Discipleship | “Perfect Love” with Kevin Watson

Shownotes:

Eddie and Chris are joined by a previous guest on The Weight, Kevin Watson, for a discussion about Christian perfection, or the Wesleyan doctrine of entire sanctification--that Christians can live without sin. John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist movement, believed that the grace of God is available to all who hear the gospel, repent, and believe. The Christian life of faith means opening yourself to being fully holy through Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

In Kevin Watson’s book, Perfect Love: Recovering Entire Sanctification—the Lost Power of the Methodist Movement, he offers an in-depth explanation of entire sanctification and helps Christians pursue a life of thriving in the love of Christ.

Kevin is Associate Pastor at First Methodist Church of Waco, Texas. He is also an Affiliate Research Professor at Baylor University’s George W. Truett Theological Seminary. He is an author, teacher, and speaker, and previously served Associate Professor of Wesley and Methodist Studies at Emory University’s Candler School of Theology.

Resources:

Buy books by Kevin on  Amazon

Find Kevin on social media: Twitter Website

Transcript:

Eddie Rester 00:00 I'm Eddie Rester.

Chris McAlilly 00:01
I'm Chris McAlilly. Welcome to The Weight.

Eddie Rester 00:04

We're so excited for our conversation partner today. Kevin Watson is back with us. He spoke to us during the depths of the pandemic in our first season. He's come out with a new book, and we're talking to him about that book.

Chris McAlilly 00:18
The book is called "Perfect Love: Recovering Entire Sanctification--The Lost Power of the

Methodist Movement." That's a little bit of a mouthful.

Eddie Rester 00:25 It's a lot of a mouthful.

Chris McAlilly 00:26
But here's the thing, what Kevin has is, he has a sense of expectation and desire for the grace of God to be at work in our lives in a way that would lead to healing and hope, maybe in ways that we haven't experienced or even expected.

Eddie Rester 00:45

I think one of the things in the conversation for me, just a reminder that as we enter into the journey of holiness, which is sanctification, with the work of the Holy Spirit, that it's not just about reminding us of what's wrong, where we failed, but there's something significant that God desires to do in us over the course of time in our lives, in our hearts, to bring healing and restoration. And sometimes we just get caught in this loop of, well, I did this wrong, I feel bad about that, or there's shame about this. And we never experience the freedom of growth and new life.

Chris McAlilly 01:19

I think that, you know, this is a podcast called The Weight. And I think the experience of being human is an experience that is heavy. And sometimes that means there's brokenness that we carry around or there's shame. Sometimes it means there's addictions that we have, or patterns of life that we just get stuck in or there's cycles that we feel like we're never going to be able to break out of. Sometimes when you come to the church with that stuff, what you hear is that you're a dirty, filthy rag, and that there's nothing that you can ever do to break out of that.

Eddie Rester 01:53 Do better.

Chris McAlilly 01:54
Yeah, exactly. And if you don't get there, it's like, there's just something in that milk ain't clean, is the way that my grandfather would have said it.

Eddie Rester 02:04
I don't know that I've heard that phrase. But thank you.

Chris McAlilly 02:06

There's just something something about it that's off. And what Kevin is offering is this powerful vision that he believes is biblical, and that is rooted in this particular tradition that we're part of, the Wesleyan Methodist tribe, that believes and, and hopes that God's grace can break through in such a way that we can be we can recover, that we can rehabilitate, and that we can be made new in a powerful way. What's different for Kevin now is that he used to be in a seminary, used to be teaching this from the ivory tower, and now he's come back to the local church.

Eddie Rester 02:46

And I think that was an important move for him. He's going to talk about that. But if today you're wondering does faith matter? Does my journey with Christ really matter? Is there anything to it? I think this conversation is going to help you with that question.

Chris McAlilly 03:03

If you're struggling between you know, you've been looking at different churches or different traditions, and you're trying to find like, I just don't know, everything kind of sounds different, weird. I'm just trying to find my way in. Hopefully this will help and be a place of orientation. And, you know, if you're interested in learning more, Kevin's book, I think is , and his writing in general, I think, is one of the places that I think you could find some orientation.

Eddie Rester 03:30
And very, very accessible writing. So enjoy the episode, let us know what you think.

Eddie Rester 03:36

[INTRO] Life can be heavy, we carry around with us the weight of our doubt, our pain, our suffering, our mental health, our family system, our politics. This is a podcast to create space for all of that.

