“Dear William” with David Magee
Show Notes:
Whether we’re a teenager, college student, established professional, or retired, we’re constantly asking questions about our identity. All of us deeply desire to understand the truth of who we are and where we come from. For those of us in strained relationships with our families of origin, questions of identity, purpose, and belonging can get increasingly complicated. What does it take to tell a truthful story about our lives? Where does God meet us in our fractured, imperfect stories?
In this episode, Chris and Eddie are joined by David Magee, author of Dear William: A Father's Memoir of Addiction, Recovery, Love, and Loss. Dedicated to his late son, William Magee, Dear William details David’s pain of losing a child, destructive family patterns, and the grace of God in the midst of intense tragedy. He talks to Eddie and Chris about the freedom found in forgiving ourselves, the issue of codependency within a family system, and the power of testimony.
Resources:
Dear William: A Father’s Memoir of Addiction, Recovery, Love, and Loss
Follow David Magee on the web:
Learn more about the William Magee Center for Wellness Education here:
https://magee-center.olemiss.edu
Give to the William Magee Center here:
https://ignite.olemiss.edu/project/16124/donate
Follow David Magee on social media:
https://www.facebook.com/davidmageeauthor
https://www.instagram.com/davidmageewriter/
https://twitter.com/dmagee_writer
Full Transcript:
Chris McAlilly 0:00
I'm Chris McAlilly.
Eddie Rester 0:01
And I'm Eddie Rester. Welcome to The Weight.
Chris McAlilly 0:03
Today we're talking to a buddy of ours and somebody who is here in town with us, David Magee.
Eddie Rester 0:10
David has written a book about not just his son and losing his son to an overdose, but really his life story. It's a book that's coming out November 2 of this year, "Dear William, a Father's Memoir of Addiction, Recovery, Love, and Loss." And Chris, we got copies of the book to read early. What's in between the book and the conversation with David? What's your takeaway? What holds you about this conversation?
Chris McAlilly 0:36
I don't know a lot of men, white men, who are middle class, upper middle class, who are willing to be as honest about their pain, their brokenness, their journey through ego, ambition, career success, career failure, the brokenness of their family. I just, I haven't read a lot of books like that. It's a memoir unlike anything that I've encountered from people like me, you know, from people like us. I think that it's a story about our community in a lot of ways. The community of Oxford, the University of Mississippi. It's a story about families, and parenting, and marriage. It's devastating in a lot of ways. And it's also incredibly beautiful.
Eddie Rester 1:28
One of the things for me that I took away, and we talked about this earlier, it's just the secrets that families hold on to. And he talks a lot about secrets. And I think that one of the things that helps me understand is that everybody's got stuff in their closet. Everybody. And that it's painful, and it's difficult, but often, when you're able in some healthy way to bring it into the light, there can be some healing and some grace that builds and adds to your life.
Chris McAlilly 1:59
Yeah, I think that everybody, kind of, from time to time feels like they're an imposter. They feel like they're not anyone or that they're unlovable or that they're unworthy of connection, love, whatever. And that's something that plagued David, you know, for a very, very long time. And he kind of talks about that, kind of emerging from his story. He was adopted, and so there's this whole journey back to discover his family. And then also what it was like for him to become a father, have these hopes and dreams for his kids, and seeing that unravel through the book, but then also kind of what is some redemption in the end. I think it's just a powerful story of transformation, ultimately.
Eddie Rester 2:45
I think as we think back on this season, and we'll do a recap eventually at the end of the season, but really one of the, I think, of the most important conversations that we've had this year. So I hope you'll enjoy the podcast today. Go get the book, "Dear William" by David McGee. I think you'll be thankful that you did.
Chris McAlilly 3:04
[INTRO] We started this podcast out of frustration with the tone of American Christianity.
Eddie Rester 3:11
There are some topics too heavy for sermons and sound bites.
Chris McAlilly 3:15
We wanted to create a space with a bit more recognition of the difficulty, nuance and complexity of cultural issues.
Eddie Rester 3:22
If you've given up on the church, we want to give you a place to encounter a fresh perspective on the wisdom of the Christian tradition, in our conversations about politics, race, sexuality, art, and mental health.
Chris McAlilly 3:34
If you're a Christian seeking a better way to talk about the important issues of the day, with more humility, charity, and intellectual honesty, that grapples with Scripture and the church's tradition in a way that doesn't dismiss people out of hand, you're in the right place.
Eddie Rester 3:50
Welcome to The Weight. [END INTRO]
Eddie Rester 3:52
We're here today with David Magee. David, thank you for joining us on the podcast.
David Magee 3:56
It's a dream come true. I've been just, you know, one day I thought, "I could sit here and do this podcast." It's one of my favorite ones to listen to. So here I am. fulfilled dreams.
Eddie Rester 4:06
Well, for folks who don't know, David was an early encourager. I think Chris, you went and had a long conversation with David about it.
Chris McAlilly 4:13
And Cody was there, too. It was a good talk. It was a good talk. I think the thing that you guys need to know about David is that there are not many folks more encouraging and just kind. We're incredibly grateful to you, just in all kinds of ways. Love your family. But we're here today really to kind of talk about the book that's coming out, "Dear William." I wonder if you could, for folks who don't know you and don't know your story, maybe kind of give just the thumbnail sketch of what this book is about. We'll dive deeper into it.
