“Family & Faith” with Cal Turner Jr.

Show Notes:

In part one of a two-part conversation, Eddie and Chris are joined by Cal Turner Jr. Cal was the chairman and CEO of Dollar General, a chain of stores founded by his father Cal Turner Sr. 

Cal earned his Bachelor of Arts degree from Vanderbilt University in 1962 then joined the Dollar General corporation in 1965. His first job was sweeping the warehouse floor, but he worked his way up to being president in 1977 and then chairman in 1988. He served as chairman and CEO until 2003.

Cal’s faith and deep connection to his family grounded him throughout his life. When he was 11 years old, he experienced a moment of spiritual clarity that has guided him since. In this episode, Cal, Eddie, and Chris talk about his faith, his family, and touch briefly on his leadership style, which boils down to being a follower of Christ and a follower of the employees and customers that were his to lead.

Join us next week for part two, where we discuss business and philanthropy with Cal.

Transcript:

00:00 I'm Eddie Rester.

Chris McAlilly 00:01
I'm Chris McAlilly. Welcome to The Weight.

Eddie Rester 00:04

Today we're talking with Cal Turner, Jr. Cal and his father founded the Dollar General Stores. You may be familiar with those stores, particularly if you live in the southeast. He retired from that in 2003, and we wanted to have conversations with him about multiple topics. And so in this episode, we're going to talk with him about family and faith.

Chris McAlilly 00:28

Cal grew up in Scottsville, Kentucky, and his family comes from a farming background. And at a certain moment, his grandfather realized that retail was a little bit easier than farming. And they made a transition and what they did throughout the family is a fascinating story of how-- it's an American story really, after World War Two, of a family that finds great success in the marketplace. Cal, in this conversation, will talk to us a little bit about what it meant to grow up in his family of origin. Everybody's got a story. Everybody's got a family that impacts the person, the people that they become. And then he also will tell us a little bit about how his faith impacted not only the way he interacted with folks in his family and in the community, but also how his faith impacted his journey in business as well.

Eddie Rester 01:30

We got to spend a long day with Cal Turner Jr., just talking and then recording these episodes. And you know, Chris, one of the things that I found him to be very humble and honest about his life. And I think throughout the story, you're going to hear pieces of things that relate to your life and things that may be part of your story as well.

Chris McAlilly 01:57

Yeah, everybody's got a story. And I think this will be the first of other conversations that we'll have moving into the future, just about how family impacts us. What is your relationship with faith or no faith? What does that do to the trajectory of your story? And then ultimately, in the next conversation, we'll be talking about business and philanthropy. And we'll tell you a little bit more about that one coming out. But you want to stay with it for a couple episodes with Cal. It was a phenomenal, phenomenal set of conversations.

Chris McAlilly 02:32
If you like this episode, just leave us a review. Share it with your people. Help us help other folks find their way here.

Eddie Rester 02:40

[INTRO] Life can be heavy. We carry around with us the weight of our doubt, our pain, our suffering, our mental health, our family system, our politics. This is a podcast to create space for all of that.

Chris McAlilly 02:54

We want to talk about these things with humility, charity, and intellectual honesty. But more than that, we want to listen. It's time to open up our echo chamber. Welcome to The Weight. [END INTRO]

Eddie Rester 03:09

We're here today with Cal Turner. Cal, thank you for spending some time with us for this series of conversations that we're in with you. We're thankful for your faithfulness, and just the joy of getting to spend some time with you.

Cal Turner Jr. 03:12
Thank you, Eddie. It's a joy, a joy to be here.

Chris McAlilly 03:30

Oh, it's so great. We want to talk about different dimensions of your story. You've written about it. You've spoken about it in different contexts. But what we want to do is kind of dive into different dimensions, and we want to start with family. I know that your family has been very important to you through the years, and you talk about it at the beginning of a book that you wrote about your father's business, of the importance of your grandmother, who was the strength behind your grandfather, your mother, who was the strengthened anchor behind your father, and throughout the book, you see the importance of a family in how you think about life. I wonder if you could maybe just start by telling us where you grew up and maybe about your mom and dad and your family at the beginning.

Cal Turner Jr. 04:17
Well, Chris in that book, there's a chapter titled "The Center of the Universe." So that is Scottsville, Kentucky.

Eddie Rester 04:29
Does that mean you're a Kentucky fan? Do we need to clear that up before we go any further?

Cal Turner Jr. 04:33

It actually... It means there's a yes and no answer to that. Scottsville, Kentucky is 10 miles from the Tennessee line in south central Kentucky. And we identify with Nashville more than Louisville.

Eddie Rester 04:55 Okay.

