what can you really do to help? Are you helping a single parent with groceries? Are you becoming an adoptive parent? If that is a possibility for you. We know that's not possible for every person to be able to do that. But if it's possible, can you do it? You know, are you walking alongside young women? And are you looking at the issues holistically? Like, what would it look like to drive economics and to maybe certain parts of town that need a lift? What would it look like for people to not be in food deserts where they don't have access to a grocery store? Or even a bank? What would that look like for us to begin to think about our cities or communities differently? And what would it look like for us to be people who don't judge but people who are showing up and again, practicing that ministry of presence, like we're available in people's lives?

Ashley Abercrombie 27:07
If we know this young woman doesn't have a mother who can assist her, can I meet with her for coffee once a month, and just help her? You know, if I'm a mom, and she needs help, how can I show up for her? How can I be responsible for the people that are in my sphere of influence? And I think so often we think compassion is like feeling sorry for people. And sometimes you could even trick your brain into thinking you've done something because you're like, "I really care about this issue." But the reality is, you haven't done anything. You posted something on Facebook, and you just have this conviction. But what have you actually done? And Jesus is a man of conviction. Every time we see the word compassion, it talks about that. He was moved with compassion, so he healed them all. He was moved with compassion, so he healed the sick. You know, every single time we see that word with Jesus, he's acting, he's not just feeling. And so I think for us as Christians, we need to be moved to act.

Chris McAlilly 27:58
I think another

Ashley Abercrombie 27:58
And sometimes....

Chris McAlilly 27:59
Oh, sorry.

Ashley Abercrombie 27:59
Oh, go ahead.

Chris McAlilly 28:00
No, you were on a roll.

Ashley Abercrombie 28:01
No, no, please. Go for it.

Chris McAlilly 28:04
No, I think our our action at the enter button or the return button when you click to share something on social media, but also at the ballot box. I think that's one of the ways in which I think Christians have diminished their public witness is to think about what it looks like to engage from their convictions, whatever those convictions are, as simply casting a vote, you know, once every four years for president or once every couple of years for campaigns. And I think what you're describing is a different way of engaging. It's a more expansive idea of what it is for the church to engage in politics.

Chris McAlilly 28:10
The way I think about it, just, you know, how do you forge a common life with people who are the same and different, especially at these asymmetries of power, where there's inequality that's economic or social or political? It does feel like if you're going to embrace a pro-life conviction, and that's going to be a central component to how you think about being Christian in the world in 2020, that it would involve a more expansive engagement. And I think, you know, day in, day out, week in, week out on the local political level, because I do think that ... that's where it gets hard, you know, and difficult to know even where to begin. For me, it's hard to begin the conversation at the national level or at these large scale policy places when often the church can engage quite close to the ground in very concrete and practical ways and terms and that feels like maybe a better place to begin.

Ashley Abercrombie 29:59
Yes. And I think it's a more faithful witness to your point. It's like, you know, people would probably respect that public discourse, well, one if it wasn't so mean, and two, if people actually matched those loud convictions with the work they're doing, and it didn't... Like, most people think about Christians protesting at abortion clinics. They don't think about them on the ground, helping people. And even though I know many Christians who do, and that's why I said, I have so much respect for the Catholics, like my mentor here, who's a nun, and she runs a shelter for women. And about half the women in the home have been trafficked into the United States via labor trafficking, and the other half are women who are moving from emergency housing into permanent housing.

Ashley Abercrombie 30:41
And alongside that is this beautiful after school scenario, and a daycare center for women during the day. And when the women leave the home, they have free childcare for life, like, as long as they need childcare, they can always drop their kids off at the daycare for free.

Eddie Rester 30:57
That's incredible.