David Magee 4:46
Yes, and I appreciate you guys so much. And I love this storytelling format that you have to reach people beyond in different ways. And hey, that's easy to encourage. I mean, that's the easiest thing to encourage. So, you know, for me this book, "Dear William," comes out November 2, of course. And yeah, I think so many people know my story and our family's story as this: we lost our oldest son, who was in the Honors College at the University of Mississippi and the Croft Institute, and the sweetest human, went to this church is a little boy, and ran on the Ole Miss track team as a sprinter. But he died self-medicating first for substances to you know, anxiety and that kind of thing. And I found him dead of an accidental drug overdose.
David Magee 5:35
And I think most people assume that this book is a direct representation, kind of, like, "Beautiful Boy," the book, except my son dies. You know, and I think they're going to be very surprised, because this is my memoir. And for me, you know, family is, it's been said, is the root of our socialization. And I don't think there's any question that's true. I also think it's the foundation of our pain, as a result, you know, and our joy, and let's not leave all of that out. So it felt important to me, you'll see when you read the intro of this book, of course, it does directly tie into our late son.
David Magee 6:21
But I was with my late son, William, the week before he died. And he kept telling me, it was a strange conversation, like he knew something going on that I didn't know. And he kept saying, "Dad, make sure you write that book. Make sure you tell our story. Make sure you write our book." And I didn't really know what he meant. So what this is, this isn't, like, some, you know, 256 pages about our late son. This is about what happened. How did we get so broken? How did he end up there from that boy singing "This Little lLight of Mine" in this church, to someone, you know, literally begging for air.
David Magee 7:04
And that's what this story is. It goes all the way back to the beginning and how this family, because a lot of us were also impacted by addiction of different sorts, and we can talk about that as we go. But you know, that's just how I'm going to wrap it up and tell you, this is about the family, at the root of it, and what that means to all of us.
Eddie Rester 7:26
I think as I read the book, one of the things that struck me was just that: family. That sometimes family can encourage us and grow us, but it's sometimes there are parts of family that shatter us. And for you, one of the things, you're adopted, and...
David Magee 7:47
Big theme of the story.
Eddie Rester 7:48
Big theme of the story is that you're adopted and the search for that family. But then there's some threads when you meet that family, I'm immediately like, oh, ding, ding, ding, your life begins to make sense, in retrospect.
David Magee 8:00
Wow, right.
Eddie Rester 8:00
So tell us a little bit about kind of that, that drive to find your family as an adopted son, and kind of how you began to sort all of whatever extended family meant to you.
David Magee 8:13
So you know, I'm not sure I've ever articulated this, but for a lot of my life, I was adopted, and I knew I was adopted, but I couldn't really explain. You know, first of all, I think adoption is an incredibly beautiful thing. And I'm so thankful for it. Let me be clear, that does not, however, erase the impact or the thing that I felt, right, and for me, right or wrong, for a lot of my life, even if I was having fun, the best way I can explain it is it was like I was dropped off at this strange babysitter's house and nobody was coming to get me. And so sometimes there would be a fun party it this strange babysitter's house, you know, metaphorically, but still, even then I kind of always felt like in the back of my head, those tears were right there.
David Magee 9:10
And I'm not sure I've ever really articulated that. I think the truth is, I think those tears were there wanting to come out with me until I was 45 years old. And so what happened is my own behavior at times, right, I would be in that party, I would be functioning. But it was always right there and I never could quite put my finger on it. I couldn't erase it. I also don't think it was really reasonable or justified in some instances. However, you know, that's the thing about human pain. If we have it, we have it and it's not always about, right.
Eddie Rester 9:53
It's not negotiable.
David Magee 9:54
It's not negotiable, right? And so it was there with me and so that was so much of this book is, I remember, you know, one of my other sons, who's still with us today and who's amazing, and who's my role model in so many ways. And y'all know, he had an accident, also substance-related, and he allows me to talk about it and encourages me even, and, you know, he was in a life-or-death situation. And this was totally different than losing our son, William. And I remember, we kind of finally had this miraculous moment and he came back to life. And my daughter, his younger sister walked over to me and said, "Dad, how did we get so broken?" I mean, how did we go from that church family on the church pew, in all the matching outfits and everything. And we were so happy.
David Magee 10:44
But again, I go back to what you note, I was adopted, and I had a hole. And I didn't understand it. And I was always trying to fill it, seeking affirmation. You know, I tried alcohol when I was 14, and it went great for a minute, and then awful. And continued to go awful at times throughout my life. And I just, it was just so many impacts of that hole I was trying to fill.
Chris McAlilly 11:12
I think one of the things for me, so I haven't talked about too much on the podcast, but I'm an adoptive father. And so, you know, that's one of the lenses through which I read the book. And, you know, you have this deep desire to help your child tell a truthful story. You know, and I feel like that's one of the things, perhaps, that is slightly different as, I don't know, the cultural norms around adoption have changed some. And so there was a range of secrecy around your adoption, that you talk about in the book.