Chris McAlilly 03:49

We want to talk about these things with humility, charity, and intellectual honesty. But more than that, we want to listen. It's time to open up our echo chamber. Welcome to The Weight. [END INTRO]

Chris McAlilly 04:04
We're here today with Kevin Watson. Kevin, thanks for being on the podcast.

Kevin Watson 04:07 Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Chris McAlilly 04:09 Glad to have you back.

Eddie Rester 04:10
You're one of our very few return guests. So you join an elite club.

Chris McAlilly 04:14 Very elite. Super elite.

Kevin Watson 04:16 The air is rare up here.

Chris McAlilly 04:18 Very.

Eddie Rester 04:19

That's right. Well, since the last time we talked to you, you have moved to the local church in Waco, Texas, First United Methodist Church there. Tell us about that move. What kind of instigated that--that move from the academic world and teaching and all the writing that you did back to the local church? What led you there?

Kevin Watson 04:42

Yeah, that's a great question. There was a just a kind of season I went through of feeling stronger and stronger kind of pull back to the church and a desire to connect to it and to lead within it. I was able to speak into the church from my position at Emory in a variety of ways, but that was so limited by the academic position and other ways, too, because I was anchored in just such a different context. And I think one of the things for me that I found myself feeling drawn to was, you know, do these ideas that I've been thinking about and writing about for so long, what does it look like to not just offer them sort of from the ivory tower, so to speak, but to work to see them be implemented on the ground at a particular faith community?

Kevin Watson 05:39

And the opportunity to come to Waco seemed providential, just in a variety ways. Conversations with Pastor Ryan Barnett were fruitful, and really encouraging and exciting. And we had a chance to attend worship at the church, and just kind of get a feel for the culture of the church and the people that were here, and all those things. But there was a variety of things happening. Some of them were just kind of personal, vocational discernment. I just had kind of a sense in my own spirit that doors were closing where I was, and I couldn't necessarily flush that out or describe that in empirical ways, but it was just kind of a sense of a shifting season.

Kevin Watson 06:30

And I also had a sense during that time that God was going to open a door and, and it would be surprising, what opened. And to be honest, like, at the end of the day, the door that did open was surprising in a way that itself was still surprising. Like it was initially kind of beyond like, oh, that's not at all what I was exactly thinking. But then it just really made a lot of sense. And the other piece for me was that the the work that was happening at Truett, at the Wesley House, was really interesting and fascinating to me, and so having the chance to be in the same town that Billy Abraham was in, and having the chance to just have a sort of place to connect.

Kevin Watson 07:13

So I'm affiliate Research Professor at Truett, and so I still had a place here where I could have kind of the academic part of my vocation, still kind of had a home and was located in a particular place. There aren't very many places where I could have been deeply anchored in the local church in the way that I am but still had been able to have connections to kind of consider and explore academic conversations. Obviously, having said that, since moving here, Billy, tragically and unexpectedly died. And so, that's changed things for me in certain respects. Grief can be complicated in a lot of ways. But I'm very much still in a season of grieving his death and just missing him as a really kind of a spiritual father. But also, I think sometimes grief, it's complication is the letting go of what might have been, you know. And so anyway, that's part of the story of what was happening.

Chris McAlilly 08:21
Yeah, I think for those who may not be deeply connected to a Methodist or Wesleyan world, Billy Abraham is kind of a, you know, one of these giants.

Eddie Rester 08:30 Giants, yeah.

Chris McAlilly 08:31

Theological giants, who offered the church, you know, incisive thinking and critique about about its life, but also kind of articulated a theological vision that was...

Eddie Rester 08:48 Hopeful.

Chris McAlilly 08:49

Hopeful for the future. And I think one of the things that had recently happened is that Billy had transitioned from Southern Methodist University to Truett seminary there in Waco, which is connected to Baylor. And so that that preceded your move, and I could see how that would have been incredibly exciting to get to be a part of kind of, you know, the creation of this ground-level Wesley House of study. Perhaps, you know, maybe talk a little bit about what the vision for that house is and kind of what is it that maybe still animates your hope?

Kevin Watson 09:29

Yeah, I think that the work that's happening at the Wesley Houst at Truett is hopeful. I think it's just a time where there's energy and excitement about new initiatives. I think what I see at Truett and what I see from Billy's legacy is a deep optimism for the way in which theological education is important for preparation of clergy, for ministry, but also in which it needs to be really closely anchored to the local church--be seen as something that above all else serves the church. That it's serving the church by kind of stewarding the people that the Lord has called to ministry and preparing and equipping them to come back to the church to serve as those who have been been called out and sent back.

