“Fresh Air” with Jack Levison

Show Notes:

This episode might leave you fired up for the Holy Spirit, because guest Jack Levison himself is fired up for the Holy Spirit. Not only does he see the boundless work of the Spirit in our world today, he also offers ways for us to dig deeper into finding the Spirit at work in the Old Testament, where we might overlook it.

Dr. Levison holds the W. J. A. Power Chair of Old Testament Interpretation and Biblical Hebrew at Perkins School of Theology, Southern Methodist University. He is the author of several books, including Fresh Air and A Boundless God, which won a Christianity Today book award in 2021. 

Resources:

Buy Dr. Levison’s books, including Fresh Air and A Boundless God here.

Find interviews and other podcasts featuring Dr. Levison here.

Transcript:

Eddie Rester 00:00
I'm Chris McAlilly. And I'm Eddie Rester.

Chris McAlilly 00:02 Welcome to The Weight.

Eddie Rester 00:04
Today our guest is Dr. Jack Levison. He is the J.A... W. J. A. Power Chair of Old Testament Interpretation in Biblical Hebrew at Perkins School of Theology at SMU.

Chris McAlilly 00:16
He knows how to read the Bible, and he knows how to read it in the original language.

Eddie Rester 00:19

In the original language. And he would tell you, you should learn that as well. I won't tell him what I, that I didn't take Hebrew. But he was a professor when I was at Duke, and he came in after my first year, I think. And so I never had a chance to take any of his classes. But students loved how he engaged them and how he taught, and he's talking about the Holy Spirit today, a book that he's written about the Holy Spirit called "Fresh Air." It's a great, think, a great resource for us. But you hear his excitement about Scripture and the Spirit and the church and Jesus all in what he shares today.

Chris McAlilly 00:56

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, there's certain people that you come across that you know they believe in God. You know, some people talk about God a lot, but there's some people that you have a sense that this is a person that really believes that God is active and at work in the world. And so you get to kind of pick up on that. You kind of catch a bit of his enthusiasm in the conversation. And there'll be some things in the conversation related to the work of the Holy Spirit that maybe you haven't thought about before. He is, he's very deeply a textualist in terms of, he's doing deep word studies. This is like deep Bible study stuff.

Eddie Rester 01:36 Yes.

Chris McAlilly 01:36

But out of it comes a vision of how God is at work in the world that might transform the way that you see other people, see the work of God beyond the church. And it may, you know, help you to kind of reconceptualize some things.

Eddie Rester 01:53

Rethink about maybe how the Holy Spirit is at work in your life already, even if you're not sure of that, or it's been a long time since you've maybe felt that or thought about that. One of his writings, he talks about, you know, this is for Methodists, it's the provenient grace piece of it, that the Spirit is at work in us, even when we don't know that the Spirit's at work in us. And so, just a fun and deep and engaging conversation. I'm thankful for him. I'm thankful for his book "Fresh Air," as well.

Chris McAlilly 02:24

Yeah, I hope that you enjoy the conversation, and we'll see you next time on The Weight. [INTRO] The truth is, the world is growing more angry, more bitter, and more cynical. People don't trust one another, and we feel disconnected.

Eddie Rester 02:40

The way forward is not more tribalism. It's more curiosity that challenges what we believe, how we live, and how we treat one another. It's more conversation that inspires wisdom, healing, and hope.

Chris McAlilly 02:52

So we launched The Weight podcast as a space to cultivate sacred conversations with a wide range of voices at the intersection of culture and theology, art and technology, science and mental health, and we want you to be a part of it.

Eddie Rester 03:08

Join us each week for the next conversation on The Weight. [END INTRO] Well today with Dr Jack Levison from SMU Perkins School of Theology. Jack, thanks for spending some time with us today.

Jack Levison 03:24
Oh, my pleasure completely.

Eddie Rester 03:26

So this book, "Fresh Air," you wrote this about the Holy Spirit, and when I was looking at it, beginning to read my way through it, all that I could think of at first was Dr. Levison is an Old Testament professor. I knew you for my days at Duke a long, long time ago, and you don't often think of Old Testament professors writing about the Holy Spirit. And that's a mistake, I know. But what drew your interest to really write this unique and deep, thoughtful book about the Holy Spirit?