Cal Turner Jr. 04:55

We identify with Lexington in the Kentucky Derby even more than with Louisville. Maybe Nashville was our river town, didn't have nearly the the river that Louisville had. But no, and yet when I moved, when we moved to Nashville, I called myself a Nashville, Kentuckian. That felt a better descriptive of me then. But this part of the country is truly God's country to me. And my family is largely the definition of who I am. My having often said, that of all the persons I've met, I have never encountered anyone whom I consider equally blessed. I had the affirming life-positioning love of both mother and father. And each was very different from the other with a different dimension, a different contribution to give to me.

Cal Turner Jr. 06:38

My mother would [CLEARS THROAT], excuse me, my mother would prompt me to try to regard how I was coming across to other people saying things to me like, "Son, you're out of touch with your face again." Meaning what your face is communicating is not what is really going on inside you. And from her I learned to try to hold a mirror in front of my face, figuratively, always to understand how I came across with others.

Cal Turner Jr. 07:31

My father was an only child the only surviving Turner child of three. He had an older sister and brother who died in infancy, which happened a lot back in those days. And you introduced me is Cal Turner. And I felt good about that introduction, but to me, there's only one Cal Turner and I've called my father the real Cal Turner. I always lived with the label Cal Turner Jr., and my relationship with my father was largely a business relationship, which has to be unusual. His relationship with his father was a business relationship. Because Luther Turner, my grandfather was in charge of the family at the age of 11 when his father, his farmer father, was killed in a Saturday afternoon wrestling match.

Eddie Rester 08:55 Oh, gosh.

Cal Turner Jr. 08:56

Just a fake happening. I mean a surprise happening. Not fake at all. Real. And Luther, with his third grade education, was the head of a family with three younger siblings and his mother, a heavily mortgaged farm with soil that's not very rich. It's rocky and not very good farming soil.

Chris McAlilly 09:31
One of the things you say about him is that he's one of the smartest men you ever knew.

Cal Turner Jr. 09:34 Yes.

Chris McAlilly 09:35
And one of the hardest working. Tell us a little bit more about him, your grandfather.

Cal Turner Jr. 09:39

Luther Turner, because he only had a third grade education, Chris, had an empowering assumption that everybody he met was smarter than he and that he should learn something from everybody he met, because he only had a third grade education. And I was the one of the four Turner kids who knew him the best. I was the first born male, number two child, and he and I would go out to the farm together. And he and I were buddies. There is something about the grandparent-grandchild connection that is uniquely special. Our consulting psychologist, Dr. Mortimer Feinberg, of New York City, used to say that grandchildren and grandparents have a natural bonding because they share the same enemy.

Eddie Rester 11:05
[LAUGHTER] Took me a second. But yeah.

Cal Turner Jr. 11:13
But Pop and I were buddies. He called me Preacher.

Chris McAlilly 11:21
I love what you say. You say "he's a first rate observer, a great listener, and a dedicated student of life."

Cal Turner Jr. 11:27 Yes.

Chris McAlilly 11:28 Yeah.

Cal Turner Jr. 11:29 Yes, yes.

Chris McAlilly 11:29

There's something about, you know, the way in which intelligence gets formed on a farm, you know, that's different than in a classroom. And there's a way in which you learn to pay attention to the world around you, to the animals, to the earth, to the sky, and to other people that I think is unique. I do think it's... I don't know. There's a difference, I think, in the kind of education that I was given, and the kind of education that my grandfather was given. He grew up on a farm.

Cal Turner Jr. 12:00 Good observation, Chris.

Chris McAlilly 12:02 Yeah.

Cal Turner Jr. 12:02
Nature is more demanding of attention on the farm than it is inside.

Chris McAlilly 12:11
How did he shift to the wholesale business? Or was that your father? Was it your grandfather? Or was it your father that started the business?

Cal Turner Jr. 12:18

Our company was always a joint venture of Cal and Luther. Because Luther only had a third grade education, and when my dad had more education, he was needed in the business. So he took young Cal with him. They'd get up two and three o'clock in the morning and drive a long distance to get to a store to be auctioned in the Depression. It was going to be sold, completely auctioned that day and they had about an hour to take an inventory of that store, before the auction. And my dad was good at math, and he would pencil--he'd say, "22 pairs of women's shoes, and I'll put them down at $3 and a half each." And he would go through everything and do a quick, quick, quick, quick, put a value on it and then he'd total it, and divide his total by half, and that's what he hoped to buy it for.

Cal Turner Jr. 13:32

And then after he'd buy it, he was cocky. "Yes! Yes, we bought it!" You know, the male animal wants to win. The female animal understands how you win better. The male doesn't care how. That's just numero uno motivation--to win. That means somebody else has to lose. And I don't think that is good leadership orientation of boys that comes from their being male. Somebody wins, somebody loses. But I digress. Can you all help me get back on track?

