Deconstruction | “With Fear and Trembling” with Dave Stovall
Show Notes:
In this episode of our series on deconstruction, guest Dave Stovall explains what deconstruction means to him: examining your faith, studying scripture, and pulling out all the parts that aren’t Biblically sound--the parts of faith that come to us from popular culture, from our families, from our friends--and then building your faith back up on a much stronger foundation. It’s less about starting from a blank slate and more about reforming and reframing what’s already there.
Dave brings a unique perspective to this topic with his extensive history in the Christian music scene. He is currently the Musical Director at Harpeth Christian Church in Franklin, TN, and he was also a bass player for the Christian rock band Audio Adrenaline (2015-2017) and the lead vocalist of Wavorly. He is a contributor at renew.org, a network of Christian leaders that helps equip disciple makers and church planters of all backgrounds.
Resources:
Follow Dave on social media:
https://www.facebook.com/wavorlydave
https://www.instagram.com/davewstovall/
Read more from Dave:
https://renew.org/losing-my-faith-in-progressive-christianity-part-1/
Listen:
Transcript:
Eddie Rester 00:00 I'm Eddie Rester.
Chris McAlilly 00:01
I'm Chris McAlilly. Welcome to The Weight.
Eddie Rester 00:03 Today, our guest is Dave Stovall. Dave has been involved in contemporary Christian music. He played with Audio Adrenaline. He is a worship leader at Harpeth Christian in Franklin, Tennessee.
Chris McAlilly 00:15
It was a good conversation. We're in a series on deconstruction, and Dave's got a particularly, I don't know, kind of an interesting, his own take on what that is.
Eddie Rester 00:24
And he bases it on his own journey, which is a long journey that really for him started in college, moved throughout his time in the Christian music industry, and eventually led him back to the church in what he calls a more historic version of the faith than where he was at a different point in his life.
Chris McAlilly 00:45
It's a journey through conversations with multiple denominations, conservative Christians, progressive Christianity, lots of different authors that he references through all of it. And it really is, I think the thing that I was thinking about through the conversation was how, sometimes what we think or what we feel can either lead us, perhaps, astray, or it can be something that we doubt or mistrust. But I think the thrust of it is if you get to a point where you're not feeling anything, or maybe the language that you've utilized, as kind of orienting for you in a conversation about faith, when that stuff breaks down, that's not necessarily the end of the story.
Eddie Rester 01:33
Or a bad part of the story. It can be the best part of the story, because it can lead you to a place of renewed faith and a depth of faith. And so there's a lot in this. If you're in that moment, I think there's gonna be a lot in this story that can speak to you. If you have a friend or a family member right now that's just cycling through doubt and confusion about faith, maybe beginning to throw off pieces of their faith that they see as unnecessary, here's some, I think, some great instruction and hope for you as well.
Chris McAlilly 02:07
I think the main thing is not to do this kind of deep, hard faith work alone.
Eddie Rester 02:13 Correct.
Chris McAlilly 02:14
And I think that that's not just faith work. I think it's easy sometimes when you feel like perhaps the Christian culture that you grew up in, maybe you don't feel as at home in that environment. I think, you know, one of the things that he seems to advocate is just not doing hard, serious faith, work alone, right? Don't explore doubt by yourself, find a good group of people or even a good friend or two to be honest with. Be honest with yourself before God and with at least one other person. That was one of the things that he said that was really good.
Eddie Rester 02:49
And to find someone who's mature, wiser, and maybe older than you as well, on the journey.
Chris McAlilly 02:53
This fine relationship with you, Eddie it is wonderful.
Eddie Rester 02:58
Yeah. Hey, before we launch you off into the podcast, one quick show note that we want to make sure that you are aware of and praying about. At the end of June, Chris and I have served together in Oxford for eight years, and at the end of June, I will move to another church in Jackson, Mississippi, at Christ United Methodist Church. But the good news in that Chris is...
Chris McAlilly 03:20 That Eddie is leaving me.
Eddie Rester 03:22 Wow.
Chris McAlilly 03:22 I'm sorry.
Eddie Rester 03:25
That's just pain, right? That's your pain.
Chris McAlilly 03:27
That's pain. I'm speaking out of place of grief and denial. But here's the thing, it's gonna be good. Because we're gonna let Eddie stay on as a part of the podcast.
Eddie Rester 03:37
They're gonna let me stay on as the co-host. So anyway, I will stay on. But we just wanted to let y'all know just a little bit about that.
Chris McAlilly 03:45
No, we love doing this. I mean, the truth it's a joy. And, you know, this has been part of our work together, but it's also a part of our friendship. And we look forward to continuing that together and working together on this in the future. So we're glad you're a part of the journey on The Weight. And we hope that you stick with us even after Eddie moves.
Eddie Rester 04:10 Enjoy the podcast today.
Eddie Rester 04:16
[INTRO] Life can be heavy. We carry around with us the weight of our doubt, our pain, our suffering, our mental health, our family system, our politics. This is a podcast that creates space for all of that.