Kevin Watson 10:19

And I think there's been been enthusiasm and excitement for Truett's track record in doing that well, but also for their hospitality and generosity and inviting Wesleyans into their space to be among their number and to give us space kind of within their number to study and to learn and to have really a kind of Orthodox evangelical ecumenical context, where the focus is primarily on preparing people for ministry in the church of Jesus Christ. So I think that's really kind of key piece to the enthusiasm. It's pretty simple and basic in that sense.

Kevin Watson 11:00

I also think that there's enough clarity of conviction and ideas there that there seems to be a helpful niche where the folks in the Texas Baptist Convention and more evangelical or orthodox Methodists really actually have a lot in common, enough in common, to have fruitful conversations when there is disagreement, so that they're actually kind of reading from the same book, so to speak. And I think that's really helpful.

Chris McAlilly 11:30

Yeah, I've wondered about kind of this broader... There's kind of... This is happening within the context of, I think, a broader, decade's long, reorientation or realignment of really American Protestantism more broadly. I wonder how you view that, Kevin? How do you think about that?

Kevin Watson 11:51

Yeah, I mean, there's, there's a lot happening. And I think there are some kind of interesting realignments and surprising alliances and so forth. I mean, it's funny, like I remember, a point in time where if someone, for example, was using a Beth Moore Bible study in the United Methodist Church, it was like, people really felt sort of guilty about that and didn't really want it to be known or something. And as as things have shifted and changed kind of on our side of the street, I think there's almost been sort of different ways of thinking about it. There are some folks that are unabashedly now kind of like fans of Beth Moore, because of her online presence and the way she has been so bold and kind of prophetic in key places in her world. That's, I think, drawn even more interest from parts of the evangelical Wesleyan family in particular, because she's such a strong female leader within the church. But then then there's others who I think would be even more like opposed to her.

Kevin Watson 12:53

So that's, for me, that's one kind of image of illustrating kind of how these things have shifted and kind of changed. And it's really complicated and really interesting, and that kind of wisdom and Providence of God to see the way some of these things are shaking out. But I think for us, kind of, at least what I see, what I'm excited about, the big piece of it is just kind of this sense of unapologetically in service to the church. That's kind of what it's about. It's not getting kind of lost in a sort of academic task that becomes kind of a rabbit trail that actually leads away from the church, but engaging the life of the mind and understanding the reason for the hope that we have within us as deeply and thoroughly as we can, but always coming back to that kind of core purpose.

Eddie Rester 13:50

I love that, "core purpose." Because you know, I loved my time in seminary. I still love engaging a lot of the books and things but as you say, sometimes they lead us on rabbit trails that really don't do much for the ministry in the local church, rooting in what's happening in the local church. As you've made the move back over the last three and a half months, I know a lot of your work has been done around discipleship and small groups and bands and the Wesleyan models of that. How have you begun to integrate some of that into your work and what's been people's response to maybe some of the ideas and the thoughts that you have brought there to the church in Waco?

Kevin Watson 14:36

Yeah, thank you for that. The first thing I would say is that both the culture of the church and the pastoral leadership have both been incredibly supportive, and that's been such a gift to me, especially the leadership of the Senior Pastor, Ryan Barnett. They have have never... I'm kind of an incense person. And I struggle with purity, like wanting to say something as correctly and strongly as it can be said, especially from a Christian standpoint. And in a lot of contexts I've been in, by leadership that's made people uncomfortable, like, there's a fear that it's going to be alienating to people in the pews, or that it will be divisive in some way, which I never intend. What I intend is just to preach the Gospel as unapologetically, uncompromisingly as I can, within my own limitations, and that's really been supported here. So the first thing that I've found that has been such a gift to me as I've come here with, honestly, a hunger for revival.

Kevin Watson 15:46

Like I want to see the Gospel taking root in people's lives all the way down, in every place where there's need for hope, or there's need for peace and joy, where there's need for healing. I want to see the Gospel having impact and making contact in every way possible. And I think one of my concerns or fears in the flesh coming here was that I would have to water down who I was and what I believed in the local church when I'm actually with the same people week after week, and I've actually found that they love me so well, and they're excited and eager to be pressed, to push after Christ, not to follow me, but to look for Jesus in every place they can in their lives.