Eddie Rester 14:25

I'm just thinking about the impact of, you know, your grandfather and your father. It's very clear to me that you're one that hasn't just honored those who have come before but has really learned and soaked up who they were and the lessons that they taught over the years. You know, as we've wandered around your home and your office here, there are pictures of family everywhere. And you talked one of the pictures you pointed to me, the first board meeting of Dollar General was you and your dad sitting on the front porch. So I'm wondering what are some of those other major lessons that you've learned, the observation, you know, the kind of the willingness to learn from everybody around you, what else did they teach you? And I'd include your mom in that as well as a major influence. What are the lessons that you continue to carry?

Cal Turner Jr. 15:18

Well my mother had the female ability to read people. I think women have a different antenna. And, and she was trying to help me get over myself. And every boy I know, and I assume every girl needs a parent to aid him or her in getting over yourself. And my mother was determined to love equally all four of her children. And yet, she knew the uniqueness of each child better than my dad did. And so she described when I, the last to get married, when Margaret and I married, there was that mother-in-law/daughter-in-law, quiet time together after the wedding. And my mother described each of her four children to my new bride, saving me for last, of course.

Eddie Rester 17:01 Of course.

Cal Turner Jr. 17:02

And when she got, she said, Well, "Cal Jr." This was her only statement about me. "Cal Jr. was born old." She didn't elaborate. And somehow, woman to woman, elaboration seemed unnecessary. How do they do that? How do women pull that off among themselves, excluding all of us males, I don't know. But here I am now. I've lived 82 years and I was born old. And here I am. I don't know how old I am.

Chris McAlilly 18:01

I wonder, through the years, I know your relationship with your father and grandfather changed as you became part of the business, as you took on leadership roles. You've talked about that in other contexts. I wonder if you could maybe talk about, you know, because I think family, there's a founding love and an affirming presence that I hear in your story.

Cal Turner Jr. 18:24 Amen. Yes.

Chris McAlilly 18:25
But there's also, you know, there are...

Eddie Rester 18:28 Changes.

Chris McAlilly 18:29

There are changes and challenges. I know, I have some friends who, you know, have worked alongside their father, worked alongside their grandfather. I worked for my grandfather for a bit of time. He asked me to take over his business, and I said, no. I wanted to go in a different direction. You didn't. You went into the business and then over the course of time, saw a trajectory and direction that it would need to go, that put you at odds in some ways with your father and your grandfather. I wonder if you could kind of talk through that a little bit, if you'd be willing.

Cal Turner Jr. 19:06
Well, I almost have to get into the faith.

Eddie Rester 19:18 That's fun stuff.

Cal Turner Jr. 19:19

Here. I can't talk about the important relationships of my life without bringing faith into it. But my father was the most completely affirming father I could ever have hoped to have, saying things such as, "Cal Jr. is smarter than I am," with conviction. He believed that, which proved to me which of the two of us was smarter.

Eddie Rester 20:11 Smarter. Yeah.

Cal Turner Jr. 20:12

The one who says that is far smarter than the one about whom he says. And he, because business was his family connection to his father. And faith is largely a connection to our Heavenly Father. It was so commingled in his mind and spirit that he couldn't make the separation.

Chris McAlilly 20:57 Right.

Cal Turner Jr. 20:58
And I always assumed that that was the way it was for everybody else. Because you're largely inclined to project your reality to everybody else.

Eddie Rester 21:17 Right.

Cal Turner Jr. 21:18

And I've always done that. And I may not have described your reality, Chris, or your reality, Eddie. But it was... I think each of us should take his own stuff and allow the healing love of our Lord through the Holy Spirit to work with that, and to help him to connect with others. Of those important two rules: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul strength, and mind, and love your neighbors yourself, I have to work on loving my neighbor as myself. Cause I can more easily identify my neighbor than I can God. Though, I thank God for the amazing willingness to become human in Christ, otherwise, I would have no way of relating to him.

Chris McAlilly 22:27

Yeah, I want to come back to what you said, that business was the family connection that your father had to his father, and that there was this, you couldn't even think about... I mean, for them, it was to be in a family and to be in the business, that's the same thing. It wasn't family life over here and the business over there. Did you come to a point where you felt like that was? I mean, did you agree that that's the way it had to be? Or that it should be? Or did you find as you came into leadership in the business that, perhaps, that needed to be separated? Perhaps, that business needed to be here, family over there?

Chris McAlilly 23:06

I think about this in terms of, you know, the family business for us has always been the church. And there's the identity that our family has had is very, very much tied to the church. And I think one of the things I've had to work through is, is that a healthy thing or not? Is that good for the family? Or is it good for the church? And perhaps, the way that I received it from my father, who is also a pastor, for those who don't know that. You know, those are complex realities to have to kind of sort through. I wonder how you thought through those, as you came into business and into the family?

