Consequences | “Justice and Mercy” with Merrill Nordstrom

Show Notes:

In today’s episode, Chris and Eddie continue the discussion of justice and mercy with Federal Public Defender Merrill Nordstrom. Merrill is a lifelong member of Oxford University United Methodist Church, the church Eddie and Chris currently serve. She graduated from the University of Mississippi Law School in 2002, and worked as a public defender for Lafayette County until 2019, when she joined the federal court system as a public defender.

Merrill’s faith informs how she approaches her job. By getting to know her clients and digging into their histories, their families, and their motivations, she sees each client as a whole person--not just a statistic. Merrill helps them see that their worst day isn’t their last day. Her faith gives her hope, and she extends that hope to her clients in a moment when they need an advocate the most.

Transcript:

Eddie Rester 00:00 

I'm Eddie Rester.

Chris McAlilly 00:01

And I'm Chris McAlilly. Welcome to The Weight.

Eddie Rester 00:03

Today, we have Merrill Nordstrom with us. She is an assistant Federal Public Defender. She is a longtime friend of my family as well. She lives here in Oxford, a member of the church that Chris and I serve. And she's here to share with us some insights into the work that she does.

Chris McAlilly 00:22

I guess as we are continuing the series, we're thinking about consequences, the federal justice system, and kind of the role of faith within all of that. And I guess it was probably a month ago, maybe six, six, eight weeks ago, Merrill actually gave a testimony and witness in our church about the work that she does and how it impacts her faith and how our faith impacts her work. And it was just, man, it was so good. And we'll probably, we could probably link to that.

Eddie Rester 00:49
We could probably link that.

Chris McAlilly 00:50 We're gonna link to it.

Eddie Rester 00:51
We're going to link to that in the show notes. And yeah, they'll come into us.

Chris McAlilly 00:54

Yeah. And so, you know, I think that one of the things I hear in in Merrill's story is a deep appreciation for the humanity of people just kind of across the board, and particularly the way in which that view of humanity impacts the way she thinks about her work and the people within the system that she's a part of and that we have kind of at the center of our of our culture.

Eddie Rester 01:21

One of the things that I think really impacted me was just the conversation around the power of compassion and the need that we all have to kind of reach beyond ourselves, to feel the pain of the world. And to try to not just to help it, but to be changed by the compassion that we feel and extend to others.

Chris McAlilly 01:45

I think the other thing I hear when you're doing really hard work in proximity to pain is the importance of hope. And I think there are kind of a couple different lenses that come out in the conversation. One is just the importance of getting really close with people and learning their story, and then also zooming way out so you kind of have a sense of actually, alright, what's really going on? And then between those two things, you know, making sure that your day to day, trying to live a full life, you know, not forgetting to just like be a human being.

Eddie Rester 02:16 To breathe a little bit.

Chris McAlilly 02:17
Breathe a little bit, to laugh, to think and to... You're just gonna have to listen to the end, there's some good advice on how to live a full life.

Eddie Rester 02:27

The episode after this one, it's kind of not the other side of the coin. I'm not really sure how to put it. But Merrill's a public Federal Public Defender. We will have some US attorneys with us to talk about their side of work and their understanding of the criminal justice system and consequences as well. That'll be coming up next week.

Chris McAlilly 02:46

Yeah, democracy doesn't work if you don't have an adversarial system. And that's just the way the justice process works. And it's important for us to hear kind of both dimensions, so we have kind of a full picture of what's going on. And so you're gonna have to just continue listening to The Weight.

Eddie Rester 03:02 Keep listening. So.

Chris McAlilly 03:02
Like it, share it, and leave us a review. It's a good way for people to find the podcast and we're glad that you're with you. ...That you're with you? What?

Eddie Rester 03:12 With you?

Chris McAlilly 03:12 We're with you.

Eddie Rester 03:13
Thanks for being with us, folks.