Kevin Watson 16:39

More practically... So that's been kind of in the area of, like, we have a midweek that's eight weeks in the fall and in the spring, and I taught a midweek on real Methodism. And so in the teaching voice like that, or preaching sermons, I haven't held back, and the response has been encouraging to me, when I've had those chances. More pragmatically, I've really been, my first kind of thing that I've done has surprised me, to be honest. And that's been to really look at, like, we have a really strong culture of Sunday School here. And I've been trying to figure out how to take one of our marks of discipleship, as we talk about it at our church, is Biblical literacy. And so I've been trying to think through, how do we have an intentional system for helping people become Biblically literate, so that it's not just oh, we have lots of Sunday school classes, but how are we actually forming people and taking them through a process where if someone is a member of our church for a season, that we can actually expect that they'll have grown in confidence and competence that they are Biblically literate?

Kevin Watson 17:43

So we're gonna do a church wide study next year of the story, which is one approach to kind of introducing the meta narrative of Scripture, the sort of big overview, and that's going to, at all of our campuses, that's going to actually anchor the preaching on Sunday morning. But also, we're going to invite Sunday School teachers to participate and basically ask the whole church that if you're attending here, we really hope that you're going to also step into one of these Sunday School classes and stick with this for this season, so that our whole church will be on the same page andhave this confidence that we we actually know the story.

Kevin Watson 18:22

And then we're going to capture what we learned from that and have it be something that then repeats in the background, so that new members, new visitors, and so forth, or people who just weren't able to participate the first time around will have one class going forward every year weren't able to participate the first time around will have one class going forward every year that will go through the story. So that first piece of the puzzle of biblical literacy will now be in place in our discipleship system.

Kevin Watson 18:46

And for me, that's kind of what I've been trying to figure out, is the thing I've kept saying to our people is my assumption as one of your pastors is that people come to church because they want to grow in their faith. And part of what they're expecting the church to do is to show them how to grow in their faith. So my expectation is you're here because you want to grow. And that actually the burden is on me to help you figure out what the next right step is for you to grow from where you are currently. And so trying to kind of figure that out, how do we have a system.

Kevin Watson 19:21

So I've been playing with the image of you are here trying to... You know, when I was a kid, it was really cool to go to the mall--it's not as cool anymore--but you go to the mall and hang out and walk around and try to bump into friends and stuff. And there were always those kiosks or those signs that had the map of the mall, so if you wanted to find where like Spencer's was or something, you go to the map and it was easy to figure out where a store was, but it was hard to know where you were in relationship to the stores. You had to find that little sticker star that said "you are here," and that's what I'm trying to develop, is a system that helps people self diagnose like, here's where I am. So here's the step I have to take to get to where I want to go and try to actually have the things in place so that based on where you are, you can actually grow.

Kevin Watson 20:08

I mean, I've been in churches where people will talk about the need for community and connection, and then they'll invite people to join a small group, but they don't actually have small groups for people to join, which I think is like cruel and unusual punishment. And, like, you shouldn't tap into the need for community that people have, which is universal, if you don't actually have a way to address it. And so, yeah, go ahead.

Chris McAlilly 20:31

Yeah, what's interesting, I mean, this is an interesting way into the most recent book that you that you've written because it's kind of the highest rung. Entire sanctification is a book that you've, or it's a doctrine that's specific to Wesleyanism that you've written about recently, a book called "Perfect Love." I wonder if you could maybe just talk about why you're so deeply committed to this doctrine, why you think it's important, not just as an idea at the heart of Wesleyan theology in the way Wesleyans think about salvation? But why do you think it's also practical, and ultimately something that Christians can kind of find their way towards and kind of work and they can they can make themselves available to the grace of God in such a way that they begin to move up that ladder?

Eddie Rester 20:31

I was just gonna say one of the pastors I listened to one time talked about a lot of times, he used the image of a ladder. And he said, a lot of times, we have ladders, but we don't have any of the lower rungs. We just have higher end rungs, and so we don't have ways for people to actually climb on and begin their discipleship journey, whether that's a small group or biblical literacy, or any of those pieces. We just have the higher end rungs, where we assume people are, and we just don't allow people to begin that journey of growth.