Chris McAlilly 04:26
We want to talk about these things with humility, charity, and intellectual honesty. But more than that, we want to listen. It's time to open up our echo chamber. Welcome to The Weight. [END INTRO]
Eddie Rester 04:42
We're here today with Dave Stovall. Dave, thank you for joining us today.
Dave Stovall 04:47
Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me on guys.
Eddie Rester 04:50
Yeah, we were talking right before before Cody hit the record button that you were in Audio Adrenaline, but not the Audio Adrenaline that I listened to back in the late 90s, early 2000s. But you were a part of the group... When were you a part of the group?
Dave Stovall 05:07
I was around 2014 to 2018. So I was a huge fan back in the 90s. Myself, man, like, their album "Bloom" changed my life. It was so good. So I went from being a fan and being a kid in youth group who had a youth pastor who wouldn't allow us to listen to Audio Adrenaline tapes on youth trips to being the guy on the stage playing "Ocean Floor." And I was like, this is nuts! This is so cool!
Eddie Rester 05:36
Now, you were part of the Christian music scene before that, though. I mean, another band you toured with and kind of,
Dave Stovall 05:42 Yes.
Eddie Rester 05:42
... did that for a long time.
Dave Stovall 05:44
I was the lead singer for Waverly. And we kind of launched that out of Tupelo, Mississippi. And that's how I knew Mark Stewart and Willow McGinnis was we started out as a punk band called Freshman 15. You know, the weight you gain in college, right? And, you know, we just, we hit the ground running and started doing shows around the country as much as we could. And we eventually ended up in Nashville. We snuck into the Gospel Music Awards, and we dropped our demos in all the little gift baskets that went out all the industry people. And, you know, we got some attention that way from Mark and Will and TobyMac actually was looking at us, too.
Dave Stovall 06:23
But, Mark and Will sign us today record label Flicker Records. At that moment, they were in that they just sold Flicker to Providence. And so they were like, "Listen, if you ever want to change your name, if you ever can picture yourself, being a 45-year-old guy in a band called Freshman 15." He said "You might want to change your name." So he changed it to Waverly and, you know, released an album and a half through that. But what a cool ride that was to be involved with Mark and Will--your heroes helping you develop your record and do the similar stuff that they did, for people like me, you know, when I was growing up, so that was super cool.
Dave Stovall 07:00
But that's really how I got into Audio A because Waverly broke up. And, you know, every time that I hit a dead end with music, I like to tell God that I'm done. I'm like, "God, I'm done writing songs. I'm not gonna do it anymore." And he's like, "That's really funny, because I got this thing right around the corner you don't know about." But Mark and Will remembered me and they asked me to come on, and be in the band. That was really cool, really special time in my life.
Chris McAlilly 07:26
Part of the reason why we wanted to talk today is because of a series of articles or posts that you made on a website called Renew. And it was kind of a talking about your faith journey. I wonder if maybe you could kind of sketch that out for folks, the early part of your journey, not the whole thing, just kind of how you ended up kind of becoming a person of faith and kind of how you got into the church.
Dave Stovall 07:53
Okay, yeah, absolutely. So, my family is made up of Christian musicians. And you know, family get togethers are always really hilarious because we all ended up singing songs in like four part harmony or jammin drums and having a drum off and stuff like that. But you know, from the time I was born, my family were church-goin' Christians, and I grew up in the Southern Baptist Church. And I just knew early on that I wanted to be a Christian, you know, I wanted to be like my family. And I love church. I love God and I know Jesus died for me, I want to do that.
Dave Stovall 08:31
But actually, you know, this was like back when they had revival preachers come and stuff. We had a revival preacher come, and I was six years old. And I was like, "This is it. I'm gonna be a Christian now." And I walked down the aisle, I'm so excited. And we went to the back room, and he was trying to get me to say the Sinner's Prayer, and I couldn't do it. And he would kind of lead me on and then, you know, let me try to finish, and I couldn't do it. And I remember distinctly him looking at my parents. And he shook his head, and he was like, "He's not ready." I was like, "Dang." I just, I want to be Christian so bad.
Dave Stovall 09:04
And then about two years later, I kind of had that feeling again. I think it might have been a Vacation Bible School or something. And I do the typical walk the aisle, Sinner's Prayer--which I knew by heart by that time--so I was like, I'm gonna do it this time. I'm going to show that revival preacher guy thatI am a Christian. I got baptized later, and continued to grow up in the Southern Baptist Church, but God really stirred my heart a lot through music like DC Talk, Audio Adrenaline, Skillet, and Bleach, you know, bands like that. And I would go to these youth camps, and it's just a little bit different, you know, going to a youth camp than it was being at a traditional First Baptist Church that I was at. People lifting their hands in worship and praising God, and they were just kind of like reckless abandon before the Lord. And I wanted that. I wanted to be like that. And so I like to think when I would come back from those things that would be the kid sitting in the front row. It was the 90s. I had my fingernails painted. I was wearing my gencos and my bleached hair and I had purple contacts. Very strange kid, not a lot of friends.
Eddie Rester 10:15
You weren't a Steven Curtis Chapman, Michael W. Smith kind of...