Jack Levison 04:00

Well, back in 19--even before Duke days--back in 1992 I was in a summer seminar with Louis Feldman at Yeshiva University in New York City. And I had been interested in the Holy Spirit, but I grew up in a tradition that didn't value anything about it, so I wrote a very arcane, esoteric paper on the Liber Antiquitatum Biblicarum, of this ancient Jewish text. And I then ended up spending about five years writing on the Holy Spirit in the world of Jesus. And most people think that the Holy Spirit came with Jesus. Or push it back, came with John the Baptist. Or push it forward, came with Pentecost. But few people would say that people in the world of Jesus had a robust life in the Spirit, and I actually began to explore that. And so that's the world of Judaism, what people call the intertestamental world. And then my next step was to go back and say, wait a second. What happened before the world of Judaism in the Old Testament? And I just took out my Concordance and began to look at references to Ruach, the Hebrew word, Spirit. And the 17th Word led me to Ruach, Elohim, Spirit of God, wind of God. And I was off and running.

Chris McAlilly 04:53

So in the Old Testament, for folks that maybe haven't read it in a while or maybe have very little familiarity with it, just kind of maybe take us through some of the high moments. I think of creation as being a high moment. I think of the Spirit descending on the craftsmen at the creation of the temple as being a high moment. But what would be some that you would lift up for folks who may be new to the conversation?

Jack Levison 05:50

That's a great question. I um, I would start with the word Ruach. So in the Hebrew Bible, in the Old Testament, this word Ruach occurs 400 times. That's as many times as it occurs in the New Testament, really, 389. And if you look at this word, Ruach, in English, it gets translated in different ways. So sometimes it's "wind." Sometimes it's "breath." Sometimes it's "spirit." So you can only really get back at Ruach by looking at the Hebrew. It's my plug for Hebrew. And so it occurs, of course, at creation, where this Ruach Elohim, this Spirit, Wind of God, hovers over the creation, preparing order to come out of chaos. And you could do all sorts of things with that. You think about the chaos of our world, the chaos of our lives, and how is it that the Spirit of God can hover over this world and create order out of it? Another example, which is a beautiful example, is in Exodus 28 and the crafts men and women who developed the tabernacle or the temple, this portable space for God in the wilderness. If you read that in English, you're not going to find the word "spirit" in Exodus 28. They translate it as "skill," but it's really the Hebrew "spirit of wisdom" that allows these wonderful craftspeople to create this mobile flash and flood of color in the middle of the desert. That would be your...

Eddie Rester 07:29

Why do you think it gets hidden in the Old Testament like that? Why do you think, as people translated from the original Hebrew to English, we don't get that broader look or that broader sense of the movement of the Spirit in the Old Testament?

Jack Levison 07:45

Yeah. I mean, if you look at the New Revised Standard Version, they don't translate Ruach Elohim in Genesis 1 as Spirit of God. They translate it as Wind of God, or Wind from God. And so you wouldn't know to look there. Exodus 28, it gets translated almost entirely as skill, "skilled craftsmen," but it's actually "people filled with Spirit of wisdom." And so I think the translators, in trying to use context to determine what a word means, often obscure the presence of the Spirit of God in those texts. But I... Okay. So I was just really noticing this again the other day, the New Revised Standard Version, you know, the Bible of Methodist and Presbyterian, and everything.

Eddie Rester 08:32 I own multiples, yes.

Jack Levison 08:33

Yes, we own multiple New Revised Standard versions. When they come across the word Ruach and translate it as Spirit in the Old Testament, they never capitalize it. When they come across the word Pneuma in the New, they always capitalize it. What are they saying? I mean, they're the word Pneuma in the New, they always capitalize it. What are they saying? I mean, they're being, to use your, you know, a term marcionite. They're basically saying, well, the real Spirit of the Trinity, or the Spirit of God or the Spirit as a person, isn't there in the Old Testament, so we won't capitalize it. In the New Testament, we'll capitalize it. So blame the translators, to some extent, for the fact that they obscure, time and again, the presence of God's powerful life giving, personal Ruach among the Israelites.

Chris McAlilly 09:24
I wonder when, what year, do you recall the year that the NRSV came into being? What was...

Jack Levison 09:32
The Revised Standard was, like, in the 40s, wasn't it?

Eddie Rester 09:35 40s, early, yeah.

Chris McAlilly 09:35 That seems right.

Jack Levison 09:37
And then the New Revised Standard, I don't know.

Chris McAlilly 09:40 Yeah.

Jack Levison 09:40
I actually don't know, yeah.

Chris McAlilly 09:41
This says, all right, I'm looking it up.