Kevin Watson 22:00

Yeah, that's a great question. So the first thing for me is that it started when I was in seminary, and when I was in seminary, it felt like this very kind of postmodern experience where there were all these different options available. And it sort of felt like it was neutral, which one I picked, and so just sort of choose whatever I wanted. And I remember having an experience where I felt like, I came here because I was called to ministry in the church. And I think when I go back to the church, one of the things that I'm pretty sure I need to be able to do is make truth claims. And I was genuinely struggling with, like, how am I going to make truth claims if I'm unclear myself about which truth is the right one, which one I want to offer of the available options that I'm kind of seeing presented to me?

Kevin Watson 22:54

And for me, the way that I started working through that was by getting more particular, more specific. So I felt like, I know what I can do is make truth claims about what it means to be a Methodist. And you, of course, can actually still even problematize that. I mean, in the current moment, it's very much contested, but my way of engaging that was historically so what has it meant to be a Methodist? Who are the people who kind of founded the Methodist tradition? What did they say about what was essential to Methodism? And so, for me, the the first piece of why I think this is so important is because John Wesley, our kind of key founder himself, said that entire sanctification is the grand deposit. And so it's like the major thing that God has put into Methodism. And Wesley said towards the end of his life in this letter, that it was the main reason that God had raised us up.

Kevin Watson 23:46

And so that was a big piece of it, was just wanting to say if you're United Methodist or a member of many other Wesley traditions to be ordained, someone has to actually say that they expect to be made perfect in love in this life and they're earnestly striving after it. And those questions aren't like, what you think. They are questions that the answer is yes. Like, you're supposed to say yes, by the grace of God. If you say no, that should be disqualifying from ordination. And so we're in this tradition where every single elder in the United Methodist Church has said to the covenant community, but more importantly to the Lord, that they believe this, that they expect this to happen.

Kevin Watson 23:46

So, Wesley, after seeing the Methodist revival for 40, 50 years, his conclusion is that the Holy Spirit breathed life into this thing, brought it to life primarily to preach, teach and proclaim this grand, audacious optimism that God's grace saves to the uttermost. So that's the first thing for me is just like, I think it's foundational for who we are. And I've written two books really out of a sense of conviction that the the Lord was saying, "You're supposed to write this down." And this is one of those two, and it really came out of this particular burden that it would really be a missed opportunity in this kind of time of shifting in Methodism and realignment and so forth, if there was never even a conversation about the doctrine of entire sanctification, like, if it wasn't even ever really wrestled with.

Kevin Watson 25:25

But on the other hand, it kind of looks like we've perjured ourselves, because it doesn't actually look like there's a groaning after or a real expectation that this is... I haven't seen it, I'll just say, from my experience, I haven't seen much evidence of elders groaning after entire sanctification, much less testifying to having received it, and so wanting to lift that up. But the other piece, more basic, that probably a lot of your listeners will resonate with more is that I think that entire sanctification is Biblical. I think that it is what Scripture teaches. And my sort of anchor has been the Bible and trying to understand what it says, what it teaches, what does it offer and allowing reality for me as a Christian to be defined above all else, by the teaching of Scripture and what it says.

Kevin Watson 26:13

And there are a number of places. Chapter seven of the book walks through, you know, it's a simple and non academic, but just kind of introduction to some of the things the Scriptures teach about holiness. But, you know, to me, like one of the key passages is First Thessalonians four, verse three says, "it is God's will that you'd be sanctified." So Paul's making a claim that it's not his will, it's not somebody else's will, it's just going straight to God. It's God's will that you'd be sanctified. And then First Thessalonians 5:23 and 24, says, "May the God of peace, sanctify," the NRSV says, "entirely," sanctify you entirely. Other translations say completely, or through and through, but it's... So even the language is derived from the original Greek translations, which are saying something like, entire sanctification, not partial or incomplete sanctification. And then it concludes by saying, God is faithful, and he himself will do this.

Kevin Watson 27:15

Well, why? Well, because I can't make myself that good. Well, did you get this far in your own strength? Because if that's true, it's good news that we've uncovered that and exposed that, because then we can say, that's actually not how any of this works. And so I think it actually in a sense calls you back to the beginning of the story, and the desperate need that we have for the grace of God, to do in us and through us and for us what we can't do for ourselves. And so for me, it's it's really hopeful in that sense, too.