Dave Stovall 10:18
No, absolutely not. I'm like, man, give me something that sounds like Kurt Cobain, but about the Lord. So I was just on fire for God. But I was just such a weird person. And I think back to that, I'm like, I wonder what the church leaders thought about me. Like, was I a thorn in their side? Because they were like, "Man, he's just getting a little crazy with the Holy Spirit and wanting to sing Jars of Clay songs on stage. But he is really on fire for God, I don't know what to do." But God really used those years to form me into a leader in the youth group, and I just really came out of my shell.
Dave Stovall 10:55
You know, there was a time in my teenage years, because, you know, when you're six, and when you're eight, there's so much that you know about God. And I think I look at that as the beginning of my journey with God. But in my teenage years, I wondered if it was real. Did I say the Sinner's Prayer right? Did I really mean it when I said those words? I wasn't sure. And so I hit my knees on my bedroom floor, I think I was around 14 or 15 years old, and I prayed again, and I said, Lord, I know that I've asked you to be my savior, but I really want you to be Lord of my life from this day forward. And at that moment is really when things started to change for me, and God brought me out of my shell and turned me into that really, really weird youth that was on fire for the Lord and leading his youth group by example. That was really kind of where all that really kind of came together for me, was in my teenage years.
Eddie Rester 11:51
And then you write some great articles, if people want to read them on renew.org. I'm sure they're in the show notes for you. But you really mentioned that during your college years, things began to change for you. You began to engage faith maybe in a different way. You were beginning to ask some questions that you hadn't asked before, say a little bit about that moment, then I want us to kind of bridge and talk a little bit just about how that fits in to what I think a lot of folks are experiencing right now.
Dave Stovall 12:20
Yeah, so I just remember this moment, like, you know, I came to college and I wasn't quite living out my faith like I had been in my teenage years. Like, I just wanted to be bad a little bit. You know, I was like, I want to do bad stuff, I guess, because I've always been a goody-two- shoes. I got to Northeast Mississippi Community College and I met my friend, he's still my best friend today, Matt. And, you know, I was like, "Man, I just want to meet some girls." And he goes, "Hey, come to the Baptist Student Union. There's tons of girls there." I went there, and God really got a hold of my heart again, and started moving in my life. And, you know, I was writing songs for him. And I remember just really that really sweet time of just feeling his presence and being on fire for God during that time.
Dave Stovall 13:09
And then I guess it was maybe two, three years after that, there was this place I used to go that I would pray, just to be alone with God and just be in nature. And I went there, and I was looking at the sky. I was looking up at the moon, and something was different. Where I had always felt this closeness of God's Spirit, I just couldn't feel him. And it was almost kind of like this weird realization of like, man, this is real. Everything around me I'm looking at is so real. But I cannot feel God and I just don't know that he's there. I don't have the certainty anymore. And I went home, or back to my dorm, and just really wrestled with that.
Dave Stovall 13:54
I just couldn't reconcile it because I was like, I'm not living in this ongoing sin. You know, I'm doing the right things and in Bible studies and I'm leading praise and worship. I'm doing all the right things, God, where are you? That started really kind of unraveling my faith a little bit. And I had previously committed to being a summer missionary, announced it to everybody, "I want to go be a summer missionary and go spread the gospel and Phoenix, Arizona." And I went out there but the whole time internally I just doubted. I was like, am I even really a Christian? I don't know anymore. And I honestly don't know if God's really even there because I can't really hear him or feel him.
Dave Stovall 14:42
I remember being at church and in worship services. And I'm like, I feel like I'm the only person in the back here standing still, my hands in my pockets because I'm just completely debilitated. So I was out there in Arizona wrestling with that and I said the Sinner's Prayer, like, 100 million times probably that summer. But it was like I would have these little glimpses. Like I was laying on a driveway--and I don't think that you should do this all the time, but in this particular instance, it really, I really believe that God did this for me. And I was just like, "God, just give me a sign for real," and I had asked that like 100 times before this. But I asked that, and this giant shooting star went across the sky. And then I go back into the guest home that we're staying at, and I'm just crying out to the Lord, and I can feel him again. His presence literally felt like he was holding me. And the next day it was gone.
Dave Stovall 15:34
And then I just would go serve and, you know, lead these Vacation Bible School things, and then just feel kind of empty and lost. And then another little blip on the radar would happened. We were hiking up this hill in Sedona, I think, and we were this couple we were staying with, and we get to the top and we're looking out over the city and the wind's blowing real crazy. And just kind of unprompted, this lady just goes, "You know, in my 20s I really kind of lost the feeling of God and I just couldn't feel him anymore." And I hadn't told her one single thing about this. I was too scared to tell anybody. And she just basically recited my story. She called it the dark night of the soul. She couldn't feel God's presence, but she knew that he was there. And she said, "And one day, my faith just kind of came back, and I haven't felt that way anymore." And it was just like this really like, special moment for me and stuff like that just kind of kept happening.