Jack Levison 09:42

Chris McAlilly 09:43

Yeah, I'm looking it up. It says 1989. So that makes sense. I think one of the things that's happened since 1989 so for folks that don't know the history of 20th century global Christianity, one of the major markers within that conversation was Vatican II, and it was the Second Vatican Council. You have the Catholic Church inviting in the Protestants for really a kind of a, you know, going back to the roots and the sources of liturgical texts and theology with an interest in kind of broadening the conversation beyond just the Catholic world to the Protestant world. But also, you know what happens in that council is the mass is rewritten, not just in Latin. It's written in the vernacular, so that it really is an evangelistic move to try to expand the reach of the Catholic Church. And you know, the Church as a unified body around the world proclaiming the gospel of Jesus. And then over the course of the next, you know, 20 years or so, it was kind of the fallout of that, this real desire for unity. And so you have, you know, the New Revised Standard Version Bible. You have a number of worship books that come out of that. One of the things that was a kind of slower burn theologically, in seminaries and in other kind of academic conversations, was kind of a reawakening of this idea that God is not just Father or Son, but God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There's a Trinitarian really revival going on. And this is kind of dovetailing with Pentecostalism being really a global movement where the Spirit is kind of the person of God--God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--that is really animating a revival around the world. Or kind of, there's a real growth in the global south related to it. And at the same time, you're seeing these denominations in America kind of declining. And so, you know, it's very interesting that in 1989 they're doing the New Revised Standard Version, and at that point, they're not reading the Spirit in the Old Testament in a Trinitarian fashion, and maybe even, you know, capitalizing the word Spirit, when it arises. But I wonder. I wonder if... I don't know the Bible translations that have been done more recently. I think about the Common English Bible that was done by the United Methodist Publishing House in the last few years. I would be interested to know if that book capitalizes the Spirit in the Old Testament or not. But I think your point is well taken. That you know, for folks that are just reading the Bible, it's important to know that it was written in Hebrew and Greek, and it's translated, and translators bring with them certain...

Eddie Rester 12:41 They make decisions.

Chris McAlilly 12:42

They make decisions. They make certain interpretive decisions, even in the translation into English. And so, yeah, I mean, I guess what is lost or what is maybe, the question would be, what is gained if you capitalize Ruach as it's translated in the Old Testament? If you were to translate that, and that was kind of the consistent way of thinking about the Spirit throughout the Old and New Testament, what changes for us?

Jack Levison 13:11

Seventies?

Jack Levison 13:11

That is a very big question. First of all, the recognition that the Holy Spirit existed and was active before Christianity. It takes away all that triumphalism of Christianity. So I wrote a book called "The Holy Spirit before Christianity," and I argued that the Spirit was understood as a person 500 years before Jesus stepped foot on the earth. So I think it takes away Christian triumphalism. The other thing it does, which I think the New Testament doesn't quite do, is it brings the resonance of thisSspirit alive. So let me give you an example. In Ezekiel 37, that's the vision of the valley of very many dry bones. The Hebrew word Ruach occurs 10 times in that vision. The translators translated as Spirit with a capital S. They translate it as winds, and they translate it as breath. They have to, because English doesn't have such a broad shouldered word as Ruach. And when you dig into the Old Testament, you begin to see the Spirit, not as Spirit, wind, or breath, but you begin to use hyphenated ways of understanding the spirit. There is Spirit-wind, so that the natural world, all of a sudden is the place of the Spirit. There is Spirit-breath. Job talks about the breath in me, the Ruach in my nostrils, drawing a connection between Spirit and breath. Breathing becomes a spiritual or a sacred act. So the winds are seen as sacred, the breath is seen as sacred. So you can no longer have a dichotomy between spiritual and material, between piety and paganism, because the Spirit is so all- encompassing in the Old Testament that it is now Spirit-breath, Spirit-wind, and all of life becomes sacred. And that's not quite as apparent in the use of Pneuma in the New Testament. So I think you gain a lot.

Eddie Rester 15:27

You say early in the book that "the Holy Spirit is God's mystical, practical, expansive, unbridled presence in the world," and this is where I'm connecting to what you just said, "where we least expect it. In every breath we take, in social transformation, in community, in hostile situations and in serious learning." So what you are pushing us hard towards is, don't think the Spirit is just the gift of a few Christians over here on the corners of Christianity, or it's not just the gift to Christians who finally figured Jesus and God out. The Spirit is what guides us and lives with us and really breathes into us every single day, whether or not we feel... Whether or not we feel it or not.