Cal Turner Jr. 23:45
I wonder how I did, too. I think your questions are probably easier to pose than to answer.

Chris McAlilly 23:59 Absolutely.

Cal Turner Jr. 24:05
Um, so I'm not quite sure how to start.

Eddie Rester 24:12

Let me ask it a different way. I've got a lot of friends who work within the family business, and what are some of the things that you did across the years to ensure that even as business decisions were made and family decisions were made that the family was able to continue to be family? How did you manage that?

Cal Turner Jr. 24:33

Well, I came into the business buying into my dad's template, that Dollar General was a family business. Actually, when I came in, it was not Dollar General. It was Jay L. Turner and Son. And in Scottsville, they called part of town Turner's. It was a family thing. And I explained the origin of the company as a wholesale company. Because my father and my grandfather found a big brick building in Scottsville, Kentucky that they could buy for half price, and a Turner will buy anything at half price.

Cal Turner Jr. 25:36

Now, but what do you do with it? Well, we'll start a wholesale business. They had both been employed by a Nashville, Tennessee wholesaler. And that work seemed so much easier than farming to Luther Turner.

Eddie Rester 25:57 I bet.

Cal Turner Jr. 25:57
There are a lot of successful former farmers, because they're afraid they'll have to go back to

farming if they don't succeed. So they have a lot of motive for success.

Chris McAlilly 26:09 Right.

Cal Turner Jr. 26:11
But so family and business, I didn't understand that, Chris and Eddie, at the time. A lot of my understanding of my past comes to me now in old age.

Eddie Rester 26:37 Right.

Chris McAlilly 26:38

Right. Yeah, I wonder as you think about, you know, over the years, and kind of as you reflect back on your family, both your family of origin, and then as you think back on your family from this point in your life, I wonder kind of what do you appreciate, maybe now that you didn't then? And for folks who are at the beginning of their life, or in the middle or the thick of it, as they're trying to grow business or to raise families, what advice would you give for somebody who's my age or younger?

Cal Turner Jr. 27:18

Well, I have never considered myself to be a purveyor of advice. I try to help everyone ask a different, or a deeper question. I try to understand the question of someone else's life, and I want to hear him or her talk about that. And you can discuss that better with women than you can with men. Because they seem more discerning about those relationship, rapport-building issues than men. They understand. I think they understand themselves better. And I'm glad God decided that his best shot at replicating himself on Earth had to include male, very much needed by female, whom he created equally with male. And I'm not so sure that male deserves my saying that female was equal. I have needed women. And the retail business is one where the leader should recognize that women are better at retailing than men.

Chris McAlilly 29:08

That's interesting. One of the things that you say in the book is how important building a culture that is service-oriented. That requires a mothering quality. Some of the things that you learned from your mother influenced the way in which you built the culture of the business, and we'll get to that later. I guess, you know, for me, the reason I ask that question, then you turn it right back around on me is because I'm in the thick of it, you know, trying to figure out how do I raise a family and prioritize the relationships that are important with my children who are very needy with also making sure that I'm taking care of business, you know, in the way that that looks for me, and I think that is a struggle that everyone faces.

Chris McAlilly 29:08

And I hope you own the truth that you cannot prioritize it. You have to be present in every moment and accept your priority from God.

Chris McAlilly 30:12
That's a good word. I appreciate that. Thank you Cal.

Cal Turner Jr. 30:14
Well, how dare I attempt to preach to a preacher.

Chris McAlilly 30:24
Well, you know, I think there's a lot of preachers that need some preaching, preaching at or preaching to.

Eddie Rester 30:33

Cal, I'm thankful, your love for family, your appreciation of family, I think is evident in who you've become and what you've passed down. I know that over the last few years, you've grieved the loss of wife and I think a sister last few years. And I think maybe my last question for you today is what's helped you as you've had to say goodbye at moments to family? How have you continued to share your joy and deepen even your faith through those moments?

Cal Turner Jr. 31:10

Well, my faith defines who I am. And it happened in our family that Luther Turner's life definition came when Luther was 11 and his father was suddenly killed. Mine came at the age of 11 also, in the summertime, on a beautiful Sunday evening that was quiet after church, after Methodist Youth Fellowship--that's before that "united" stuff. Its interesting to me that the word United got added. And it seems that the unity didn't come with the word.

Cal Turner Jr. 32:19
Didn't come with the word, that's right.