Dave Stovall 16:29
One thing I skipped over was that when I first had this feeling back in college, there were a couple of guys that I tried to bring it up to guys who went to the Baptist Student Union with me. And I just felt totally shut down and a little shamed, I guess. They were like, man, if you're doubting your salvation then something's really wrong with you, you know, there's something really going on there. And I just didn't really know who else I could talk to, so I just locked it up and never talked about it. So those moments in Arizona, God's presence, and all that stuff just really meant the world to me.
Dave Stovall 17:05
And it finally clicked in my head when I read this line in Screwtape Letters, where Wormwood is talking to the demon-in-training--I hope that the audience has read that book, or they're gonna think that's really weird whatI just said. It's a fictional book by CS Lewis, you should read it. But it talks about an older demon training up a young demon on how to get a Christian off course. And the older demon says, "There's nothing more dangerous than when a Christian looks around and sees no evidence of God, hears no evidence of God, feels no evidence of God, but continues to obey Him. And I was like, oh, my gosh, this is what's happening to me. Because I'm not purposely trying to leave the Lord. I'm not living out this double lifestyle. I'm seeking God in prayer and scripture, and I'm obeying Him, but I still don't feel him like I did. And it dawned on me that God was trying to teach me something. He was trying to teach me on how to not lean on my feelings and my emotions to determine whether or not he was real, or determine whether or not his love for me and His sacrifice for me was real. So that was really kind of a hard lesson to learn there in your 20s on your own in that way.
Chris McAlilly 18:22
I appreciate you sharing that. I think that there's an echo of that in so many people's experience that I've come across through the years. I think that depending on, you know, folks who grew up in church circles or Christian circles, depending on the cultural context, or the particular church that you're a part of there are always, say the right words in the right way at the right time. And that is going to do the trick. Or feel the right feelings in the right moment in the right way. And somehow that is the thing.
Chris McAlilly 18:57
But I think there's something profound about getting to a place where the words are important, you know, and having emotions and feelings at times can be very important. And yet, there is a way in which God can be there or be present with someone in the midst of emotionlessness or not feeling like you have the right words, or whatever, you know.
Dave Stovall 19:25 Exactly.
Chris McAlilly 19:26 Yeah.
Dave Stovall 19:27
I saw this, I forget who this person is, but they just make fun of worship leaders and stuff.
Eddie Rester 19:35
We like to make fun of Cody. And so I'm looking forward to hearing this.
Dave Stovall 19:40
Well, with worship leaders there's quite a bit of material to make fun of us, but the guy was on stage going, like, "Come on, clap your hands guys! I said CLAP YOUR HANDS!" Like they're not doing it, you know. And then at the end of it, he says, "God, we just thank you so much, because we asked you to bring your presence down here and you came down and gave us chills." I busted out laughing because I picture that was God's point, you know, "I'm gonna come down there and give this person chills and that person chills," and it's like, man, it's so funny because, you know, my 20s that's what I thought was God, right? Like, that's the Holy Spirit. That's a sign of the Holy Spirit.
Dave Stovall 20:18
But then you realize later on in life, you're like, man, the sign of the Holy Spirit is a transformed life. If you're able to walk in truth and in the light and say no to sin, and you know what I'm saying, like, that's the sign of the Holy Spirit there. But the chill bumps are like a bonus. So when I finally came back around with God, and God, you know, was kinda like done teaching me that lesson for that moment, the first time that I felt chills in worship again was like heaven. I was like, man, this is great. It was almost like this voice was like, you know, "you don't need any of that." All that stuff is cherry on top. You know, it's great feeling. It's great to feel that, but I feel chill bumps when I listen to Coldplay. That doesn't mean that Coldplay's full of the Holy Spirit. It moves me emotionally. But if we can get to a place where we obey God and continue to seek him out, even if we don't feel like it, then that's a pretty powerful place to be.
Chris McAlilly 21:17
What lessons do you think are there for folks who lead churches, lead worship, you know, because I do think, like, there is this sense in which if you're a pastor, or if you're a leader, or worship leader, you put in work, you've done your stuff, and you want somebody to have an experience or an encounter of something. And yet, I don't know, there's a kind of recognition there that you can't manufacture it. You can't force it.
Dave Stovall 21:48
Yeah. Did you ask what's the lesson for worship leaders?
Chris McAlilly 21:53
Yeah, I just wonder, yeah, I wonder how you think about that. What do you think is the
takeaway, if you're in a leadership position?
Dave Stovall 22:02
Man, that it's out of your control. There's so much stuff that we can do in discipling people, in helping them along and helping build up their faith, but at the end of the day, it's like nothing that I do--and I tell that to my worship team every single Sunday, you know, we practice our hardest so that, you know, we can play these parts as flawless as we can, so that we can become transparent, so that nobody's looking at us in one way or the other. Meaning, you know, "y'all are really terrible and I can't stop listening to y'all." Or "Oh, my gosh, that was so good. I can't stop listening to y'all." I'm trying to be as transparent as it can be. And I'm also discipling our church every single Sunday morning. The things that I say, you know, if I'm quoting scripture, or sharing a story, or just encouraging them, like, let yourself loose in the presence of God.