David Magee 11:51
Absolutely.
Chris McAlilly 11:52
And I think that search for a story that's true about your origin, about the beginning, is such a driving factor within the book. And I think, what does it look like? How do I create the conditions to help my son, my child, tell the truthful story? I guess for you, I mean, and I see that playing out in all these different ways in your life, as you became a storyteller, who identifies as someone who is seeking to tell true stories. I wonder if you could just elaborate on that.
David Magee 12:30
Yeah, Chris, you hit on it right there. And, you know, by the way, every time I see you and that son of yours, I want to give you both a hug, because I do think adoption is the most a child needs a home and a child needs a parent--let me be clear--I think it is, I encourage so many friends, and adoption, even for me and its problems was amazing, right? Because I wouldn't have had a home. And I had people that loved me, even though that love didn't always parlay out, you know, in the best ways, but they did love me.
David Magee 13:03
I think that honestly, you said the word "truth." You know, in this memoir, "Dear William," you see a constant theme, which is secrets. My whole life was secrets. I mean, so my parents told me when I was young I was adopted, but the state of Louisiana took my birth certificate, a certificate of live birth, attested to by the government sworn to protect you. In the hospital, it says I was born at 1:16 pm Baptist Hospital, in New Orleans, to Betty Upton McGee, mother. I mean, that was just false.
David Magee 13:44
I was given birth by a woman named, you know, a total different name, who was from a northern part of the state of Louisiana, who'd been sent down to this Baptist home to have me and who by the way did grapple. I mean, she was eighteen and, you know, just four months before she'd been a precious cheerleader at the high school. And then she's facing giving birth to a child she hardly even knew was coming or what happened to her. And she's like, "I want to keep you. I don't know what to do for you." It was the mid-60s.
David Magee 14:20
And so, you know, it's nobody's fault, but they thought they were doing the best thing. And so the state would then well, first of all, she was told, "Okay, you've made the decision to put this child up for adoption. Very brave. Go on and forget about it. This never happened." So she's got to deal with that. And then me, they change my birth certificate. So even though my parents would tell me I was, you know, "You were adopted," because they wanted me to have at least that shred of truth. I would still, I remember I'd have to take every first grade, second grade, you had to show up with your birth certificate for affirmation that you were who you were supposed to be. To be the right age and you weren't supposed to be in the other grade.
Chris McAlilly 15:04
Yeah, they do that in Little League Baseball.
David Magee 15:06
Ugh.
Chris McAlilly 15:07
I'm sorry.
David Magee 15:07
Well I go in with my fraud paper. I am a fraud. And those tears were in the back of my head. And I'll be honest, there was a period, and it happened in the first week of school and I maybe allude to it in the book a little bit, I was in the fourth grade and I was sitting by a lady, still a dear friend of mine, what a good friend of mine growing up, Donna. You know her, a lot of her family and in-laws and members of this church. I've known them forever. But precious Donna, my friend, and she's sitting across from me and we're like in a fourth grade and I had to go in with this birth certificate and I felt so low. I remember getting a pencil. I thought I'd heard lead can kill you. And I remember sitting there, starting to jab it up into my arm, in the fourth grade, and I didn't understand anything that was happening or what made me have that feeling, but I just wanted to crawl in a hole and go away. I, you know, I'm embarrassed by that, but it's just the truth.
Chris McAlilly 16:12
Yeah, and I think the truth... I think the thing that's so... I think there's something about the memoir as a genre where you've got this exploration of truth. There's also it's coming from a perspective, so there's all that play that's there. You know, what is true from my perspective ,what's actually true.
David Magee 16:30
Right.
Chris McAlilly 16:31
But I think what I hear in your story is some of that sense of am I a fraud? Am I...
Eddie Rester 16:39
Identity.
David Magee 16:40
Yeah, who am I?
Chris McAlilly 16:41
Yeah, am I no one? Am I unwanted? Am I unlovable? Those are things that people carry around. I know they do. It's not something that people talk about.
David Magee 16:52
No. And I realized when I dug down and started writing this memoir, that was the core. If anybody knew me when I was young, growing up, people might have said, "Sure, he's a nice guy. He's a good guy." But I was chasing something. I mean, I was chasing affirmation. I was chasing who I was. I mean there's a reason "A Purpose Driven Life" was such a blockbuster global bestseller. People want identity, and they want a purpose. Right? And I was just floating out there. And look, let's just you know, there's some cliches stick around for a reason. All cliches stick around for a reason because they're so valuable so we'll go to the elephant in the room.
David Magee 17:34
You know, I grew up across the street from this church, catty-corner, right over here on University Avenue. And my parents were the sweetest humans. I can't even tell you. My father wouldn't have hurt a caterpillar, and my mother, I never heard either of them curse. I really, I don't know that I saw them drink. They were just... They wanted this family, and they tried to create it, but the truth of the matter is that house was really dark in, you know, the secrets.