Cal Turner Jr. 32:20

with the additional label. But it was Methodist Youth Fellowship. But I was waiting to be picked up by my parents, and I was sitting on the front porch of my uncle's house across the street from the church. Beautiful, quiet summer evening with a nice breeze, and the rustling of the leaves and the emerging darkness and peacefulness of the town. And the words and the tune to "The Old Rugged Cross" came over me in a way, uncreated by me. I had nothing to do with it. But I was overwhelmed by the conviction that, while it was amazingly wonderful that Jesus Christ had gone to Calvary for everyone, that he nevertheless, specifically had Cal Turner Jr. in mind. He had me in mind. And I thought, What? What does that mean? What does that mean? And last year when I was 71, I said, "Okay, this is the 70th anniversary of that. What do you make of it now?"

Cal Turner Jr. 34:00

I was supposed to ask that question every day of my life. What does it mean that Jesus Christ specifically died with Cal Turner, Jr. in mind? He was God. He had the capacity to do that. And that's what compelled him to do it. He did it for me. What is my agenda of following through on that? How do I do that today? How do I do it now? And the death of of my wife, which was a complete surprise--she was almost six years younger than I, and the man is supposed to die first. So my prayer of life to God said, "God, this is all wrong. I don't understand what you're doing. She's female. She's younger." But I was, I was at peace with it. I had been her caregiver. I'm not any good at stuff. All my life I've had to attempt things I wasn't good at. And that was a blessing. When you have to do something that is beyond you, you own your need for Christ better than when you're macho, cocky.

Cal Turner Jr. 35:52

And so I had a peacefulness about it. And then with my sister, those were the two female connection, remaining female connections of meaning to me. I had them with my beloved mother and both grandmothers. I had the theory that a man is his mother on the inside, modeled after his father on the outside. And that's the best I could do of figuring myself out. So what are you, Chris? And what are you, Eddie? How well do you fit into that?

Eddie Rester 36:58

You know, one of the things when I talk to young couples about to get married, one of the things I talk to them a lot about is family of origin, that we live in the ruts that other people dug for us, and some of those ruts are great and wonderful and mighty and powerful and life giving, and some of the ruts sometimes aren't as good. And sometimes you have to name those ruts and climb out of them as well. But I thank you for sharing with us today, just about the power of your family and your life and the connections all the way to the end, what they've meant to you and how they've shaped you. And I just appreciate you sharing that with us today.

Chris McAlilly 37:38

I think one of the things that we share is the way in which you can't talk about family without talking about your faith. And that's the case for me as well. And I want in our next conversation, we're going to turn more specifically and directly in the direction of your faith, I'm sure we'll still be talking about family as well. So thank you, Cal, for this conversation. You guys stick around. We have more with Cal Turner coming up. [BREAK]

Chris McAlilly 38:08

[END BREAK] We're continuing conversation with Cal Turner about his family, about his faith. And we'll get to his business and his philanthropy in future conversations. But we want to drill down a little bit on the way in which your faith has impacted both who you are and kind of all dimensions of your life. One of the things that you said in the last conversation, Cal, was that your faith defines who you are. And you told us a story about how that began when you were 11 years old, when you realized that you were overwhelmed and compelled by this moment when Christ, the death of Christ was specifically with you in mind. I wonder what happened next in your faith journey from there from 11 through your teenage years.

Cal Turner Jr. 39:03
Well my first concern and response to that experience was that I might have to be a preacher.

Eddie Rester 39:15 Oh goodness.

Cal Turner Jr. 39:17

And maybe the little old ladies of the church were right. "Cal Jr., we're praying that you're going to become a preacher," and tears would come down their face and tears would come down my face in response to their saying that, too, and it scared the hell out of my dad because he had in mind for me what I should do. And so then we, back then we did a retread every four years. We got a new Methodist preacher. And we got a new one and he said, "Cal Jr., I understand you're considering the ministry." "Yes, yes I am." He said, "Here's my advice to you: Don't do it."

Chris McAlilly 40:05 Probably good advice.

Cal Turner Jr. 40:07

"Do something else. Do anything else you can do. Because only if there is nothing else you can do are you called to be a minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We have far too few in ministry who weren't really called. And I said, "Oh, thank you, Lord."

Eddie Rester 40:46

You know, that's great advice. I think that it's too often people feel that pressure to go into ministry, maybe they have certain gifts. But I think that preacher is right, and that was the advice I was given along the way--if you can do anything else, do it. And if you can't, be a

Cal Turner Jr. 41:01

So I wasn't good at anything. And I got this, when I was clerking on Saturday afternoon, I got this smelly, ugly, dirty, awful farmer customer. We had our store full of customers, and here he was. And since I was the worst clerk, I got the worst customer, and he was the worst customer. "All right, may I help you?" "Well, I need a pair of panties for the old lady." "Okay, well, we have these 39 cent panties." And he said, "Okay." I said, "Well, what size does she wear?" He said, "I don't know." I thought, well, this is only a 39 cent sale. And I don't even know how to make a 39 cent sale. I said, "Well," I asked the obvious question, "how big is she?"