Jack Levison 16:17

That's exactly right. What you get in the Old Testament is that someone like Joseph had the Spirit lifelong. The book of Daniel, he has the Spirit for three generations of rulers. This is not, like, something he got when he was 16, when he was confirmed or baptized or something. This is something that was in from the beginning. And so in chapter two of "Fresh Air," or is it chapter one? Chapter two, I have, it's called "Daniel's discipline." And I start with the story of Jeremy, our son, who's now 28. He was about 10 years old, and he was sick, and we were swinging on a hammock together in the Seattle sun, as he was dealing with his fever. And he said to me, he looked up at me with his blue eyes, and he said, "Dad, why are Christians so mean and non Christians so nice?" Ten year old, unvarnished, you know, no filter over his mouth. That was his experience of Christianity. And I had to begin to say that's because Christians often care about the bells and whistles. Do I speak in tongues? Does this happen? You know, will I be able to prophesy? What will happen to the Spirit? Will it help me worship? When, in fact, the baseline is that the Spirit is in all of us, as Spirit-breath. And many Christians, while they receive the Spirit and may even speak in tongues, are not as attentive to the daily Spirit-breath that's in each of us that we can cultivate into a life of kindness and virtue.

Eddie Rester 17:48
How do we begin to do that? How do we begin to cultivate the work of the Spirit in us? And well, talk about how this book, "Fresh Air," invites us into that.

Jack Levison 18:03

Well, at the end of this chapter, I say, here's what I really wish I'd have told Jeremy, and I give four things. And the first is, like Daniel, eat your veggies. So we need to live more simply. I think we've complicated our lives. We've put so much priority on this, on our children's being able to be in athletics and sports, in high academic achievement, oh my gosh, we're exhausting them. And you know, you can read, again, our children are exhausted. They're anxious. They're worried. And now I read an article about parents feeling exactly the same way. So is there a way to simplify and to eat our veggies? And then I would tell Jeremy something else. Number three, don't do a thing. In the book of Daniel, the Spirit is not associated with a verb in Hebrew or Aramaic. There's no verb. The Spirit isn't even is, the Spirit just. And so learn to live with a Spirit that's not helping us always to do something more. What was the second thing I said? I would tell Jeremy this: live for the long haul. Stop seeing the Spirit as spurts of inspiration. Stop seeing as, "oh, I wish I experienced the Spirit," which means, "I wish I felt good about life." The Spirit is there when you don't feel good about life. The Spirit is there in the long haul. And then the fourth one was, let non-Christians tell us whether we're leading spiritual lives, because in the book of Daniel, it's all non Jewish people who tell them. So you know, eat your veggies. Live for the long haul. Don't seek the quick little bells and whistles. What was the third one? Eat your veggies. Live for the long haul... Can't even remember my own book. Don't do a thing, and let others tell us how we're doing. I think simplify. Simplify, breathe. Simplify. Read Scripture. Just simplify.

Eddie Rester 20:04

When you when you talk about how to read this book. "Fresh Air," you talk about that. Bring your Bible, breathe, and write. I think those are the three things you say as you read this book, allow that Spirit to speak to you. So bring your Bible to read along with the Scriptures, breathe, and then write. And one of the things I'm thinking about, as you talk about how there's the Spirit is not associated with active verbs in Daniel, is how many times we're told, particularly in the Old Testament, be still. Be still, and know. There seems to be an invitation in a lot of Scripture just to be still and wait. I was going to stretch, but Chris is looking at me funny, so...

Chris McAlilly 20:52

No, that's all good. I just, you know, I'm reminded of recently, I went to a... There's a woman in our church who does a yoga class that's for, that's inspired by the recovery community. And so the first half of the class is it's kind of an open meeting in the tradition of Alcoholics Anonymous, and the second half of the meeting is more like a very simple yoga class. I can't do very complex yoga, but I can do very simple yoga. And so one of the practices, you know, the teacher is very good, someone that is friends of ours, and it is an excellent class. We were very open, and it was clearly very, you know, warm and inviting environment. But each person at an opportunity to share what was going on. And after each person shared there was, one of the members of the group was encouraged to invite the group to take a collective breath, and it was root, ground, and just show our recognition to the person who had spoken. I'd never been asked to do that, to breathe collectively with a group in that fashion. I found it incredibly moving, the way in which our collective breath did root us and ground us and draw us closer to one another as a group. These are complete strangers. And I've never, yeah, I've never been back, but that was profoundly moved by the practice. And I think I take your point, Jack, that if you don't grow up in a tradition that has a sensitivity to the Spirit's action, that perhaps the first time you encounter some of these environments, or encounter the Spirit's work beyond your tribe, it can be disorienting. You know, it can feel a little woo-woo, or something. And I think, you know, kind of fighting through that and kind of just staying. I think the thing that I would say is just staying open to the possibility that God's Spirit may want to offer something to you that you might need. I feel like, for me, that particular day I needed that. I don't know. Where are some of the places where you've experienced that beyond your tribe? You know, certainly you're helping us see it in scripture. But I wonder, what are some of your experiences of the Spirit's work in the world now that you have this lens, this biblical lens, that you're you're helping us to see?