So we don't entirely sanctify ourselves, but God does. So I think it's biblical. I also think that, as I've wrestled with this more and more of myself, part of why I sort of am captured by this is that I think that for so many contemporary Christians, even though everybody knows that justification is by faith, salvation is by faith and not by works, we actually are still really engaged in a self-help, self-improvement plan, and so people are becoming as good as they can in their own strength. And I think there's actually something about lifting up a goal to a place where it shatters that illusion that you can do it in yourself. Everybody seems to instinctively kind of be like, well, I can't be entirely holy. And so it kind of starts to then hold up. Like, it exposes the assumptions underneath your Christian faith at the outset.

Eddie Rester 28:43

And that's really interesting that you talk about it exposes if you really hold it up. It really does expose that mentality of you know, it's almost part of the American experiment of rugged individualism: I can overcome. I can fix. I can solve. Which is so much woven into our consciousness, I think, as Americans, but the Gospel makes a different claim, which is, you're saved by grace. And then entire sanctification is really, are you opening yourself to be made fully holy, fully complete, in the eyes of Christ and by the work of the Holy Spirit? How is our idea as Methodists and Wesleyans, in your mind, different from maybe the conception of folks from the reformed tradition or the Baptist tradition?

Kevin Watson 29:38

Yeah, I think that it's really important to say that all Christians believe in holiness because it's so obviously scriptural, right? So there's not like, it's not like our tradition is like the one that's-- and I'm not saying you're saying this. I'm just clarifying, because I think denominational leaders have sometimes unintentionally implied that we have this as, like, a distinctive. I do think our distinctive is that we press the logic all the way to its logical conclusion in a way that other traditions haven't done as directly.

Kevin Watson 30:11

So I think that the reformed tradition has tended to just be more chastened by the problem of sin and has seen that the complete solution and sort of healing happens either right before death, or on the other side. Like, this sort of total healing can't happen in this life because of the fall. And I think that the place where Wesleyans tend to press more is really kind of at the point of the resurrection and the ascension. At least, this is how I challenged students when I was teaching was, you know, you're going to have to decide ultimately, in your theology, what is more powerful in the lives of those who are in Christ? So for those who have been covered by the blood of Jesus, who has been raised from the dead and sits at the right hand of God the Father, is it necessary for those to live in sin? Or is the power of what Jesus has done already for them so powerful that it actually means that sin is no longer inevitable or necessary in their lives? It's actually possible that they can not sin.

Kevin Watson 30:11

And one of the things I talked about in the book a little bit, that I think is probably most would be like, most controversial to contemporary readers is that Wesley actually defines justification and new birth as the place where you have freedom from outward sin. It's actually not in Christian perfection or entire sanctification. For that exact reason, like, when you have been forgiven in part and then born again, the power of sin is broken in a real way so that there's no necessity of sin anymore. And then he thinks if you commit outward sin, that you've transgressed on that justification and pardon.

Kevin Watson 32:06

And that's why there's this role, and this is another place where there's a difference with like, other Christian traditions, but there's this dynamic process where you actually can backslide and lose progress that's been gained and so forth. But there's a deep cleansing in our affections that happens, so that we're actually freed to love God and to love neighbor, to the exclusion of sin, to the exclusion of unholy outward actions, but also unholy tempers, unholy inward feelings and dispositions. Like, we can stop hating people in our hearts and stop lusting after other people or lusting for control, and so on and so forth.

Chris McAlilly 32:49

You know, I appreciate the desire, and I guess I see this in your scholarship across the board and this desire to work out the claims of the faith from the inside to define, to as much as possible, to shape your view and the view of the people that you're teaching, their views of reality, in light of Scripture, defined by scripture, and the historic teachings of the faith. I think, inevitably, though, there is a sense in which the folks that come to church, myself included, have also been discipled and formed and shaped by the culture, not least the mall, you know, and global capitalism. And then also a range of different ways of thinking about what human beings are and how they move about the world.

Chris McAlilly 33:51

I'm thinking about, particularly, kind of one of the frames of reference that I think a lot of people in contemporary American culture have, is driven by something that Brene Brown, who is a TED talk, social worker.

Eddie Rester 34:08
Who has her own Netflix special.

Chris McAlilly 34:11

Yeah, has her own Netflix special, and she talks a lot about the gifts of imperfection and the ways in which we ought to embrace our imperfection. I know that she's coming out of a different discourse and a different frame of reference. And there's not a one to one comparison. But I wonder kind of how you think about that. How do you intersect with... How does what you're talking about intersect with some of these larger kind of cultural narratives that are out there?