David Magee 18:09
So my adopted father, he was trying to patch this family together, but he was a closet homosexual, and he you know, grew up in an era in small-town Louisiana. I mean, look, if he had told somebody he was gay, they would have beat him to a pulp and thrown him out on the... You know, and so he ends up in this life, and he's trying. He's trying to put this family together, but you know, I just remember... I mean things around my world and also seeing things and you just want to ignore it. But again, those tears that are always in the back of you, at times, it's like the ultimate definition of hell. We strive sometimes to understand what that means. And I remember lying there at night in the bed thinking, "I'm just on fire, here." because I'm in the middle of it, you know. I mean, this is going on around me and I don't know how to get out of it.
David Magee 18:44
We've been reading, Chris and I, recently, another book kind of alongside your book. And one of the things that it talks about is giving people the grace of they're doing the best they can.
David Magee 19:27
Yeah.
Eddie Rester 19:28
And as you talk about your parents, knowing that with all of their trauma, broken, doing the best they can to provide a home.
Chris McAlilly 19:38
I can't remember you, do talk about that at a certain point. There's a line where the resentment or the anger, the bitterness...
Eddie Rester 19:46
Turns.
Chris McAlilly 19:47
Turns.
David Magee 19:48
Yeah.
Chris McAlilly 19:48
And you're able to kind of look at your family, your adoptive family, in a new light.
David Magee 19:54
Yeah.
Chris McAlilly 19:55
And, you know, in light of some of your own struggles, some of the things that have kind of transpired.
David Magee 20:02
My own secrets I kept.
Chris McAlilly 20:03
Yeah.
David Magee 20:03
You know, unfaithful to a wife that I loved. And, you know, seeking that affirmation and chasing things that weren't things that I wanted. They were things that, you know. And so what happened in that moment, I have to tell you, the reality is, I grew up. And I was always a believer of God. I have to say, I mean, in this church, I taught Sunday School for a lot of years. And, you know, I'm proud to say I delivered some pretty good classes. And sometimes I didn't, especially if I drank too much the night before, back when I was still drinking, that was another era. Some of those, I'm not sure they were that good.
David Magee 20:49
But I always was a believer, but I'm not sure that I understood faith. And there is a moment in my life where I'm driving across the country with my son, William, and I'm trying to save his life, because I think he's starting to struggle with substances. And I began talking to him and it was all bouncing back and coming back into my face. And we got into this strange, you know... It's the only time in my life I've ever been happy for global warming. It created the coldest night ever in New Mexico. It was 16 degrees below zero. And that forced us to want to get out of the car and look into the stars. The coldest night, it's ever been at that place, at that moment.
David Magee 21:34
And, you know, our breath was freezing coming out of our mouth, and I looked up into the stars for the longest time, and faith, it was almost like somebody had connected, had done surgery on these aspects of me, and they had sectioned the faith and believing. And suddenly, they were like these two powerful magnets firing together. And it changed my life in a moment. And anybody that knows me will tell you, I've never been the same since. And it made me understand that yes, my father who adopted me gave me pain, even some directly to me. My mother did is well. I cannot deny that they absolutely loved me. And in all their imperfections, they absolutely did. And you know what? I love them. And it gave me a freedom to forgive myself first, to forgive anybody who had done any wrong to me, because I had that powerful magnet together, and I never let it go. And that is the grace I think of what you work for in your jobs and I'm called to do in storytelling, which is, you know, there's a lot of talk about this thing, but it's very real, and it can be transforming.
Eddie Rester 22:53
Yeah, some of the grace that emerged in your life came as you began to meet your real, your birth mother, your half-brother and sisters along the way. So what was that moment like? How did that begin to enlighten you to maybe some of your identity, good and bad? Because...
David Magee 23:14
Sure. Oh, yeah.
Eddie Rester 23:15
Talk about that, yeah, there's some family stuff there, I think.
David Magee 23:17
You can learn a lot by looking in the mirror, you know. We all have moments with biological family where you're looking at a sibling or a parent, and you're frustrated by them, how they're acting, what they're doing. Well, that's usually a pretty good picture of our own cells. It may manifest differently. But DNA is so incredibly powerful. So part of my problem growing up is, you know, I was really blessed in a college community, to have mentors and role models, people like Robert Khayat. And a lot of people looked at me in this town, in this small college town, and they saw me growing up, and they knew I was a black sheep, you know. I mean, ugly duckling sitting over there.
David Magee 24:00
And so I would get some attention and mentoring. But what I never had, until my first son William was born in 1990, at that time, you know, I'm in my 20s, I had never laid eyes on a piece of my blood anywhere in the world. And now that's pretty... You think about that. And so, finally, in 1998, I learned the identity of my birth mother, and she just wasn't ready to tell me about my birth father, and I didn't push it. There also began to be a lot of rumors and there was a lot of discussion about maybe who my birth father may be, and it became so messy that I almost didn't want to go there. So I just let that rest.
David Magee 24:48
But what happened is, I ended up having these kind of secret, like, she'd never told her three children. She had three children, lived in adjacent state to here, and lo and behold, her brother-in-law was a medical partner with my wife's brother-in-law, and they didn't know. So here I'm a secret again. So that was pretty painful, to be honest. And that goes on for years.