Jack Levison 23:33

Well, the first example I would give would be for my very first job at St Paul School of Theology, a little Methodist Seminary in Kansas City, and I'd finally got to the point where I could teach. I was Professor of New Testament at that point, or assistant professor, and I wanted to teach a course on the Holy Spirit in the letters of Paul, but I knew I knew nothing apart from a few academic books. So I went and got a pastor from the area who was at Broadway Baptist Church, which was actually kind of a third wave, vineyard movement type of church. A lot of prophecy, an orchestra, raising of hands, that kind of thing. And Paul taught the class with me. And at the end of class, it wasn't a big class, maybe three or four students would gather and we would lay hands on each other, and we would listen for each other, maybe for five or 10 minutes. And then if we felt we couldn't sit on what we were seeing or hearing any longer, we would share that in a group. And then we'd share that. And one of the things, someone shared an image of this person in one of those big cement culverts that go under a road. And they said, "I don't know why I'm having this image of you, but this is the image that keeps coming to me in prayer." And the person said, "That was the only place I could go to be safe when I was child." And so we had this amazing experience of laying hands on each other, and listening on behalf of each other, and then we'd afterwards try to discern whether those were legitimate hearings and images. So I think it's really hard, especially for United Methodists, to think about spending 10 minutes listening with your hands laid upon someone else for an image or a word that God might have for that person. I mean, I've not been able to duplicate that. I did at Duke, Eddie, you know, when you were there, I met with a few guys, and we prayed very seriously for each other. The other experience, I would say, in the Holy Spirit... So that was an image of three or four people gathered deeply in prayer, listening to God. But I would say the other image is this. And I'll start, I don't want to go on too long, but I'll...

Eddie Rester 25:51 No, this is good.

Jack Levison 25:51

Okay. Well, I'll start here, that a few years back, the opportunity arose to become what's called Faculty in Residence in Boaz Commons, a residential hall, a dorm at SMU, and I really wanted to do it. And Priscilla was much more cautious. She is much more cautious than I am. I'm a jump in the pool and I say, "Oh, it's cold." She dips her toe in and say, "It's too cold. Let's not do that." So she spent one afternoon--and this is a big deal. You have to move into an apartment. We sold our town home, kept a little place out in East Texas, but she was out on the deck there, and she said, "I'm going to go into silence now." And for about four hours, I watched her eyes turn inward. Her movements were gentle and soft. She was deeply in prayer, looking inward even. And when she got done about four hours later, I did not interrupt her once, she said, "Let's do this. Let's go." I think that was very much a work of the Holy Spirit, in silence, in breathing. But then the third one would be, we spend a lot of time with students who are marginally Christian or not Christian, and the Holy Spirit is so at work on the edges. And if it's really United Methodists listening to this, get out on the edge. Go with Philip to a wilderness road and find someone unfamiliar, and jump into a chariot, because Priscilla and I have this amazing opportunity to be with students who are Christian and not. We do a thing in Lent called Lattes in Lent, and it's billed for students of faith, of no faith, of any faith, and they come into our apartment and we feed them something, and then we let them talk. And so I think being on the edge. So those are three examples in a small group, deeply praying and listening on behalf of another; Priscilla, when she went into a deep silence, almost a trance, listening for guidance; and then, thirdly, living on the edge. Live on the edge, Methodists. Live on the edge, Presbyterians. Live on the edge, Catholics. Live on the edge, Episcopalians. Come on, get out there. If we believe in a resurrected Jesus, we've got something to share. Get out on the edge.