Dave Stovall 23:01
You know, the church I'm leading at is a Christian church. And a lot of our people there are Church of Christ background, Baptist background. We have some Catholic background, so a little more not as expressive in worship as how I am nowadays, or, as you know, some of the people from the more charismatic backgrounds that are at our church. And so we just remind ourselves, somebody crying with their hands up is not the sign that the Holy Spirit is moving. It is a sign. But maybe somebody from a different background, their sign is just standing there with their eyes closed, totally still before the Lord and letting the Lord minister to them. So we just kind of accept that there's all forms and shapes of that kind of stuff going on, then we do our best in preparing and using the skills that we have, and also going to the Lord on their behalf weekly, daily, in prayer for these people, "God, please let a breakthrough happen for this person so that they can stop hearing about your presence and really experience what it's like to be in your presence."
Dave Stovall 24:11
And I just want to do everything that I can do to foster that type of environment at our church, because I just know that being in God's presence is the best thing for us. You know, I said this a couple of Sundays ago, I said, when I was touring, I used to sing all about God's presence and how we can find healing and how we find comfort. And I never wanted to be a worship leader. But you know, now that I am a worship leader, I see that all the stuff I was singing about--like what can happen and what God could be like for you--now I get to help create that atmosphere where that really can happen, and help soften people's hearts to open them up to God's scripture. And so just a beautiful thing that I was not expecting. But I guess that's the lesson is that we don't have control over it, but there's things that we can do to help create that environment. But ultimately, it's not up to us. Like I don't leave on a Sunday and go, "Man, you know, only 15 people raised their hands this Sunday. There were only 15 people worshiping.” That's just so dangerous. You know, there's this Holy Spirit element that I don't force, but I know is there. And I just trust that he's working and moving, because he ultimately knows what the best thing is for that person, not me.
Chris McAlilly 25:21
What about--so that might be a good lesson for somebody who's leading in churches--but I wonder for the person out there who's, like, in the midst of crisis, who's experiencing doubt or questions. One of the things I love that you write is, what would have helped, you know, when you were that age, what would have helped would have been, "hey, I get it. Some of this stuff is hard to believe. Some days, I have doubts and questions, some days, other days, I'm on fire for the Lord. It's just kind of how it goes, mountains and valleys. Hang in there. This, too, shall pass." I think that's so helpful. Any additional words that you would offer to somebody who's kind of going through a hard time?
Dave Stovall 26:08
Yeah, just to me, faith and doubt, they just kind of work together. Sometimes, I can have doubts or questions simply based on the fact that it's cloudy and rainy, like it is today. Maybe I'm not super full of joy that day. And I can question man, do I really have the Holy Spirit in me, or am I just kind of playing games here and putting on a face, too, because it's my career now? You know, I have those kind of questions and stuff. I'd say what you need is what has been really beneficial for me--and this can be for anybody, but definitely for church leaders--is I'm not going to be 100% honest about 100% of everything in my life from the stage. And that is okay. But I have to have channels where I do. I have to have somebody that's safe for me to talk all the crazy thoughts out and get them out in the open. Because when it's in secret, and when it's in darkness and hidden is where it can grow and all sorts of things. And so I think everybody needs to pray for and seek out somebody who is wiser than you, more mature than you in the faith, and particularly specifically older, I think, where you can be the real version of you.
Dave Stovall 27:33
And I really found that in my Lead Pastor Bobby Harrington, is that for me, but also we have Celebrate Recovery in our church. It's like a program for people with addictions, or, you know, there's Hurts, Habits and Hangouts, but you find a sponsor, and that sponsor is available to you pretty much 24/7 for phone calls and meetings and stuff like that. And they're not always going to tell you how to fix it.
Eddie Rester 28:01 Right.
Dave Stovall 28:02 What they're gonna do is they're just gonna hear you and say, "Me, too, man. You know, I've been that way too." And that is so much more powerful than, "Here's what you need to go do."
Dave Stovall 28:14
"Here is your prescription to fix doubt." Yeah, it's like, man, you know, and I said this to a friend of mine recently, who's just been going through a lot in the past couple years. And he's deconstructed, and I'm not exactly sure where he's landed. But you know, from my perspective, it's not in, like, the best place in the world to be. I worry about him. But I was talking to him the other day, and I told him, I said, "Man, you know, I know a lot of people probably look at you and think, 'man, he's all the way out the door.'" I was like, "I look at you and think you're really working out your salvation with fear and trembling, really taking this stuff seriously." Like, man, if God is like this, and that means all these things are real. And if this question is real, then that means all this stuff is possible, and I shouldn't have to take it. Like, instead of just skipping straight over it, he's, going through it.
Eddie Rester 28:14 "Here are your three steps."
Eddie Rester 29:08 Yeah.
Dave Stovall 29:09
And it's really difficult. You know, it's very difficult process, but it's like, that's what you got to do. You got to be open and honest with yourself. And I think you got to be open and honest with God. He already knows what you're thinking anyways. And then you got to be open and honest with another human being, somebody safe that's not going to tell you like what people told me when I was in my 20s, "Something's wrong with you, man." You know? You need somebody who's not gonna be like that.