Ashley Abercrombie 30:57
It's incredible. And she to me, and she's pro-life and would do it with such compassion and love and grace. And, you know, when I think about a pro-life person, like, that's it. She, I've never seen her judge anyone. I've never seen her shouting, doing, you know, weird things on social media. She's just actively doing the work. And now not all of us are called to be nuns, right? So that can feel really overwhelming. It's like, "Well, good for your mentor, you know, but I'm over here trying to raise my kids and like, live my life." And so I understand that not all of us are called to that level of work or effort or energy. But I do believe that God will open your eyes in the sphere of influence that you're living in. And there is someone in your faith community, there is someone in your neighborhood, there's someone in your child's school, there is someone at your university, there is someone available, who needs your wisdom, who needs your help and needs your love.

Ashley Abercrombie 31:49
Like, if I could have had one conversation with a Christian in college. One. And I didn't. My experience was people judging me and inviting me to their, you know, FCA meetings to get saved instead of just like getting in my business and going, "Are you okay?" Like, "Why do you drink so much? Why are you partying all the time? Can I do anything and journey with you? Can I tell you about Jesus?" Like, nobody ever did that. And so I think, what would it look like, if each of us just grabbed a hold of the thing that's in front of us? It doesn't have to be somewhere big out there. You don't have to start some nonprofit. Like, there is a person right now who needs the wisdom you have, who needs the care that you have, who needs the energy and the resource that you have available. And we don't do it out of this sort of savior mentality. But we do it because we know: Jesus loves people. And also we have something to learn from them.

Ashley Abercrombie 32:40
All my friends who were in different places of life, different stages, we're in different economic brackets, we have maybe more differences than we do things that are alike, but I have learned so much. I have grown. I have become a better lover of humanity. I have seen the face of God in all these differences. And so I feel like if Christians would just do that, if you would just begin to love where you are, and not be so set on what you're against and so set on who your people are and who's right and who's wrong. Like that begins to change the faithful witness of the church, and we desperately need that in the times that we are living in.

Chris McAlilly 33:16
One of our friends who is a woman in ministry, we were kind of having a conversation through Message beforehand, about some of this. This is what she said. She said, "I fully believe that Jesus would be standing beside a hurting, vulnerable woman, a life standing and breathing before him, and would hold her hand and walk with her, not debate." And it just seems like that emphasis on the vulnerable human, the vulnerable human person, the vulnerable woman

Ashley Abercrombie 33:46
Yes.

Chris McAlilly 33:46
that's standing in front of you doesn't need a policy debate. But rather, what is it that the church can offer? Not only to her, but kind of, to, you know, to be a part of the support system that leads her in the direction of the kind of love and community that will be there basically come what may, you know, I think that i think that's because there's a I think that's another dimension of your work that you're that you're passionate about is coming, you know, coming alongside women who have experienced abortion and need reintegration back into into life and community. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Ashley Abercrombie 34:37
Yeah, so I think abortion is one of those things that can sit so deep in people and just it's something they were terrified to talk about. It's a decision they've made that doesn't feel good to them that is painful, and again, that's a broad stroke. I'm sure that there are some women who would say "No, that isn't my experience," and I do know that to be true as well. But with the women I worked at, that is their experience. And I think that releasing women from that level of shame and releasing women, you know, to own their own story, like, "This happened to me. This is a decision that I made. These were the circumstances. How do I move forward from this? How do I grow from this? How do I forgive myself for this?" Which was the hardest thing for me and certainly for a lot of other women. And then, "How do I become a part of a faith community? Will they accept me? Will they love me?" That's very often the conversation that women are having.

Ashley Abercrombie 35:30
Also, "If I was to tell people about this in my family, if I was to tell people about this in, you know, my faith community, would I still be accepted? Would they still love me?" And then that is devastating to me, that people are not even aware that the church is full of mercy. And I want that to be our public witness and our public testimony. It's not always. And so for me, I want to see women freed, regardless. You know, I want to see them freed up from the pain and the guilt of making a decision like that. And also to recognize the outside factors that could have been impacting a decision like that, what led them down that road, why they made those choices, so they can be fully healed and whole.