David Magee 25:09
But ultimately, we made peace with all of that. And you know, she'll still text me today and say, "I'm proud of you. I love you." And I'll say, "I love you as well." And you know what? That is enough. And I have brothers and sisters on that side, but also, Eddie, the miraculous thing came then of just even a few years ago, I found my siblings on the other side, and let's get this out. Because this is the most remarkable thing and I'm going on too long here. But this is something
Eddie Rester 25:44
No, this really is remarkable because I know.
David Magee 25:45
Remarkable. It happened right here
Eddie Rester 25:47
Yeah, I know this story before you even put it in the book. Yeah.
David Magee 25:51
Unbelievable. So my daughter, you know, my sons and daughter had all gone to the same small Christian camps in North Alabama. And so my daughter, went to Camp DeSoto for Girls, and then she ended up working at Alpine Camp for Boys, the sister camp of that, as a nanny for the camp directors one summer. And that summer was amazing, because she met the man who was the head counselor, who is now her husband, Luke. And she also bonded with the camp doctor, a guy named Tim Lindsey from St. Francisville, Louisiana, and they're bonding and she invited him to her wedding.
David Magee 26:33
And he came, and he brought his six children. And it was amazing. We're like, "That nice doctor. That's crazy." He came and there was a beautiful picture of me walking my daughter down the aisle. And you can see Tim's wife and his young children all smiling so big. I could have reached out and touched them with my hands. And we find out, though, six months later, after the wedding, after he came to my daughter's wedding, that that's my brother. We had no idea. And it even gets better.
David Magee 27:02
Two summers before that, she had been a counselor at the girls camp, Camp DeSoto. And she was having a hard time adjusting. She was a little anxious. She felt like she needed to be around more little campers and they had her with the big girls and she was overwhelmed. She called me and said, "I may have to come home." And I was like, "You got to stick this out. It will get better." You know, "Take a deep breath. It will get better." A few days, I get a letter from her: "Oh, Dad, it's amazing! It did get better. They moved me to the dinner table with some littles, the young girls, the second graders. And there's this young lady named Kitty, and I have really bonded with her."
David Magee 27:44
So this camp goes on for a month, right? She ends up sitting by Kitty every meal for three meals a day, for nearly a month. And she says, you know, "Her big sisters are here, but they're over on this side of the camp, so I help her with her portions of meal. I'm helping her with servings and we bond with each other." Well, it turns out that's Tim Lindsey's daughter, and that's my niece. So these crazy, miraculous things were happening, where my daughter found kind of a saving grace through that camp, through my niece, and she had no idea she was bonding with my young niece.
Chris McAlilly 28:22
That's crazy.
Eddie Rester 28:23
And her cousin.
David Magee 28:24
And her cousin. And we're all so close today. It's unbelievable. And the Lindseys were just at my house, and Kitty was there this weekend. And it's like we've known each other our whole life. Now my birth father, I'd never met him. He was a school superintendent, pretty well known in that area, St. Francisville, Louisiana. He'd fallen and he hit his head and died in an accident before I ever met him. But you know, I feel like I do know him, because the DNA is so strong. I know my brothers, my sister. I know his children. And I meet people all the time, and they go, "Oh my gosh, you look just like Lloyd Lindsey, when you're talking and telling stories." And so, you know, I feel like I know him.
Chris McAlilly 29:07
I think so I want to push through family and talk, I feel like this is in some ways, I mean, one way to read the book is just a story about becoming a parent, and just the difficulty of that journey. And there's one line that is towards the end of the book that I wanted to just read: "Parents want so much good for their children that we're practically sure we can see their rewarding future. We'll push, consciously or subconsciously, for the path that aligns with our vision." And it just is devastating.
David Magee 29:42
Parents are so broken.
Chris McAlilly 29:43
I know.
David Magee 29:44
We will all do that.
Chris McAlilly 29:45
I know we do. We all screw up our kids for sure. I mean, I think it's just which way will you mess up your children?
Eddie Rester 29:53
"Yeah, they're gonna talk to the counselor about that one day."
David Magee 29:54
Yeah.
Chris McAlilly 29:55
But I wonder if you would speak, because there are parents listening. I think it's just this is the worst nightmare, I think for a lot of parents, a lot of fathers, and you dive so deeply into this. And I can tell you're unpacking and you're unraveling, you're trying to answer that question, "how do we become so broken?" What, I guess, did you learn through the process of writing just about that journey?
David Magee 30:24
I really appreciate you asking me that point, and bringing that up, because I think maybe that's the point of the whole book. I mean, there's a lot of themes running in here, but it's about this parent-child relationship. But first of all, let's be clear, every individual human is responsible for themselves. My son, William died of a drug overdose, because he was responsible for himself. Let me be clear. However, let me also be clear that me as a parent, in his life and my other children and in my spouse's life, I have incredible responsibility. And I also had a role in his life, right. And so I think that's the important point.