Chris McAlilly 29:35
Yeah, I think that having someone that, you know, can reinforce the fact that you're on a serious journey. I mean, you don't get to questions or doubts, you know, without having gone through some things in life. And then for someone to stay with you through those things, I think is important. I mean, it's the path into a deeper and more mature faith.
Eddie Rester 29:57
I think sometimes people...
Dave Stovall 29:58 I've been...
Eddie Rester 29:58 No, go ahead.
Dave Stovall 30:00
No, I want to hear what you have to say.
Eddie Rester 30:01
I was just gonna say I think sometimes when people are going through those seasons, there's fear that people will judge them for going through the those seasons. But also, sometimes when people are approached, "Hey, I've got these questions, and I'm not sure if I believe or what I believe anymore." Sometimes I feel like people maybe pull back from that, because they're scared that they might get drawn into those doubts or wonderings or questions as well. A second ago, you use the word "deconstruction," that words used a lot of different ways by different people right now. People, I think, begin to see that as a process of deeper exploration of faith, maybe setting aside some things that are maybe not as necessary about faith to hold on to the things that are. When you hear that term, when you use that term, what do you mean by that?
Dave Stovall 30:55
I simply mean, pulling apart. Like, let's say, your faith is this little Lego piece that's built together or something? What I mean is taking those pieces apart, examining them, searching through Scripture as absolute truth, right? And finding the pieces that just you don't find in the Bible, are kind of given to you by men, you know, your family or your church, I don't know, and figuring out which one of those are actually not a good thing for you. And then reconstructing it. That's kind of how I use it.
Dave Stovall 31:38
Seems to me, the way that people, like the majority of people that are deconstructing right now, they're using it as a way of saying, "going back to a blank slate." I'm taking language from Alisa Childers on that. Going back to a blank slate and starting fresh, right, and then going forward. Which is not what I set out to do when I deconstructed the first time, because I technically did it twice. And I would say, for me, deconstruction was not something that I decided to do. It's almost like grief, in a way. It happened to me, and then I had to figure it out.
Dave Stovall 32:21
It was like, okay, am I gonna ignore this and pretend everything's fine until it is, or am I going to dive in and try to work my way through this? And that's what I did. I began pulling things apart, but I did it alone. You know, I went all the way down to the bottom. And typically, what we're seeing now is, you know, people deconstruct, and then they eventually do away with the Bible. They get rid of the Bible's authority in their life. And that actually takes them all the way down to the blank slate, right. And then they typically build back up and I'm using air quotes here "on their own." But nobody really builds it back up on their own. You're going to other media outlets or sources to kind of help you through it, whether you're reading progressive Christian authors and thinkers or, I mean, people even watch these TikTok videos and stuff like that--which I think it's just terrible, TikTok theology trying to figure things out. And then like, in my case, because I did those similar things, just through different channels, because this was like, you know, in the 2000s, early 2000s.
Eddie Rester 32:21 Right.
Dave Stovall 33:29 Pre-TikTok.
Dave Stovall 33:29
Pre-TikTok, yeah. I ended up with a faith that kind of just looked different than, you know, historic Christianity, for sure, but also just looked different than the next Christian over. My version of Christianity was different. And it included some, like, new agey things in there that I just kind of mixed in the pot in reconstructing it. So I've been thinking about this a lot, because people are really hating on the word "deconstruction." And you know, I can understand it if that's the definition, we're talking about--the second definition, the blank slate, people going all the way back, and there's no truth in the Bible, and you just build back up and whatever didn't work for you and your truth, toss it out. You know, that definition obviously, is not good.
Dave Stovall 34:19
But I'd like to... Maybe there's another word, I don't know what it is, if it's like reforming, or something, your faith, where you can do it in a way that's like, you take it apart, but you hold on to the fact that scripture has high authority in your life, and that it's true. And if you don't believe that, if you don't know that, man, do some research on that, on how we actually got the Bible, because there's a lot of narratives going around about where we got the Bible from. One of them, which is what I thought was true, was that just a bunch of powerful men sat around the table and cherry picked, you know, the stories that propped up Jesus as Son of God and Jesus himself probably didn't even think that, you know, they applied that to him later. And now we have this. Like, that's what I was thinking. That's just not true.
Dave Stovall 35:08
When you look back in history, you see that the church already took these letters from the apostles, and they already were viewing them as God's words. And so when we got the Canon together, it was not cherry picking the narrative. It was what the churches were already following as authoritative teachings directly from Jesus through these apostles. And that's how we got those books. This was a God-orchestrated thing. You do some digging on that, on how many copies of stuff that we have that props that stuff up, and all the archaeological evidence, it's like, man, some pretty, pretty good. It's okay to say, yeah, pretty sure that New Testaments pretty accurate, you know, based on all that evidence.
Dave Stovall 35:54
I lost my train of thought, but uh, all that to say that the definitions are different. But when I say them, that's what I mean. And that's what happened to me, is that I initially started off just trying to take things apart, and figure out why I thought the way that I did. But doing it alone caused me to take it all the way apart, go all the way down, and lose my trust in the Word of God. And once that's gone, it's kind of like all bets are off.