Chris McAlilly 28:10

Yeah, I'm sorry to interrupt you, Eddie. I feel there was a conversation we had a few years ago, or a couple of years ago now, with Greg Jones, who was the Dean at Duke Divinity School and now is at Belmont University. I'm reminded he was saying, you know, oftentimes Christians, there's a lot of infighting. He said, really, you have two tests: do you believe in the resurrection of Jesus, and you believe in the Pentecostal power of the Spirit? And if you believe those things, then, you know, there's a lot of power there. There's a lot of hope there. And you ought to feel kind of freed up. And I think so that's one thing that comes to mind. The other is just this sense of... I was talking to a guy who's in a reformed Bible Church, who is very interested in the work of the Spirit, into deep work of prayer, contemplation. And he wants to make sure, you know, he's a bit concerned about, kind of, doesn't know the territory. I don't really know the territory that well, either. And so we're having this conversation about deep, contemplative, mystical prayer and Pentecostal, kind of, caught-up-in-the-Spirit style prayer, both of which we're interested in learning more about. And, you know, I think what I hear you saying is, don't be afraid. Keep pushing into that territory. And you know, God is there. And so I appreciate the encouragement.

Eddie Rester 29:47

Let me ask this, what's the goal of the Holy Spirit? What is it that the Holy Spirit is at work doing in the world? We can talk about what it's doing between us at times, or how it leads us at times. What, if someone, if you were talking to somebody about the Holy Spirit, one of those students who is of no faith or of little faith, what's the Spirit about? What's it leading towards, or what's it drawing us toward?

Jack Levison 30:16

I actually could answer that fairly straightforwardly, but it's like a hyperlink. It could lead me into seven or eight hours on this, but I will answer it straightforwardly. And I'm absolutely right about this. People, I'm right about this.

Eddie Rester 30:30
I like this. I like the certainty.

Jack Levison 30:32

This is not my opinion about most everything. This is right. In the New Testament, in the Bible, in early Christianity, the work of the Holy Spirit was seen primarily, principally as the insight that helps us to understand Jesus better. Everything is geared, not to the future, so much as to understanding Jesus. And I can unpack this, like the Gospel of John, where the Spirit says, where they say, the Spirit, the Paraclete, will lead you into all truth. And people say, well, wow, you know, but it doesn't lead us into chemical truth. It doesn't lead us into biological truth. The Spirit leads us into what truth? The truth of the life and death of Jesus. And you see this worked out in the Gospel of John. So the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, a fuller understanding of Jesus, more appreciation for the Jesus who walked on this earth. We should be memorizing Matthew's Gospel. It's made to be memorized. If you can remember, back to seminary. It's got five books, right? You know, five to seven, you know. And it goes on and at each ends with, "And when Jesus had finished." It's a memorizable book. And then, in the Great Commission, what does it say? It says, "teach them to do all that I have commanded you." Not three things I commanded you, or what you learned in discipleship Bible study, that's good, but "everything I commanded you." Our whole life should be spent with an obsession about understanding the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus better. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. And in the New Testament, that's always done in light of the Old Testament. But we won't go there. We should do a whole different podcast on that right there. But I'm thinking about when... I'm glad you didn't stop with, "we should do a whole different podcast." Thank you for that. "Let's forget this. Throw this one away."

Eddie Rester 32:32

When you talk about the Spirit in Jesus in the Gospel of John, I think about the Last Supper, when Jesus finally looks around at all these men who are at the table with him, and he finally says, "I didn't have a chance to teach everything."

Jack Levison 32:37 That's exactly the point.

Eddie Rester 32:48

"I didn't have the chance, but the Holy Spirit..." I mean, so every time I run into a Christian who thinks it's all done, every teaching of Jesus is done. I'm like, I'm not sure you've read the Gospel of John. You haven't read that moment, that long stretch of writing in the Gospel of John, of the Last Supper, and what Jesus prays, what Jesus' hope for in the Holy Spirit is for the Church and for Christians and for the larger world. It's this magnificent moment, I think, for the disciples, because they're already starting to grieve. They've realized what's going to happen, what they're losing. But Jesus says it's not over. You're going to continue to get to learn of me and see me, even though I haven't taught you everything, so...