David Magee 31:07
So I'll tell you, I'm not picking on this friend of mine, I kind of said it to their face. But like, last night, I get a call from a friend of mine--I get these all the time: "My son is dealing with substance abuse, what do we do?" And I, you know, I gotta tell you, I mean, the person came by to visit me at the house this spring, and they, I remember he was... I don't drink, but there was some in the refrigerator just for whoever may came by. And I remember, they were cleaning them out, right? And, you know, I actually remember thinking at the time, you know, bringing a freshman up here, I'm thinking, like, that so reminds me of me and where I was, and not understanding that relational aspect, right? It's not that your--yeah, your child was responsible for yourself, but if you don't think they learn our behaviors, they do.
David Magee 32:01
And you know, I'm not picking on this person, we had a good conversation about this fact, the point is merely that's what the book is about. And we spend a lot of time trying to get this perfect picture where we think our children belong. "I think you belong on the National Honor Society." "I think you belong as a chemistry major." "I think you belong on the soccer team." "I think you belong on the soccer team and piano lessons." "I think you should be this person in faith and be at this church. And you should look like this." And we spend so much pitiful time on that.
Eddie Rester 32:36
Yeah.
David Magee 32:36
Yeah, I mean, let's be honest, all of us parents. And the fact of the matter is, I did a lot of that. And I also, though, would be the guy at the cocktail party, refilling my glass of wine pretty quick and thinking I was funny. And then I came home... My favorite, and you may remember this, my least favorite, but my favorite awful moment in the book is when I'm mad at my son William for trying alcohol in high school. And I am talking to him, I'm stressed about the conversation, so I go pour a glass of wine, and I'm talking at him while waving a glass of wine all in his face. "I do not understand why you feel the need to do this. I do not understand. Why do you feel the need to do this in high school when you have so much going for you?" And meanwhile, I'm waving a glass of wine in his face the whole time. I mean, now that is sad. And I'll take responsibility for that. And I try to own up to that in the book. Because, look, it had impact. It just did.
Eddie Rester 33:45
Yeah.
David Magee 33:46
It did.
Eddie Rester 33:46
You know, one of the things, going back to the quote that Chris called out, one of the gifts my mom gave at one point is that I got my Eagle Scout and my great aunt was there and was hounding my younger brother, about "When are you getting yours? How far are you?" And my mom jumped in and said, "If Jimmy wants to do that, he'll do that. But if he doesn't want to do that, that's not my expectation for him." And that's one of those parental moments that still sticks with me, some 30 plus years later.
Eddie Rester 34:21
But, you know, one of the things that, as I read the book, is I'm thinking of all these moments that, yeah, as a parent, you're like, looking back I can see. Looking back now, that becomes more clear for me. But at some point, you know, you talk about that moment in New Mexico where you experienced grace.
David Magee 34:43
Yes.
Eddie Rester 34:44
How do you continue to keep that alive in you and shared from you now with your two kids, your grandkids, Kent, your wife. How do you continue to nurture that so that becomes the defining part of the story?
David Magee 35:01
Yeah, that's a great point. And I'm going to answer that by saying first a little tip on parenting. It's funny 'cause you made me think about like, "He'll do that if he wants to do that." I'm asked a lot nowadays because people, parents come to me like "I don't want to lose my child to die of an overdose like you did. Help! What do I do?" They asked me like, "Do you have any magical tips?" I'm like, I don't have magic. But I said--and then I'm going to answer your question, but this fits in with that--I said, I always say, I can tell you two things that I find really, consistently provide benefit and provide a foundation, and they are number one as a parent: don't give your children everything. We humans are better off when we have to work for things. And that includes money, that includes relational things. Just don't do all the work for them. Sometimes friends are gonna hurt their feelings, and they just are and they have to cry and feel bad. And it's unfortunate, but don't try to solve that for them. And don't try to just give them so much that they don't understand what it's like to go get a paycheck.
David Magee 36:09
So with our son William, we were trying to give so much, to give every advantage. And then when he died, I went to my other two and I said, "I'm sorry. I realized that as a parent, my job is just to love you and help you get up on your own feet." And so we actually gave them a lot less, and they had to pay their own way through a lot of stuff and contribute to it. And they will tell you today, even though that kind of rubbed them at times, it helped change them.
David Magee 36:34
And the other thing is, is that to spend a lot less time focused on others, meaning judgment of others. You know, it's so easy to help our children frame themselves against others. And that is such a dangerous thing in that it, you know, I mean, we're just responsible for ourselves. So I'm going to tie that into your answer, because that's what made me think of it. That grace and love and continuing with your family and what's the sustainability, it's really... Look, I could get into all the things I mean, faith has been a huge part of my life. Like, I didn't understand it before.
David Magee 37:17
And I'm not your normal... I mean men like me have trouble talking about that. I don't have so much anymore, but, I mean, I used to so I'm not exactly the guy that's, like, the Holy Roller. I'm just being honest, it changed my life. It changed my life. So that being a part of it, respect for others, but I can't... My children and my wife will tell you that I really began to understand self-responsibility. And that sustainability springs forth from that, because I am responsible to myself, and when I became responsible to myself, I found peace. I found happiness. You break from codependent relationships, a spouse, anything.