Cal Turner Jr. 41:01

Yeah. Well, that was profound advice for me. But then I thought "Well, what am I supposed to do? What are my life marching orders from this stamp of Christ on my life?" And I had no doubt about that stamp being there. So what do I do with that? And I thought, "oh, no, Surely not. Surley not." My calling was right at hand. It was right at my point of resistance. I did not want to go into this family business. I had clerked at Allen Dry Goods. I was the worst clerk. I had worked in the warehouse. I lost 3500 pairs of shoes when I got the order up and put it on the floor of the tobacco barn warehouse that we had. And somehow those shoes got shipped to a different store. We never knew where they went. Or at least they were gone. They were gone.

Cal Turner Jr. 43:32

And my Aunt Ethel was our best clerk and she was halfway across the store carrying a big bundle of merchandise to the ring up at the register. This was before self service. And he said well, "she's about her size." So I did the obvious thing, I said, "Ethel, what's up guys panties do you wear?" And that was the day I made my best sale in retailing. When I picked up Ethel's merchandise off of the floor. She had thrown it in the air and it had fallen on the floor. And I picked it up and rang up that great big sale and came back to that farmer, and so there he was. He was just standing there waiting for me. And so we made our best guess and he left with a pair of panties for the old lady. "Cal, Cal," God said to me, "do you know what's going on here? You're looking down on that man who actually could be your grandfather. But unlike your grandfather, that man doesn't have the opportunity to get ahead life. Cal, you are rich, and he is poor."

Cal Turner Jr. 45:07

Well, the Turners weren't rich. And now I realized that the world is full of people who are rich and don't know it. Don't understand that. Relative, look at what's going on in the world, look at all the struggling people on earth and look at the depraved leadership that is in place in pockets all over the earth today. That's why we need Christ.

Chris McAlilly 45:55

I wonder, one of the things about your story, the story of you're really coming into contact with the crucified and risen Lord, involved the song, "The Old Rugged Cross," and one of the things I note about your faith, through time and even you know, what you always have around are pianos and music. Music is an important part of your faith.

Cal Turner Jr. 46:20 Yes.

Chris McAlilly 46:20
I wonder if you could just talk about that. Where did that begin? Was it in the church there in Kentucky? Was it in your family? Where did faith in music connect?

Cal Turner Jr. 46:31

That was in church. That was in the small town, Methodist Church, East Main Street Scottsville, Kentucky Sunday evening service, which ended with the darkened sanctuary, only the lighted cross. And Sue Lyles playing on the pipe organ some of the old Cokesbury hymns about the cross, and all of us dismissing ourselves individually, with that prayer time, with that soft music.

Chris McAlilly 47:14

That is beautiful. Yeah. So in United Methodist or Methodist context, that evening prayer service, I think specifically for children, was a time where you would come together, and it would be a time where things were a little bit more quiet, less chaotic. And there was more silence, you know, and there was simple hymns, and a lot of silence and room for contemplation and prayer. That's fascinating. And so you're connected to those old hymns.

Cal Turner Jr. 47:45

Yes, yes I did. And we'd have prayer time, and somebody would be called on to say the prayer. And I learned back then as I listened to the adults, that there are three things you ask God: lead, guide, and direct. Lead, guide, and direct. And somebody else would say, "lead, guide, and direct." And then somebody once said, "lead and guide." And I laughed. He missed one. It's supposed to be lead, guide, and direct. The church has its ways. The church is the only institution on earth blessed by God; therefore, I believe it to be the only one that will truly survive forever.

Cal Turner Jr. 48:49

And in our company, we fought the emerging institutionalization of Dollar General, my father and I did. The institutional hardening of the arteries that occurs and I saw it in the church, even at a young age. That's why I was so relieved that I didn't have to get into that community management. I mean, committee, committee management dynamic of the church. We have a committee for this and a committee for that. And we'd make the same decisions that that committee had always made, and we wouldn't... So think the ways of the world when you pursue understanding of them...

Chris McAlilly 49:57 Yeah

Cal Turner Jr. 49:58 frustrate you.

Chris McAlilly 50:00
Yeah, for sure, for sure. And I think one of the ways, I guess what cleanses the arteries of the church in a lot of ways is its music. It's the beauty and the wonder...

Cal Turner Jr. 50:09 I think so.