Chris McAlilly 33:41

But I do think that that's the difference between what happens after the Gospel of John and Pentecost and what happens before. You know, there is a sense--and I do think you're right to help us kind of broaden our understanding of the Spirit's work, both before Christ. But then after Christ, what I hear you saying is that the work of the Spirit is to clarify all that is beautiful, good, and true of God and of our world, or what it means to be human. And what that's going to do is reveal Jesus. You know, it's going to continue. It doesn't... You don't get beyond Jesus. It's almost like in the way that you don't ever get beyond beginning when you're swimming. You're always a beginner if you're swimming. And it's the same here that, you know, we find ourselves in these moments. I mean, I think right now, a lot of people would say, you know, in the last 75 years since the Second World War, we've had a particular kind of world order that feels shaken at the moment. You know, we've had these rafts, what Ann Snyder calls this raft of institutions that are built to protect peace and human dignity that followed the war, and now we're disillusioned, and we're unsure of what the character of the next era might look like. And so people are grasping for, like, what's the moral order and what's the political order, and like, what's the economic and social order going to look like? And I think the the word I've been kind of grappling with, you know, what does it mean for the church to offer a moral vision for the future? And what I hear you saying, and what I'm kind of discerning in this conversation, is that the Spirit would say it's Jesus. You know, it's the script of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. That is the moral vision that the church has to offer. What that might look like in a particular context, it is the Spirit's work to help us discern, but it's not going to be anything other than Jesus, you know? I mean, Jesus is the moral vision, it seems to me. Am I? Am I... Convince me that I'm wrong or help me to see more clearly, Jack, kind of what would you say to that?

Jack Levison 35:57

I'd say, I would agree with that. I might flip the moral vision leading us to Jesus. I might say, if we start with Jesus, it leads us to a moral vision. So I might flip the order you had. But basically, in John's Gospel, this beautiful, beautiful text, you have Jesus saying, The Spirit will lead you into all the truth. And then in the Gospel itself, there are things that disciples did not understand. They didn't understand when Jesus said, you know, "destroy the temple and I'll raise it in three days. "Only afterwards did they understand. When he went into the triumphal entry, they didn't understand. Only afterwards, it says they understood. This is the work of the Holy Spirit leading us into deeper, deeper, deeper understanding of Jesus. And you think about the church where we are now. Okay, let's put Jesus right in the middle, and we're all standing with our backs to Jesus, so we're all unified by Jesus, but we've got our backs to Jesus, and we're all facing out away from Jesus. What would it look like if we just turned around and instead of looking out with the backing of Jesus, each of us in our own direction, we all turned around and looked at Jesus. Then that prayer in John 17, "that they may be one, as you and I are one," Jesus prays, might actually happen, because we'd say, Wow, in the light of Jesus, I have to put some of these things as secondary priorities, the things that divide us. You know John Calvin, I remember reading way back in college, which was way back for me. He said, "We get so used to looking at a level plane in the light of the sun, but what happens when we look at the sun? Our eyes burn." I think we've gotten used to sort of being in the light of Jesus, the shadow of Jesus, the obliqueness of Jesus, but looking away. You know, "I'm interested in sexuality." "I'm interested in politics." "I'm interested in social justice." "I'm interested in converting people." And we're not looking together at Jesus. We're kind of looking from Jesus, and I think losing our focus, and certainly, no one would disagree, losing our unity.

Chris McAlilly 38:07

Yeah, I think that that's where just playing around with this idea, is Jesus our moral vision? Or do we see a moral vision from Jesus? And I think I don't know. I think there's something to be said for you know, if you were to, if you turn your eyes to Christ, there is something there that makes the... There's a person at the center of the vision, right? Instead of an ideology.

Eddie Rester 38:34 A dogma.

Chris McAlilly 38:35

Yeah, it's like, we're gonna take Jesus and go build our ideology, you know? It's no, it's a personal vision. You know, there's a person at the center of the vision. And that person, as you're saying, is the one, the only one at the center that could create a community that could sustain all the other differences. And we had a conversation yesterday. I'm not sure the order of these podcasts in terms of when they'll come out.

Eddie Rester 38:59
It may be tomorrow that we have this conversation, depending on how the podcasts come out.

Chris McAlilly 39:03

Yeah, but we had this conversation with the guy, Mark DeYmaz, who does multi ethnic... He's building multi ethnic churches, and a conversation around the Spirit's work to break down some of our homogeneity and to begin, again, to bring us together across language, nation, people, and tribe, really the work of the Spirit, the Spirit in the early church. And I was just blown away by him. And one of the things he said is that the unity of the church is our credible witness to the Gospel. It just is. And so, you know, I do think there's a lot in this area worth further conversation and exploration. And so I'm grateful, grateful for, you know, the impetus to begin thinking about it.