David Magee 38:11
And you know, I tell them every day, "I love you so much." And you know, I can take care of myself. But here's the thing, you can take care of yourself. And we live together and we are together because we want to be together. And that is been a key changing element, that we live in kind of a codependent society. And you know, my wife will tell you I mean, we certainly battled a level of that early of, like, how are we... We are a couple together, but we really began to be able to appreciate and love one another more when I just took responsibility for myself, and she took responsibility for herself, and part of that is we want to do this together.
Eddie Rester 38:55
Mmhm.
Chris McAlilly 38:58
Yeah, I think, man, there's so many things that we could talk about. I think one of the things that I think is worth bringing up is that this is also a story about a college town. You know, and not just, I mean, it is, it very much is an Oxford story.
David Magee 39:12
Yeah.
Chris McAlilly 39:13
But it goes beyond that. And it kind of pushes in the direction of some of the work that you're doing now. I'm, I don't know, I feel like having young children staring middle school in the face...
David Magee 39:25
Right.
Chris McAlilly 39:26
You know, high school in the face. I think one of the things that you're unpacking is the way in which you felt a bit unequipped to deal with kind of the alcohol and drug culture..
David Magee 39:36
Right.
Chris McAlilly 39:37
That your kids were going to face and that your kids hid from you, and that kids hide from parents. Yeah, I mean, I'm just being honest, I'm scared as hell.
David Magee 39:48
I understand
Chris McAlilly 39:49
To think about what what it will be like to kind of navigate the next eight to, you know, 15 years. Yeah, and I think that you're actively kind of working on that on the college campus. But I just wonder what are some of the things that you're observing? What are some of the things that you're learning, as you... You made a conscious decision to leave a pretty good job and to move back here to do this work.
David Magee 40:21
Yeah.
Chris McAlilly 40:22
And I just wonder kind of, you know, what is it? What is in that and what are you seeing? What are you observing? What are you learning?
David Magee 40:30
You should have seen my wife the day I walked in and told her I was quitting this job and we were going to move to Oxford, back home, and, you know, like, I'm walking away from this job. After I'd had my own fall, I'd worked for years to get myself back into place. And she's like, "You're kidding, right?" And, you know, that just goes back to how that relationship gets there. I was speaking my mind, then we're praying about it, thinking about it. And we finally came to the same conclusion together, and then we're all in and that's why we've been able to get some result.
David Magee 40:59
But you know, we've done good work at the college level. And we have a lot more to do. But you got it, Chris right there. So first of all, and I'm not speaking about your children, but I'm speaking about the fear that you are espousing about having children beginning to move into that age. You're absolutely right. You should be terrified, because and here's why.
Chris McAlilly 41:20
Thank you, David.
Eddie Rester 41:22
I've got college kids. I go to bed scared and wake up scared.
David Magee 41:26
Yeah. I mean, I wish I could tell you different. Here's why. Because we have a crisis and we're in this pandemic right now, and it's real, and it's been devastating of lives and loss of so much. But we've got another pandemic going on, and it's in mental health and substance misuse, and it is an absolute crisis beyond what anybody can get their hands around. And it starts--it's not a college problem. It starts in middle school, and I would like to ask you, what parent program, what school program, what education, knowledge, what tools can you name me that really actually prepare us for this?
Eddie Rester 42:17
Yeah, I'm gonna be real quiet right here. But my wife's a middle school principal.
David Magee 42:21
Right. And a good one.
Eddie Rester 42:23
And she sees all of this kind of emerging at that time. But she also sees, on the other side of it, parents who are willfully oblivious.
David Magee 42:34
Absolutely. That's part of the problem.
Eddie Rester 42:37
Not accidentally, but that they can't think that their 13-year-old would go to a friend's house and empty out the liquor cabinet.
David Magee 42:43
That's right.
Chris McAlilly 42:43
And I think this is the church's problem, too, man, because we don't know how to talk about it. And we don't, and it comes back to how do you tell a truthful story? How do you prepare people to interact with the world as it is, rather than just kind of stick a pretty picture on on it?
David Magee 43:00
This is the pain. I mean, look, we can go to any church youth group, and I've spoken here, and I've spoken at a lot of churches, and I've spoken at schools. Some of the schools I've spoken at, the students, when I finish will line up and the pain in their eyes, you have no idea. So I'll give you an example. So sometimes people will say to me, that they know the work that we're doing at the University of Mississippi with William Magee Center for student well-being and building this institute out there in his name to help others. And they'll go like, "Ugh. That university, I mean, they really have a substance problem." And I go, "Well, I'm not here to defend."
David Magee 43:42
What I'm here to tell you is, let's take me for example. I had a substance problem, alcohol, prescription Adderall. It was given to me by a doctor, doesn't matter if I took it as prescribed. I became addicted to it, and it ruined my life. But so look, guess what? If you read that book, you will find that I took my first drink of alcohol at the age of 14. I was a student at Oxford, at the time was called Oxford Junior High School. It was not at the University of Mississippi, right? It was classmates that enticed me into that.
David Magee 43:42
If you take my son William, who died of an accidental drug overdose, and you mark when his substance use began, it began in the seventh grade in Oxford Middle School and then continued at a nice, private school in Chattanooga. If you take my son Hudson, who battled a substance issue, it began, not at the University of Mississippi where he nearly died of an overdose. It begin in the ninth grade, right, in high school. If you take my daughter, Mary Halle, who's in the book for battling an eating disorder, at times while she was in college, that eating disorder began while she was in high school.