Chris McAlilly 50:10

of the hymns. It's the singing and the worship. Because when you connect to that, you've connected. You know, a lot of the other stuff falls away, and children sense that, you know. I think that young people really sense those moments when the adults stop clamoring around, you know, and they make room for the presence of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Eddie Rester 50:33

Cal, afew minutes ago, you mentioned that, as the adults would pray, you would hear them pray about lead, guide, and direct. And then I was thinking about a conversation that we had right before we started recording about the importance of following. That the world preaches about leadership, but what the Church calls us to do is to follow. So what does that mean for you, who you have been a leader in business and in the business world? What does it mean for you to allow Christ to lead, guide, and direct? What does it mean for you to be a follower first?

Cal Turner Jr. 51:10

Well, I think the leadership dynamic of everyone is determination of what and whom he follows, or she follows. We're not here to lead in my opinion. We're here to follow. As CEO of Dollar General, I considered myself to be a follower of Christ, and a follower of all of the employees and the customers that were mine, supposedly, to lead. But I needed to follow them. And my style of leadership was to poke fun at myself and say, I've done most of the jobs all of you do, and admit that I was not good at any one of those jobs I did, except the first one--sweeping the floor in the warehouse. I got feedback. I could tell yes, that is the best darn swept floor I've ever seen. I did that. I did that. So life is largely about removing the I from life and replacing it with Thou.

Chris McAlilly 53:01

Yeah, I think that that's one of the things that I find interesting about the way that you talk about faith, because I think there's--and I wonder where you picked it up. May have been from Martin Buber, where he talks about the I and the Thou. But I wonder where you talk both about the importance of removing the self and the ego from the center. At the same time, you really emphasize the uniqueness of each individual person. That is an interesting... it's not a paradox, exactly, but it's an interesting way. How do you put those two things together? Where did you come? What are some of the resources? I know you read theology. You've been a lifelong student of the Bible. Where did you come to that understanding of your faith as a mature kind of adult? And don't, don't. I'm gonna say before... You're gonna poke at the maturity question. Just leave that to the side and answer the question.

Cal Turner Jr. 54:00

[LAUGHTER] Okay, Chris. Well, I scarcely know where to start with that answer. I have always been given an awareness of my own impotence to perform. I had a moment with the new CEO of one of the largest companies in the world who happened to be a friend of mine. I had about five minutes alone with this person. I wonder what I'm going to say to him? And I said to him, "Now that you're CEO, I hope you understand the impotence of power." I had the best grounding of power in corporate America, in my opinion, because our family owned enough stock in the company, that my position was secure. And the founder of the company was my number one cheerleader. So look at that that power. And if I sense that, because I didn't understand the business the way my father understood the business, and my job was to help this business to grow up. And my performance should be measured by the success of my non- Turner successor. Because when my dad had taken the company public. He said, "Okay, son, we're going public now."

Cal Turner Jr. 56:26

I'd been there three years, trying to figure the business out. And I discovered in those three years that he couldn't teach me anything. He was an entrepreneur, and entrepreneur just pulls decisions out of his gut, I think, and he can't explain them. And I would try to analyze them and say, "Daddy, were you thinking, when you made that decision, were you thinking Option A or Option B?" And he'd say, "Well, not either one, but kind of a combination." "Oh, well, thank you. Thank you, God, I have one hell of a teacher here."

Cal Turner Jr. 57:10

So I had to learn. He couldn't teach. Guess what? You as parents can't teach. You model. I, as a leader, had to model my faith in Jesus Christ, in the real world kind of way that he dispensed his ministry when He was on earth. He didn't like the church when he was here. You're ministers of the church, and I think you might be more effective if you don't like the church but if you love the founder of church. And that defined the leadership of that company, and it had various iterations. And I have a number of stories behind each of them. But that was the heart of the success of that company. And sure enough, that company has performed so much better after Turner management than it did during Turner management. So I've selfishly changed my definition of a good leader. A good leader is someone whose successors are better.

Eddie Rester 58:56

I wonder, because you're 82 years old now, 71 years past that moment where you heard and felt "The Old Rugged Cross" being sung. I know you're reading Bonhoeffer again. Now, how has your faith grown and maybe changed over the last generation of your life? I think you retired about 19 years ago, 20 years ago. So how has your faith continued to grow and change and what's been the impetus of some of that growth and change?

Cal Turner Jr. 59:35

Well, I believe it's a blessing to age because it's easier to get yourself out of the way of Christ because you're less and less impressed with yourself in old age. You don't hear as well, you don't think as well, you certainly can't remember the very last thing you tried to remember. Your short term memory absolutely goes away. And so you have the blessing of more powerful connection with God in old age, and I'd like for every listener to look a little more forward to old age.