Chris McAlilly 36:22
I thought it was interesting that you said, "It wasn't something I did. But something just kind of happened to me." The image that I had in my mind was when you have a map in front of you, you feel like you're following the map, and then all of a sudden, you're just, like, off the map, you know. And I know what that feels like. I'm sure others do as well. So it's interesting to me in this series of posts or articles that you posted, you talk about kind of you begin in kind of Southern Baptist, evangelical American Christianity. You kind of leave that on a journey into progressive Christianity. But you became dissatisfied. I wonder if you could just talk a little bit more about what it was that was initially attractive about progressive Christianity and maybe why you got dissatisfied got dissatisfied with progressive Christianity?
Dave Stovall 37:14
Well, at first, it was incredibly freeing. And this is a kind of a hitting on topics that I haven't fully fleshed out and written about yet. But it's the next one article I'd like to put out is, like, I don't know if this is what the title, the tentative title, or working title is "Beautiful But Fleeting: Feeling of a Wishy-Washy Faith," because it felt freeing at first because I was like, man, you know, God, it's not like all these rules. There's not all this legalistic stuff where you got to do all this stuff, and you got to carry around all this guilt, and you got to work, work, work, work, work. God's gonna be so disappointed in you, man, just wait. You know, like, that's kind of what I felt like growing up.
Dave Stovall 38:08
Progressive Christianity was way more free and open than that, way more grace based. Like, you know, God was love and Jesus' arms were open. And it got to the point where I was like, I don't know how much God really cares about sin in my life, because he's covered me with His grace. And I just feel like what he's telling me is, don't even worry about sin anymore. Don't even spend time trying to not do it. Just spend all your time loving your neighbor. That's where I got to. And that's a pretty free, open place, you know, and if you also believe that, like, every single person is going to end up in heaven one day, that's pretty freeing place to be, pretty peaceful. You just have to ignore large parts of Scripture to get there. But the thing that really kind of started to turn me back or turn me away from progressive Christianity was I had kids and my son--I got three kids now, so life is just complete chaos.
Chris McAlilly 39:09 Amen.
Dave Stovall 39:11
Chris has three. I was smart and stopped at two.
Dave Stovall 39:13
A friend of mine asked me the other day, I asked him if he's gonna have three, and he goes, "I don't know. What do you think?" I was like, I could go either way. But that was after I already had my third one. No, they're growing up to be awesome little kids. They're so much fun. But my first child, Bear, my only son, I was just holding him one night and rocking him to sleep and I was singing songs and stuff like that. And I started thinking, what am I gonna teach my son about God? Because, you know, I had really really kind of gone away from historic Christianity at this point. And, like I said, I was feeling fine and peaceful. I didn't feel like I was walking around with guilt anymore. But I was like, what am I going to teach him, because I was not sure if, you know, what I get from the Bible is really the best way to teach him. I don't know, like, how do I teach him about what sin is and what that does. I don't know what to do. And I can either raise him just like I was and hope that he, to use Richard Rohr's language, kicks against the goads and finds his footing just like I did, I guess, or I could just let him kind of figure it out and not teach him one way or the other.
Dave Stovall 40:29
And I was really leaning more towards that. Like, my faith is gonna be my personal thing, but I'm not sure if I'm going to press anything on him because I don't want it to hurt him in theway that it hurt me. But I just couldn't. I just didn't feel very settled on that. I was like, why don't I have--after all this time of reading progressive literature, and, you know, podcasts, and many, many late night conversations with my friends, about deconstructing and all that stuff--like, I didn't have any answers anymore. I didn't really have any really solid, anything to hold on to, like, I believe God's like this. Why do you believe that? I just kind of, that's kind of how I feel like he is.
Dave Stovall 41:12
It's like, well, wait a second, like, you know, how trustworthy are our feelings? And they're just not, just not at all. And that really started kind of shifting me to a point where I got to a place where I'm sitting out on my back porch, and I was like, God, I just don't know. I don't really know who you are. I don't know what you want me to do, and how you interact with the world anymore, because I felt like I was so damaged in the way I grew up, and I just kind of unplugged from it. And I was like, I just want to know the truth.
Dave Stovall 41:51
And I prayed this really honest, and earnest prayer, which was, "God, show me the truth." And my heart was so open. I didn't care where that ended at that point. I know it would hurt my family's feelings if I were to walk away from Christianity. But I was like, I just want to know the truth, and if that leads me to being agnostic, that's fine. If I end up being Buddhist, that's fine. New Age, whatever, I'm fine with it. I just got to know.
Dave Stovall 42:20
And I just I was so shocked that almost the very next week is when I met the pastors at the church that I work at now. They were looking for a worship pastor, worship minister and the guy that was singing for Audio A, Adam Agee had been leading there, off and on. He's like, "You should come check this church out." And I was like, I don't know, I don't really want to work at a church. And I met them, and Lead Pastor Bobby said, he's like, you know, "What kind of hobbies do you have?" And I told him, I read books. Of course, he's like, "What kind of books do you read?" And I was like, "Well, I love to read Rob Bell." I just looked at him kind of like as a test, like, you know, I really didn't want to be a worship leader, so I thought maybe this would push them away.