Eddie Rester 03:16

[INTRO] Life can be heavy. We carry around with us the weight of our doubt, our pain, our suffering, our mental health, our family system, our politics. This is a podcast that creates space for all of that.

Chris McAlilly 03:27
We want to talk about these things with humility, charity, and intellectual honesty. But more than that, we want to listen. It's time to open up our echo chamber. Welcome to The Weight. [END INTRO]

Chris McAlilly 03:42
Well, we're here today with our friend, Merrill. Hey, Merrill.

Merrill Nordstrom 03:46 Hi, everybody.

Eddie Rester 03:48
Yeah, Merrill, I've known you for a bit.

Merrill Nordstrom 03:50 Just a bit.

Eddie Rester 03:51
Just a bit since probably junior high, something like that. So...

Chris McAlilly 03:56
What was Eddie like in junior high? Please tell us.

Merrill Nordstrom 03:59 That was, like, 10 years ago.

Eddie Rester 04:00
Yeah. Ten years ago, you knew me in junior high. Merrill, you're now our favorite guest on the podcast ever. So...

Chris McAlilly 04:07
I feel like Junior High Eddie, he talks about it every once in a while in sermons, and...

Eddie Rester 04:12 I was awkward.

Chris McAlilly 04:13
That was an awkward Eddie.

Eddie Rester 04:14 It was awkward Eddie.

Chris McAlilly 04:15 He's less awkward now.

Eddie Rester 04:17
That's a good way to put it. So if you think I'm awkward now, just go back in time. It was bad.

Chris McAlilly 04:23

Well, we're not here to talk about Eddie thankfully. We're here to talk with Merrill, and Merrill has very interesting--we bring her on not just because she's our friend but because she does really interesting work and has some interesting ways of thinking about it in light of her faith, and so Merrill, maybe kind of for folks who don't know you as well as Eddie, if you could maybe just give a sketch of what your professional life looks like.

Merrill Nordstrom 04:48

Okay, well, thanks for having me. So I am a Federal Public Defender. I practice here in Oxford. I represent the poor who are charged with federal crimes in the Northern District of Mississippi, so basically everything north of Jackson. So any one from drug crimes, gun crimes, to violent crimes, you know, that's kind of my area.

Eddie Rester 05:19
What makes it a federal offense as opposed to a state offense?

Merrill Nordstrom 05:24

There has to be an interstate nexus. So the gun has to travel across state lines, drugs have to travel across state lines. For example, if it's kidnapping, it would be someone you know, maybe they brought them over from Tennessee into Mississippi. So there has to be some kind of interstate nexus to it.

Chris McAlilly 05:43

Did you go to law school thinking, "I want to be a public defender?" Or did you go to law school and think "I want to make a crap ton of money?" And then you decided, "maybe I want to actually do some different kind of work?" How did it work?

Merrill Nordstrom 05:56

Yeah, no, I never in a million years thought I'd be a public defender. I kind of just fell into law school, which I think if you asked a lot of people who go to law school, that kind of their catch- all. So yeah, my brother went to law school. And so I was like, "Yeah, I could do that." Of course, he went to Cornell and graduated number one in his class.

Eddie Rester 06:20 I didn't know that.

Merrill Nordstrom 06:20 Yeah.

Eddie Rester 06:21 Number one at Cornell.

Merrill Nordstrom 06:22

I know. I know. He's disgusting. But yeah, so that was not me. And so yeah, my first job out of law school was with a small firm here in Oxford, and that individual had the public defender contracts for Lafayette County. So that's, you know, I needed a job and went with it, and I've done it ever since. So. That was 18 years ago.

Eddie Rester 06:53 Okay.

Merrill Nordstrom 06:54 Yeah.

Eddie Rester 06:54
And you've been a Federal Public Defender for the last two years last year and a half.

Merrill Nordstrom 06:58
Right. And before then I was on this panel of attorneys that do federal criminal work as well, that are paid by the federal government. But now, just solely do federal public defense.