Eddie Rester 39:49
I was just thinking we should write a song, something around like, "Turn your eyes upon Jesus."

Maybe, "look full at his wonderful face."

Chris McAlilly 39:58
I actually don't like that song. I don't know, Jack, do you like that song? I don't like it because it's...

Jack Levison 40:02
What I don't like is the way it continues.

Chris McAlilly 40:03
Yeah, that's right. The second half, "the things of earth will not," you know...

Eddie Rester 40:07 "Will grow strangely dim."

Chris McAlilly 40:08
And so now we're all kind of traveling up as, like, shadow goes, Yeah, but yeah. It's like, you wouldn't want that.

Eddie Rester 40:13
We should rewrite that song, then.

Chris McAlilly 40:15

Okay, rewrite it. Yeah. All you have to do is take out the things of earth don't become dim, they just become more clear.

Eddie Rester 40:20 They become more bright.

Jack Levison 40:21 Yeah.

Chris McAlilly 40:22 Yeah, that's right.

Jack Levison 40:22 More urgent.

Chris McAlilly 40:23

Yeah, more urgent. So if someone wanted to... I mean, I think there are the practical questions of, you know, somebody wants to continue exploring, I don't know if that's the right way to end. I don't know. Where, if somebody is interested in digging in and maybe learning more about the Spirit within the Old or New Testament, maybe we could ask that question. Where would you lead someone to begin? And then what would be, if somebody wants to experience the work of the Spirit in the world, maybe what's a first step?

Jack Levison 40:34

Well, for study, the first step, for me, is always a word study, but that's a little tricky, because if you don't know Hebrew, it makes it very difficult. So how about this, forgive me for this, but I wrote a book called "A Boundless God: the Spirit, according to the Old Testament." It actually won a Christianity Today award in '21. And a guy said, "Who knew that a word study could read like an adventure story?" So to be honest, I would recommend "A Boundless God." That's heavier. I'd probably start... There are not many books... Okay, most books on the Holy Spirit start like this, with a healing or, you know, "the Holy Spirit does everything you don't have in your own power to do." And it creates awful expectations, and it's not correct. So I don't usually recommend popular books on the Holy Spirit, apart for the ones, of course, that I write. But I would probably start the Old Testament. I would probably start with "Fresh Air." There are discussion questions in the back that I wrote, and I'd try to answer those questions. I'd write them down. If you want to do a word study, you have to do a word study based on Ruach and not "Spirit" or "wind" or "breath," because if you look up spirit, you're going to miss up hundreds of references. If you look up wind, hundreds of references because of translation issues. So maybe "Fresh Air". I mean, I hate to say this. It might be a very good place to start if you're interested in the Old Testament, in particular, "A Boundless God." I've written some other things. But in the New Testament, there's a really good book by John Carroll, C-A-R-R-O-L- L, Presbyterian, and it's just a good, solid introduction to the Spirit in the New Testament. I wrote an endorsement for that book. It's a good book.

Eddie Rester 42:46

What I like about "Fresh Air," and why I would encourage folks to pick it up, is that--I haven't had a chance to read the whole thing--but as I've moved through it, there's a combination of great storytelling, Scripture, and then places to pause, places to engage and listen with what the Spirit is speaking to you through what you've written. And so I would encourage if... And it's not one of those, the Spirit's going to lead you to all victory, and all you're going to win everything, and life's going to be perfect once you get a handle on the Spirit, because that's not true. That's not what the... That's not what... That's not biblical. The prosperity gospel, the gospel of constant victory, is not biblical at all.

Chris McAlilly 42:51

But I do think the thing that I'm reminded of is the thing that I will sometimes preach about, which is, you see what you're looking for. You know, you begin to see what you're looking for in the world. And I do think that, you know, I mean my base example for this is one time I wanted a Ford F-150 pickup truck, and I started seeing them everywhere on the road. And people have that kind of experience. Once you start looking for the Spirit, once you can discern kind of how the Spirit moves and works, both in the Old and New Testament, you can take that lens into the world, and you'll begin to see the world differently. You just will. I think that's one of the benefits of a deep, deep biblical study. And so Jack, you have taken us on that just kind of a glimpse of it today in the conversation. We're grateful for your deep love of the Bible and for your willingness to go on that journey for yourself, and for the ways in which you've opened it up for us today. Thank you so much.

Jack Levison 44:42 Thank you. That's kind.

Eddie Rester 44:43
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Chris McAlilly 44:53

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