Kevin Watson 34:39

Yeah, well, I want to say first that it's been a minute since I've read Brene Brown's work. I've read a few of her books. And when I read them, I remember for the most part, liking them and thinking that she was making some really helpful and important contributions, primarily in the area of engaging shame and really, you know, hopefully neutralizing it, and showing up for struggle and struggling well in your own life, but also in relationships with other people. And I think there's an important contribution there.

Kevin Watson 35:13

I don't think I've actually read--I believe what you refer to is the title of a book she's written, "The Gifts of Imperfection," which I don't think I've read that one. But I think that I like the way that she kind of calls for and calls forth authenticity and vulnerability. I think that's a strength and something that's in sync with the Wesleyan understanding of the Christian vision. we have. I think, through, like, our vision for social holiness and small group formation, the way in which the Christian life is to be lived with others. There's a very similar, I think, kind of approach there, where you're being asked to show up, right, to get in the arena, which she loves that Teddy Roosevelt quote.

Kevin Watson 36:02

And I think there's some places where her message has resonated deeply within this cultural moment, in a way that the Wesleyan message speaks to as well. I think that for me, the the place where I don't, you know, I'd have to hear from her the extent to which she disagreed with the Wesleyan vision on this, but the place where I just want to make sure the Wesleyan vision is lifted up and is prominent is that we don't sort of bless brokenness, because we believe that God is able and willing to bring transformation and is able to bring hope and healing.

Kevin Watson 36:44

And so one of the images that I've toyed with for helping to explain what I think is at stake is thinking about the Christian life as akin to addiction. So it's like actual addiction, and that everyone is addicted to the ways of sin and death, like, you know, truly addicts, that we try as hard as we might, we sin and that continually. And that the need then is a kind of like recovery process in the same way that someone who's an alcoholic needs to experience recovery. And that requires a profound humility and vulnerability and authenticity. It requires getting to a place where you recognize that this has a power over you that you don't have over it. And so you have to surrender and look to a higher power as 12 Step talks about which, you know, for Wesleyans and all Christians is Jesus.

Kevin Watson 37:41

And so you, you look to Jesus. But the reason that that's helpful for me is that addicts don't need only forgiveness, because they know what it is to be forgiven and then transgress again, and be forgiven and transgress again, and they know there comes a point where you can't just keep being forgiven over and over again, but that at some point, you're going to actually have to change or the relationship is going to be irreparably damaged. And I think that the language of addiction, for me anyway helps to show that if you actually think that sin is a real problem, what you need is not only forgiveness, but you also need healing. And the same way that if you think you're really addicted, you need not just to be forgiven from the ways that your addiction has really hurt people in the past, but you need to actually be restored so that you're able to find a freedom from acting out in those ways that you've acted out in the past.

Kevin Watson 38:42

And I think it's encouraging to me and hopeful for me, because it also is a way of expressing that the ground is level at the foot of the cross, that everyone struggles. Everyone is in the same sort of position before the Lord even though some of us may have more socially unacceptable ways of you know, sinning and being exposed as sinners, especially now in the kind of cancel culture moment. You know, at the foot of the cross, people that have been canceled are there and so are the people who have canceled others and people who have have sinned sort of notoriously and people who have lived sort of socially respectable lives but have murdered people in their hearts their whole lives and have been bitter and angry or have been selfish and self centered and so on and so forth.

Kevin Watson 39:35

And I think that's for me, that's a helpful way of kind of framing how this is important and universally applicable to everyone and then it goes beyond the gift of imperfection as a gift if it leads to transformation. You know, if it leads to an openness and a vulnerability and humility that calls forth and seeks out more, and the one who can provide it being outside of myself being other than me.

Chris McAlilly 40:05

Yeah, there are two things that I'm thinking about, as you say that. There's a, I have a couple friends who are in churches and other traditions, and they are frustrated because they're getting to a place in their own faith where I think they intuit or they have the sense that there is something more to the Christian life than what's being offered. But what what ends up happening in the preaching and teaching in these particular contexts is that, you know, whether it's intended by the preachers and teachers in these contexts, or whether this is just what they're hearing, what they're hearing is that they are and will always be dirty, filthy rags. That's the language that they've offered.

Kevin Watson 40:49 Yeah.

Chris McAlilly 40:50
I think what they long for is a vision that would allow for recovery to be real recovery and healing to be real healing.