Chris McAlilly 07:13

Just for folks, I mean, I don't really have a sense of what the scope of your caseload would be on any given week, month, quarter. How many cases are you looking at just kind of at any given time?

Merrill Nordstrom 07:28

So I would think a clear about 75 to 100 cases a year. I probably have about 30 open cases at a time. And that's something that's manageable. And I'm very blessed to have that kind of caseload. When I was a state public defender for Lafayette County, we're talking 100, 150 cases. And that is when I'm doing that basically part time with my civil litigation that I had to do for my firm. So yeah, it's much, much better now.

Eddie Rester 07:58

So I would assume this gives you the opportunity to really kind of get to know, more so on the federal level, get to know the people you're defending, get to know their stories. And I know that one of the things, as you've shared before, is that you get to see them really in the fullness of who they are as humans. Why is that important for you?

Merrill Nordstrom 08:19

Right. Very important, and yeah, thankfully, having this kind of caseload, I am able to really dig deep into their history, into their families, into their upbringing, their medical records, and get a really full picture of who I'm representing. And I'm so glad I get to do that. Because, you know, many times in the criminal justice system, these people are treated as just numbers, statistics, and it's a lot of times because we just don't have the time to do a whole dig deep into who they are as a person. So.

Chris McAlilly 09:07

I feel like that that can be, it doesn't have to be but it can be, life with institutional life broadly, right? Like, I mean, we were living post-World War Two in America, in an age where life is really mediated by these massive institutions, large. You know, I feel this way in the hospital. Sometimes I felt that way in school, you know, where there's a lack of personalization. I think that the distinction between other kinds of institutions and the criminal justice system is that there's a punitive dimension to it.

Chris McAlilly 09:44

And so, you know, to be perceived as a number within a context where you're being punished, you know, I can see how, I don't know, that could really affect a person's humanity, kind of in a deep level, and I've heard you talk just about getting to know people's stories, families, histories, backgrounds, you know. Without putting you in a position to reveal confidential information, I wonder if you would be willing to kind of give us a window into kind of what life looks like from where you sit?

Merrill Nordstrom 10:19

Yeah. One of the--I've talked to several law schools about those interested in this kind of practice--and one of the things that you have to have as a public defender is compassion. And I know people look at that, "Well, yeah, I'm gonna have that." But it's actually kind of hard. Because when you have compassion, you feel pain. And so you, you have to be able to live within that pain, and to make something come of it. But, yeah, so delving into my clients' history is very, it can be very painful. I looked at, you know, DHS records. I represented a client who, when DHS came in the house, he was covered in fire ants in his crib. I've had clients who, you know, abandoned by their mothers, raised in foster care.

Merrill Nordstrom 11:22

Just yesterday, I met with one of my clients, who I've represented before. His story's pretty interesting in that, yeah, he was abandoned by his mother, had a half brother. The half brother was adopted by his paternal grandmother. And so he was left--not by his, he never knew his father--left by his mother, then left by his only relative that he knew, his brother, and then grew up in the foster care system. He did a slew of bank robberies, but was in jail for something else. No one knew that he had done these bank robberies, and so sometime in the mid 90s, he's in a jail. And he just has this moment. And he says to the jailer, "Bring me an FBI agent. I need to talk to him." And this agent comes and he then proceeds to tell him everything.

Merrill Nordstrom 12:19

So you know, I've met some incredibly remarkable people within my practice, people that, you know, being blond-haired, blue-eyed, grew up in Oxford, was a sorority girl, I never would have met them.

Eddie Rester 12:33 Right.

Merrill Nordstrom 12:33

And I'm blessed that I've gotten to know these people and I've learn so much from them. But yeah, it is, it's... There's pain, you know. You feel a lot of pain, y'all feel it, too. Doctors feel it, too. And I think it makes us better in our practice when we are able to accept that pain and work through it. Because if you become boxed in, closed to that it really affects how well you do in your job.