Ashley Abercrombie 36:09
And I also would say here that I would really love to see the church hold men accountable and for the church to do more in this area. You know, there's so many male pastors, right? Like, this is men leading men and, you know, discipleship moments and men's ministries. And you don't hear it. You don't hear it talked about. Men don't get held accountable around this issue the way that women do. And there's no stigma or shame attached to them, except what they might feel secretly and privately. Of course, I'm not saying that men don't experience shame, that would be crazy. Of course they do. But I really do wish that more men were held accountable for the decisions that they're also making. And I think that would take the brunt of the weight off of women. It would be shared in some kind of way. And I think that that would be very helpful for the church to begin to hold men accountable for their decisions around sex and sexuality and relationships and how they treat and view women, I think would be a wonderful thing for the church to do.

Eddie Rester 37:06
And to advocate for policies, even, that don't just go after women.

Ashley Abercrombie 37:13
Yes. Yes.

Eddie Rester 37:14
So often, when you see states passing laws around this, it penalizes women significantly, whether they're talking about well, we'll count it as murder, that woman murdered their child and yet, as you say, there's nothing in any of that for the man who obviously is involved as well.

Eddie Rester 37:40
A second ago, you were talking about the pain and the grief, and, you know, in my experience as a pastor, that extends even to women who, we were talking earlier, when the baby's health has been lost, and the DNC and they've lost a child that way. Just, there's so much about losing a child that in any way, shape, or form around this conversation, that there's just a lot of pain. And so often I see Christians and churches doing things that just drive the shame home a little bit more.

Ashley Abercrombie 38:17
Yes.

Eddie Rester 38:18
So that years later, they can't. The message is, "this defines you once and for all time." And the good news of the Gospel is that there's really not anything outside of Christ or Jesus that can define us once and for all time. Earlier, you talked about cultivating conditions, and I wrote that down. If you were, for one day, kind of the the queen of our nation, and you could cultivate conditions--you could set some things in place that you think would be necessary for women in a way that would make abortion maybe unnecessary for them. What are some things that you would want to be about?

Ashley Abercrombie 39:07
Oh, my gosh, what a massive question, and I don't know that I'll do it justice. But I do know that one of the first things I would do is talk about maternity leave and paid maternity leave and family leave, frankly. You know, I also married to a pastor. So I, you know, our first baby he had a week off of work. Our second baby, he had three days. Like, he's not a tired, exhausted dad, too, you know. So I think this idea of family leave is super important. And the US is so far behind other countries that are advanced.

Ashley Abercrombie 39:39
I mean, many countries offer women six months to 12 months maternity leave, and it's just included in their government packages. It's not even in the job that they hold. Like, that means that it doesn't matter what amount of money they're making, they know that they will have paid maternity leave for six to 12 months. But can you even imagine? I mean that in and of itself is a game changer. Not only does mom get her brain back, you know, and be able to have a little bit more ownership of her life and schedule having a newborn, but also think about how that could greatly reduce the potential for abuse, or the potential for harm, or the potential for self harm or addiction for the mother, if she actually had space to not worry about finances, not worry about housing, not worry about health care.

Ashley Abercrombie 40:22
And so, that's where I would start, would be that. And then I think this issue of affordable housing. You know, we haven't raised the minimum wage since 2007, which actually wasn't implemented until 2009. But it's 7 dollars and 25 cents, still, with some exceptions, and some local governments, when they were able to raise a minimum wage. I think about that. The cost of housing has gone up 50% since that time. The cost of housing has gone up 50%, but our incomes have not been raised for people who are working. Not to mention you go into, you know, not having equal pay for women. So many women do not make the same amount of money as their male counterparts. And of course, race plays into this as well. So I think there just needs to be a level of equality, around work, around housing, around health care, and around family paid leave. That's where I would start, and I think those four big rocks would go a very, very long way in cultivating the conditions that make abortion unnecessary. And that would be a game changer. Like, to think of that makes me so excited, I could burst, that that could even be a possibility for women and their families, that they have them. Holy cow! I just can't even imagine the difference in our society.

Eddie Rester 41:34
To take away the stress of, "I've got to get back to work. I've got to work."