Chris McAlilly 1:00:40

Right. Yeah, I also think that to be less impressed with the power that you have to do, to produce, to perform, to execute, or whatever and to be more open to get yourself out of the way, I think is one of the things I've heard you talk a lot about, and instead to put yourself in a position and a posture to be open to the power of God, to the power of Christ to flow and work through you uniquely. I think that that's one of the things I've heard you talk a lot about. And I just wonder where that comes from? Where did you? Was there a moment where you realize that? You said you have a lot of stories behind the stories. Or maybe share a story of when that was the case for you in life, or in your business?

Cal Turner Jr. 1:01:39

Well, I have had a number of affirmations along the way that had been meaningful to me. One of them was in the last session of a leadership training meeting in our company, when each person who had gone through that three-and-a-half day experience of training, in which he or she was asked to write a personal mission statement. I had opened the program. I was the first speaker, and I was the last one to return to hear from them.

Cal Turner Jr. 1:02:33

And as they went around the table, and each one spoke to what he or she had gotten from this meeting, one of them surprised me. And I'm reluctant to tell this story because it is self-serving. But I think it makes a leadership point. This young man said, "I've been with Dollar General for 13 years. And I want to tell everybody here why." He said, "Twelve years ago, in my first year in the company, I was unloading trailer at the loading dock at the warehouse. Hot summertime. Stagnant air in the trailer. And this man," he pointed to me, "this man came into the trailer and asked me how I was. But listen to this part. He waited for my answer. He waited for my answer. That's why I'm still here."

Cal Turner Jr. 1:03:54

And I've observed the shallow expression, "How are you?" Well, nobody ever answers. And the person who asked the question wasn't interested in the question he or she asked in the first place. But it's the right thing to say, now.

Eddie Rester 1:04:12 That's right.

Cal Turner Jr. 1:04:13

It's the right thing to say. But it's also the right thing to mean when you say it. And to get the right connection with the person that is in that 10 second ride up the elevator with you that you'll never encounter the rest of your life, that's a Christ moment. It's a Christ opportunity to help someone else be a little more aware that he or she matters to God.

Chris McAlilly 1:04:58

And that's the connection I think that in order to become the kind of person that can offer that to another person, you have to get out of the way, so that Christ is present to another person in and through you.

Cal Turner Jr. 1:05:12 And that's hard as hell, Chris.

Chris McAlilly 1:05:13

It's so hard. You know, I mean, where I feel it is on a Sunday afternoon, you know, and there's a hospital visit to make. And I am struggling to get my head in the game, because all I want to do is go home and just...

Chris McAlilly 1:05:27

Lay down, take a nap. And the prayer someone taught me to pray was "let the life of Jesus come alive in me." And just repeating that prayer has been incredibly helpful to me in just trying to get myself out of the way.

Eddie Rester 1:05:27 Lay down.

Cal Turner Jr. 1:05:43
That's my prayer, right there. "Lord, help me to get out of your way now."

Chris McAlilly 1:05:51

Yeah. And then what can happen in that is that another person can feel the connection and presence of Christ through you. And that's a powerful thing. When someone else offers that I'm, you know, less comfortable saying like someone else has felt that in connection to me, and I'm more comfortable in recognizing all the moments where that's been the case for me: This has been Christ for me in a particular moment. They've made me feel that Christ is real, that the risen Christ is not just a figment of my imagination, but that the risen Christ, and the power of the Holy Spirit can be present, and then through another human being.

Chris McAlilly 1:06:33

That has been the case for me, it's specific moments in my life. And what I hear you saying is not only that that's something that you've offered to other people, but it's something that you've experienced from other people. You mentioned your family, and particularly your mother and the women of your family. But I wonder, I just wonder, where were some of those people that you have received that kind of connection from?

Cal Turner Jr. 1:07:09

Well, the God messages have come to me from many different persons. And some of them have been do messages. And some of them have been do not messages. Primarily, I used my father, because he was the founder of our business and he and I, in many ways, have the same DNA. I knew I was like him. I tried to watch how he came across, and how he made, which connections he made were valid and helpful and which ones were not. So I had to determine how I wanted to be more like my father and how I wanted to be less like my father. True learning embraces the positive and the negative. And now as I look back on my life, I am more blessed. I have been more blessed by the bad times than by the good times, by those times I've been carried. And guess who carried me?

Eddie Rester 1:08:49

Cal, I want to thank you for sharing about your faith. It's a thread in every conversation we've had. I know it's going to be a thread in the conversations we continue to have. So thank you for this time to share about how it is you view Christ and how you view living that relationship out. Thank you.

Chris McAlilly 1:09:08 Thanks, Cal.

Eddie Rester 1:09:09
[OUTRO] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, the best way to help us is to like, subscribe, or leave a review.

Chris McAlilly 1:09:17

If you would like to support this work financially or if you have an idea for a future guest, you can go to theweightpodcast.com. [END OUTRO]