Chris McAlilly 13:06

Yeah, I think that it's a hard balance. And I think a lot of people probably listening feel it, where what you're trying to do is to bring your humanity to your work, but with good professional boundaries. And you know, making sure that you don't bring home all the things that are there, that, you know, your kids and your spouse or your partner, whatever. You don't want to completely bring home all the things that you absorb. That's tough.

Merrill Nordstrom 13:39 Right.

Chris McAlilly 13:39
You know, that's pastoral work. That's not legal work. That's the whole game. That's the whole

shooting match. It's hard.

Eddie Rester 13:48

When you're talking about that, about having to, you know, compassion and really begin to give pieces of yourself because when you're compassionate, you're giving part of yourself, I think about a guy named Bishop Matthew Simpson, and he got called to a church, was sent to a church, very large church. And when they met him, they said, you never have to do any pastoral visitation. We just need you to preach. And when he was later writing his memoir, he said, "The worst sermons, the worst messages I ever gave, were in that church, because I was so far removed from life and life of folks in their suffering and their their pain."

Eddie Rester 14:26

One of the things that as we think about your work the, you know, the criminal justice system. And so I'm interested in hearing what's your definition of justice within the work and the world that you live and in the work that you do?

Merrill Nordstrom 14:42

Wow, that's interesting. Can I segue into something quickly, because I did bring some statistics to the table today, but, you know, to talk about the injustice in our criminal justice system for just a second. Back in 1972, the United States incarcerated 200,000 people. In 2019, it was up to 2.2 million. In 1975, we spent 7.4 billion in corrections. We now spend 87 billion. In 1986 is when we passed the anti-drug legislation act, which caused there to be mandatory minimums within the federal system for certain drug offenses. And that's when you just saw a humongous spike in incarcerations in federal court, which significantly affected the African American population.

Merrill Nordstrom 15:45

In 1986, the average federal sentence for an African American was 11%, higher than for whites. Four years later, the average federal drug sentence for African Americans was 49% higher. And that had a lot to do with the disparity between crack cocaine and how it was punished versus powder cocaine. Until recently, with the Federal Fair Sentencing Act in 2010, and then the First Step Act, if you had five grams of crack cocaine, and convicted of it in federal court, five grams is like half a tablespoon. Okay? It was a mandatory five year minimum. For powder cocaine, it took 500 grams to get you to that threshold of a five year minimum. So yeah.

Eddie Rester 16:36 Wow. That's huge.

Merrill Nordstrom 16:37

Huge. So they've been trying to make some changes, like I said, with the First Step Act and Fair Sentencing Act, change that five grams to 28 grams, but still, to get to that five year threshold. But still, it's 500 grams for powder cocaine. And there's been significant research about how not one or the other is more addictive or more dangerous than the other. So.

Chris McAlilly 17:05

Yeah, we've we've been talking to some folks in the recovery community, and there'll be podcasts that will be later in the season that we've been recording. And one of the things that there's a woman in Houston, Texas, who has a recovery ministry, part of a church named Melissa Mayer, and one of the things she was saying is that addiction, it knows no socioeconomic status. It knows know demographic. It knows no racial profile. You know, it's something that hits kind of every community, and it's identified as a disorder. Substance abuse disorder is a thing.

Chris McAlilly 17:47

So, yeah, I mean, if that's the case, that, you know, everybody gets addicted, it's not just like, you know, it's all across the board, it kind of makes sense that we need to think carefully about the ways in which we would have equity in terms of punishment regarding certain drugs that find their way into different communities for a whole host of different reasons.

Chris McAlilly 18:10

I wonder, I think, like what I hear you saying, and I appreciate you offering it, which is, when you're doing your work, it's important to come very close to the individuals and to one person to see the humanity of a person sitting across the table from you. But also, they'll have this very macro, political and historical lens that says, here's this individual that has come into a system in a particular moment in time, and there are policies and a whole set of factors that have created a situation that the person is in. And it seems like that's just kind of wise. That's wisdom in terms of the way in which you do your practice. Right.

Merrill Nordstrom 18:59 Yeah.