Ashley Abercrombie 41:37
Yes! Totally. And I feel that, too. I've had to do that with all of my pregnancies. So I, I understand that. And I'm much more privileged than a lot of women. And I don't have a minimum-wage job and haven't had one for a long time, but I also didn't go above the poverty line till I was 27 years old. So I know poverty very intimately and well. And I think that, you know, this would be so awesome for women to just take a load off and be able to raise their babies, regardless of their economic situations or their class or place in society.

Chris McAlilly 42:11
If there was a person or or small group or a church that wanted a place to start, where would you point them if they wanted to engage some of this work a little bit more fully?

Ashley Abercrombie 42:26
Hmm. Well, I do think looking into recovery programs would be a really big deal, just as a baseline, offering recovery for women who are recovering from abortion I think would be huge. And every community, every faith community I've been a part of that has offered that has really made a way for women. I also think, you know, things like food pantries. I mean, as silly as it sounds, like, I remember our church, we started a food pantry, my old faith community in LA. Because we had so many single parents in our neighborhood, and so many single parents in our church, and gosh, I mean, we fed them every week, you know, like, just one more way they didn't have to think about covering hundreds of dollars worth of costs. They could just come and grab groceries and go home.

Ashley Abercrombie 43:08
So I think meeting practical needs is very helpful, diapers even, and wipes and you think about things that are not covered on government benefits. Like you can't buy toilet paper. You can't buy paper towels. You can't buy diapers. So even people who have EBT cards or who are receiving government assistance, there's still so much that is not covered. And they need help. So thinking of what are those practical ways to do it.

Ashley Abercrombie 43:13
And then I think also providing family support is really huge as well. Teaching people how to parent, right? Giving people practical tools, helping them understand what it means, like, what are the developmental stages of children? What does this look like? You know, because many people just think they're crazy, the things they're dealing with, the whole, they don't have any idea that what's normal, what's not normal. And I think that churches can do a lot with that pastoral support. And to what you shared earlier, just about the grace that we have in Jesus and that we can be free and our past doesn't have to keep impacting our present. Like, it is possible for us to overcome those hurdles that lead to addiction or lead to control or lead to pain or lead to pride, like we the church are supposed to be equipping people and helping them recover and become more like Christ. And I think that that is the most helpful thing the church can do is to disciple people and meet practical needs.

Eddie Rester 44:26
We're almost at the end of our time. This has been an amazing conversation. I want to thank you. Before we go, is there anything else that you just want to share on this issue, this topic, just to make sure that maybe it's emphasizing something that you said earlier for folks who are listening?

Ashley Abercrombie 44:44
Yeah, I think the one thing I would just want to say is just encourage you to mind your words and have a faithful witness. You know, think about what you say before you say it. Think about that there might be a woman in your family who has had an abortion. Think about there might be a woman on Facebook reading this who's going to receive your shame. And mind your words, and have a faithful witness. If you are passionate about something, let that be further on display for people through your actions, through the things that you're doing, through the way that you're loving, and let the compassion of Christ lead you, and not just the rhetoric that you might know or have inherited.

Eddie Rester 45:26
Thank you for your time today. It's been great to have you. Great to have you on the show today.

Ashley Abercrombie 45:31
It has been my honor and privilege. Thank you so much for tackling such a difficult conversation. I'm really appreciative of what you're doing.

Chris McAlilly 45:38
The thing that I liked about it was that there were a couple times in there, you start preaching a little bit.

Eddie Rester 45:43
That's right.

Chris McAlilly 45:44
I feel like you... I feel like I look forward to engaging the podcast a little bit more and hearing you get on a roll.

Eddie Rester 45:53
Yeah.

Ashley Abercrombie 45:54
Thank you guys.

Eddie Rester 45:57
Have a great day.

Eddie Rester 45:58
[OUTRO] Thank you for listening today. Go ahead and follow us on Facebook and Twitter. And go ahead and hit the subscribe button on whatever platform you use to listen to podcasts.

Chris McAlilly 46:09
This wouldn't be possible without our partner, General Board of Higher Education and Ministry. We want to thank also our producer, Cody Hickman. Follow us next week. We'll be back with another episode of The Weight. [END OUTRO]