David Magee 45:03
So let me be clear, we are dealing with an epidemic and a problem and parents are ill-prepared, willfully. That goes back to, a lot of times, they don't want their child to miss the social, because they have that picture, as we talked about earlier, of where their children are supposed to be. So there's that. That's number one.
David Magee 45:27
Number two, they also think that substances are as they were yesterday. Let me tell you, they do marijuana testing at the university over here, some of the best in the country. And they will tell you for a fact this is--not being silly, or trying to--marijuana today that is in communities everywhere is often 60 times stronger than it was when their parents were encountering. This is not the same drug. The things that get mixed with that marijuana, we're not... You know, and so add in prescription pills that were not available. Adderall abuse, Xanax abuse. The information on the internet, the social media, we have moved into an era of crisis, and I will stop on my long point of that to just make an exclamation point. We're completely ill-prepared. And that's not okay with me. You know, I'm not skilled in this area, except as a parent and a father and a human who has lived through it. But it's not okay with me. And I'm determined to go do something about that.
Eddie Rester 46:39
So let me ask you, you've chosen the William Magee Center at Ole Miss.
David Magee 46:44
Right.
Eddie Rester 46:44
I want to talk a little bit about that. There's, if you read the book, at the end of the book, there's actually how you can give.
David Magee 46:49
Yeah.
Eddie Rester 46:50
We'll share that with you in the show notes as well, if you're interested. Why did you choose to start a center at Ole Miss, college campus, to address this issue? Why was it important to do it there? I know your son, but why?
David Magee 47:07
Yeah, that's right. Well, you know, I grew up on University Avenue. And my father, who we talked about earlier was my Dean, he was Associate Dean of Liberal Arts. When I had a bad semester for alcohol, he's the one that had to sign my withdrawal form, you know.
Eddie Rester 47:21
A little bit late.
David Magee 47:21
A little bit late, but he did it. And guess what? I felt ashamed and probably went out and drank, you know. So this community is no different than all communities made up of people. It's just that, you know, when you have a university like this, yeah, they're not the problem. It doesn't start there. But it is a collection of people who come there. And I couldn't really fathom how this, my home, my people, couldn't. We wanted to have the leadership to provide those resources. And so it was critical.
David Magee 47:57
And I'll just also tell you straight up. When our son William revealed to us as a senior in college that he had a substance problem, we didn't A, understand what to do; B, I told him just go reach out somebody on campus and call them because certainly those resources are there. But they weren't. I knew that it was time to move into the 21st century, and I just wanted to do it here at home.
Chris McAlilly 48:23
Alright, there's a line in the book, I think it relates to the journey that your daughter was on, and the line is, it's in the context of her journey, to kind of overcome and gain some wholeness and some healing. And it is, "Peer-to-peer testimony has unique power." And when I wrote that down, I was thinking I was gonna ask you about how to cultivate that in college students. But what I've realized in this conversation is that you've written a memoir, but the church has a word for that. It's testimony.
David Magee 48:55
Yes.
Chris McAlilly 48:56
Testimony is what has power. And that's what you've offered. I think, you know, I think sometimes as a pastor, what I've realized is that I have a limited capacity to communicate to folks the good news of the Gospel, right. And my wife is a social worker in a hospital on a rehab unit, and often most weeks has the capacity and the ability to bear witness to the good news of grace, redemption, healing than I do on any given day or week, you know. I feel like what this book has, I feel like, the power to do. I do you think it will have a unique power as a word of testimony between peers.
David Magee 48:57
Right.
Chris McAlilly 49:00
You know, peer to peer, men who are in their 30s or 40s or 50s and 60s, who are on this journey.
Eddie Rester 49:50
Parents.
David Magee 49:51
Yeah.
Chris McAlilly 49:51
Just parents who are on this journey. Who are on this journey to try to, you know, to lead their children into a good life and I think you've given us... It's not the only map. It won't be the map that will give all the answers, but I do think it will help identify some of the landmarks, and so I'm really grateful to you.
David Magee 50:10
Thank you. Thank you.
Eddie Rester 50:11
David, thank you for your time today. The book is "Dear William," by David Magee, and it comes out November the second. November the second. So, look for it. You can preorder it now, I believe, on Amazon, your favorite bookseller. And
Chris McAlilly 50:26
Your favorite bookseller is always Square Books.
Eddie Rester 50:27
Square Books, yeah. There's a commercial for Square Books. They're not a sponsor. Yet.
David Magee 50:35
You need to go make that call. They will be.
Chris McAlilly 50:36
Yeah, man.
Eddie Rester 50:37
[OUTRO] Thank you for listening to this episode of The Weight.
Chris McAlilly 50:41
If you liked what you heard today, feel free to share the podcast with other people that are in your network. Leave us a review. That's always really helpful. Subscribe, and you can follow us on our social media channels.
Eddie Rester 50:53
If you have any suggestions or guests you'd like us to interview or anything you'd like to share with us, you can send us an email at info@theweightpodcast.com. [END OUTRO]