Eddie Rester 18:59

So in light of some of those injustices, the numbers you just gave us, how do you begin to navigate the work knowing that for some of your clients, the deck is stacked against them before they get to court? How do you begin to... How do you work within that?

Merrill Nordstrom 19:20

It's hard. You try to point it out, the injustices. One of my things I'm fairly good at is writing these things called sentencing memorandums which I give to the court before a sentence, and I will touch on those things. But, you know, you've seen activists, you've seen advocates really coming out. I don't know what happened to them in the 1980s. I know Len Bias died, and I know that kind of sparked this fear. I know that what was happening in Colombia also fear. Fear is a very powerful emotion and can make people do things that aren't rational. And we pay the consequences for that, especially the poor and the disenfranchised, many times can be affected by that.

Merrill Nordstrom 20:17

But yeah, I mean, I see it all the time. I try to point it out in the nicest ways to get a favorable ruling. But it is kind of the framework of which I work within, you know. I can't remove myself. There is an injustice and inequality. But if I removed myself from it and not participate in the process, then we've just lost an advocate. So, yeah, it's, it's part of the pain.

Eddie Rester 20:50
So, I'm gonna back up to the question.

Merrill Nordstrom 20:52 Yeah, I'm sorry.

Eddie Rester 20:53

A second ago. So in light of some of the injustice in the system, I guess, framing it that way, what's justice mean? Obviously, you represent people who've broken the law. And so yet, there's also these other factors, some of them historical, in their own lives, some of them mandatory sentencing and how that impacts some groups more than other. So how do you wrestle with an understanding of justice, within all of that?

Merrill Nordstrom 21:23

So, I look at justice as in bringing truth to the scene. It's not about... Justice doesn't have to be about punishment. Justice is about bringing light to the situation. And, you know, there's mercy is also a component of it. And so that's where I'm, you know, there's a statute and it has the different elements that the person had to have committed, and then there's the penalty for it. But there's so much other gray matter in and amongst that, that got that person to that area. This person has all these obligations to their family, to their community. This person has made so many great strides since the commission of the act, which all should play a part and some kind of just and merciful ruling.

Eddie Rester 22:24

Think about just the numbers of folks that are incarcerated now. In 2019 2.2 million, the state of Mississippi, if I'm remembering correctly, is about 3 million people in our state. That would be two thirds of the state of Mississippi. And we know, I mean, studies that people read and quote on both sides of the aisle now are recognizing that this is damaging for our society. What do you see kind of maybe around the bend? Is there hope for ways that we can begin to reduce that number? I know some of the drug sentencing is beginning to change, particularly around marijuana and some of those things. Are there other things that are happening to begin to maybe shift the way justice is administered?

Merrill Nordstrom 23:16

Well, there's a bill before Congress currently. It's called the Equal Act, which is to make powder and crack have the same threshold. And I think, I don't know for sure, I think it has passed the House and may be sitting in the Senate. So that's something. I mean, these mandatory minimums, this habitual offender stuff, it is crippling the poor. I mean, you're removing somebody, from a community, from a family. You're leaving these children without a father. It is damaging, not only for this generation, but for generations to come. So this hardened line on incapacitating these people has damaging effects for generations.

Merrill Nordstrom 24:08

So yes, I think many of these people, they need rehabilitation. They have drug problems. They have mental health issues. We need to put more emphasis on that. Probation services many times do a really good job in helping people find jobs, getting them the treatment they need. We need more probation officers, less jails. I'm not a believer that jails make people better. They keep them off the streets, but they don't make people better and they don't make their families better. So yeah. You know, these nonviolent drug crimes and their punishment is really damaging the social network of many of the people I represent.