Dave Stovall 43:03
I was like, but I also read Francis Chan to figure out both sides. I'm just a truth-seeker, really. And he asked me a question that day. He asked me if I was willing to be open minded. And I was like, what does this guy mean? Of course I'm open minded. That's like the basis of being a progressive Christian is to be open minded, right. But it kind of revealed to me that moment that I had been open minded to everything except the possibility that all scripture was true. I had closed off my mind to that. And he was asking me if I'd be willing to be open minded enough to look at it again. And I told him I was, and we began to going through Scripture. We began going through questions.
Dave Stovall 43:46
And Bobby's kind of like a walking Google about theology, and it was a really great resource for me. But that turning point of not knowing something solid, really got to me and I begin wanting to know the truth. My pastor has a saying, he says, "if you're ever at a crossroads, and you got to either pick the truth or Jesus, pick the truth, because it eventually will lead you to Jesus." And that was my experience. It was like, "show me the truth, Lord!" and he led me back to historical Christianity. And I was like, really? This? It's been an incredible journey. It's not what I could have made up. But it's been so fulfilling and it's been so good. And I just praise God for that he led me back.
Eddie Rester 44:35
If you were talking to somebody who, like your friend who kind of in this moment, now you can see kind of the edges of their conversations that they're having, where you were, you've been maybe over the course of the years. I mean, it's been a grand journey that you've been on. How would you encourage them? And the reason I'm asking this is because people who are listening are in this moment right now, or they know people who are in this moment right now. So how would you encourage? What are a couple things you might say?
Dave Stovall 45:08
Firstly, to the people that have friends in their lives that are going through this stuff, we have got to be safe people that are not shocked or surprised by their thoughts. And we need to be genuinely curious. Like, "Tell me how you got to this belief on this thing." And that takes intentionality. You know, when I hang out with friends of mine who believe differently than me, I want to enjoy their company like everyone else. But I'm also being really intentional in my conversations with them, like, "tell me how you got to this thought," you know, "Do y'all really believe that Jesus literally rose from the dead? Do you believe that still?" And just listen and be curious and understanding. I get it, you know, I see how you got there. But also having solid reasons for why you believe what you do, because I've spent so much time stopping there: asking a question, hearing what they have to say, what their experience has been, and then leaving it at that. But I'm trying to do something more than that nowadays, and go one step further, and explain how I understand that. And I respect them as a person and all that, but I disagree with how they got there. Or you may not even use that word, "disagrees."
Dave Stovall 46:22
And my experience is, you know, this is what happened to me. And I've seen all this evidence now. And so like, I really believe it again. And I understand where you are, but like, this is kind of where I'm at, too. And I hope that one day, you can believe it again, too, because it's been so awesome for me to come back to this.
Dave Stovall 46:42
For people that are going through it right now, I say find a community that's that's real. Don't just find an online community of people that think like you do, because at that point, you're creating an echo chamber for what you think and feel. And man, the Bible has always been countercultural. It's always rubbed against what people think and feel, ever since the beginning. That's just kind of what it is. Our world is upside down, it's fallen. And we've gone off in different ways. And, you know, as humans, we think this way would be the best way because it's what I feel in my bones.
Dave Stovall 47:21
But really, it's like God created this world, and he created certain patterns and pathways for us that makes sense, and we just got to trust the he is good. And if you can't muster that trust up, I say, don't walk away, just keep asking the Lord. Get really honest with yourself and before God and say, "God, I have no idea. But I want to be open." If you're not in a place where you're open to the point where you can say that prayer that I said, "Lord, show me the truth, and I'm willing to go wherever that is," then ask to want to be open.
Dave Stovall 47:59
You know, I've had to do that several times. I still do that. Lord, I don't really want to tithe, but give me the heart to want to tithe, you know, and I'm going to do it. Because you commanded me to and I trust you." But it helped me to have the heart behind that. I think God honors and respects those things. So if you're going through it, be open and honest with yourself. Find a real community of people that are not not just Bible thumpers. I would say not family members, but somebody who like actually, you know, lives out faith. Like they believe that Jesus is the Son of God, he literally rose from the dead. And they really believe that so much that they share that with others. And that people that are compassionate towards people different from them.
Dave Stovall 48:49
You know, don't go find somebody who's like, "Yeah, I'm a Christian. And I hate gay people." Like, don't find somebody like that. Find somebody legit, who's full of love and compassion and the fruit of the Spirit and have it be somebody that you can be open with and have a safe place with. And if you don't know who that person is, pray for them. Pray for them to come into your life and for you to find them because God has a way of answering prayers just like that. So I hope that that helps you in some way.
Chris McAlilly 49:20
I so appreciate your time today, Dave, and thanks for being with us on the podcast. It was great to talk with you.
Eddie Rester 49:27 Great to hear your journey.
Dave Stovall 49:27
Absolutely. Thanks so much, guys. This was a real, real blast for me. So thank you so much.
Eddie Rester 49:33
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Chris McAlilly 49:41
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