Kevin Watson 41:00 That's right.

Eddie Rester 41:00 To go somewhere.

Chris McAlilly 41:01

And for rehabilitation or regeneration to be very real. And that, in fact, like, what they're looking for is more hope for their humanity, not because of, you know, where they've been or what they've struggled with, but because of who God is and what God can do in their lives. And I think.

Kevin Watson 41:18 Yep.

Chris McAlilly 41:19
What I want to tell them is, like, read some Wesley, come on, come hang out with us

Methodists for a little while. Come on.

Kevin Watson 41:25 That's right.

Chris McAlilly 41:26

The other thing that I think about is just the way in which the recovery community offers Wesleyans, and not just Wesleyans, but kind of all Christians, an opportunity to think deeply about, I guess the athletic endeavor that is working out our salvation through time. We inherited, when Edie and I came to this particular church, a lot of recovery meetings every day, you know, noon and evening. And over the course of time, we've tried to find different ways of integrating the Sunday morning worshipping congregation and the weekday meeting crowd.

Eddie Rester 42:10 Congregation.

Chris McAlilly 42:11

Yeah, it's a congregation. There is a kind of rigorous honesty in those rooms that is akin to what I think we would desire in small group meetings, but we often don't quite get there. And so just finding ways to make, I don't know, to kind of find points of connection, I think, are really helpful. And what I've never thought about until you said it is just the the way in which humanity, myself included, is addicted to, you know, the patterns of sin and death and what is needed is a group of people to walk through recovery and healing with through time.

Eddie Rester 42:54

I guess what I'd ask is, so for folks who are out there thinking, Gosh, I'd like to pursue that, I'd like to groan for entire sanctification. What does that journey look like? What are maybe the key components for us of that journey?

Chris McAlilly 43:11
How do you receive it? That's the way you put it in the book.

Eddie Rester 43:11 There you go. Yeah.

Kevin Watson 43:12

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think the sort of Wesleyan answer to that is that you wait on God to give you the gift through the means of grace. And so you worship with the community of faith, you practice the means of grace of reading scripture, prayer, fasting. And I think part of what this does is when you have greater expectation, the means of grace are engaged in a different way. It's not just like a sleepyhead moment of mumbling a prayer or reading scripture--which is not to denigrate that. That's actually, Wesley also says, like, do these things when they feel powerful, and when they're sort of drudgery, like you just you do them because God promises to meet us there. And many of the times there's formation and transformation that's happening that doesn't feel like a watershed moment to us, but it's still real formation.

Kevin Watson 44:08

But, you know, I think when you're really pursuing the heart of God and this sort of audacious vision, it does, I think kind of like, add extra to this kind of pursuit, so it's pursued with a greater intentionality and perhaps intensity. I also think that in that you have a reliance on community. So I think the band meeting is particularly important here. It's sort of paradoxical in a way that if you really want to experience real, deep holiness and deep transformation, one of the things you have to do is actually start to confess sin to other people, to tell the truth about your lack of holiness and your need for holiness. And that can be a really difficult and and challenging thing to do because it's so humbling and it's so counter cultural.

Kevin Watson 45:00

But once you kind of get in that deep water with a handful of other people, it also is like it's initially painful, in my experience, but then it's also kind of a relief. Like, okay, we've all taken our masks off. And now we know what the work is that's before us to do and the places where, you know, we need to take responsibility for what we can take responsibility for, and where we need to cry out to God to do what only He can do.

Chris McAlilly 45:29

One of the things that you say in the prologue of "Perfect Love" is that "In the pages to come, I'm going to do everything I can to convince you that there is more to the Christian life than you may have experienced or even expected." I think that I've seen you do this in a number of contexts that you're trying to hold out a vision of the Christian life that may be more than folks have experienced or even expected. Thank you for doing that. And we offer our prayers and blessing upon you as you attempt to do that on the ground, in a local church with a group of people. They're lucky to have you and I know that it's a gift for you to be to be among them as well. So thank you so much, Kevin, for joining us today.

Kevin Watson 46:18
Thank you for having me. It's great to be with you all.

Eddie Rester 46:20
[OUTRO] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, the best way to help us is to like, subscribe, or leave a review.

Chris McAlilly 46:29

If you would like to support this work financially or if you have an idea for a future guest, you can go to theweightpodcast.com. [END OUTRO]