Chris McAlilly 25:01

Yeah, I think, you know, you began to do that in kind of laying out, there's a whole host of things that that could present an alternative. But for folks who may be skeptical, right, and are kind of inclined to view someone who's innocent or they're guilty and, you know, that I can imagine that there's a critique of what you're trying to do that is a caricature, but that is really, like, you're just trying to manipulate the system to absolve somebody of their guilt. How do you address that, and then help paint the picture of the alternative that you're trying to paint to a kind of justice that doesn't that take seriously the things that have happened, but also, perhaps provides a way for a person to be rehabilitated in all dimensions of their life?

Merrill Nordstrom 25:54

You know, when I first started public defense work, there were no drug courts. There were no re-entry courts, which they have now in our Northern District of Mississippi Federal Court, where it's a holistic type of approach to a person. And so that's wonderful. I think we're making strides to make it better. But we do have a long way to go. And, you know, I have this one client, this woman who, did some financial crimes, but her prior conviction was for a bad check. She had cashed a check at a grocery store for $110. And she didn't have sufficient funds. And that is a felony. So here she gets a felony for the $110 check at the grocery store. And then she has to pay around $2,000 to $3,000 fine. And this is a woman that's a single mom, four children. She's now disabled. She lost her leg due to diabetes. I mean, this is the people I'm dealing with. And so we just continue to just mount up the baggage that these people have to carry. And I want to see more leniency in those departments. Like, why in the world would a judge order off someone to pay $2,000 to $3,000 fine for a $110 bad check at a grocery store, where she's trying to buy diapers and formula and bread and milk? I mean, that's just crazy.

Merrill Nordstrom 27:32

And so she's still, to this day, dealing with this debt, may have led her in some way to commit this other financial crime that she committed. You know, I don't know, but it certainly didn't help.

Eddie Rester 27:43 Right.

Merrill Nordstrom 27:45

And, you know, so I want us to develop a criminal justice system that holistically thinks about the poor. What are we doing to help them better their lives? Instead of this penalty that we consistently put on. If I get a $200 ticket for speeding, I mean, it's gonna be painful. My husband's gonna be very mad.

Eddie Rester 28:17
Mmhmm. Setting a bad example for your kids.

Merrill Nordstrom 28:18

That's right. But I can pay it. I don't want to, but I can. My client who passed the $110 bad check, she gets a $200 ticket? She's not gonna be able to pay it. She's gonna lose her driver's license. She loses her driver's license, she can't get to work. She can't get her kids to school. I mean, it's just this snowball effect, and we don't seem to think through that process when we create our laws and when we decide to sentence somebody

Chris McAlilly 28:51

It seems like undergirding your view of the law and the criminal justice system and the folks who found themselves in poverty, is a vision of just what it means to be human that is robust. You know, and I've heard you talk in another contexts just about how your faith has helped shaped your view of your work. And I wonder if you just reflect upon that a little bit. What is it about being a person of faith that has helped shape your view of humanity? And how does that then, that view of humanity, help you understand the work that you do and kind of the policy work that might be ahead for the society, for the country?

Merrill Nordstrom 29:40

Well, I mean, my faith has a lot to do with what I learned here in this church, the people that I was exposed to here in this church, my family. But, you know, in Genesis it talks about that God made man, woman in his likeness, in his image, and I think that has a lot to do with it--how we treat others shows how we are treating God. So, I try, I hope, it doesn't always work, but I try to treat people with dignity and respect, and to try to keep my eyes open to see who they really are, to take in all that, to process all of that. And hopefully, something good comes out of it.

Merrill Nordstrom 30:34

You know, I've seen a lot of people do this kind of work. And it's, like, we have this image in our copy room at the office. It's Sisyphus, he was a Greek. I don't know if he's a god or king or something. But Zeus punished him, and he had to push the push the boulder up the mountain for eternity. And that is our job. It is this boulder that is this justice system, the process, the institution is coming rolling down the hill, and it gets faster and faster as it goes down. And literally, we are the only roadblock between the boulder and our client. So I've seen a lot of people who do my work who get burned out, because it is a trudging, you know, pushing that boulder every day. And so with my faith, it plays a huge role in that. The hope is always around the corner. Your worst day is not your last day. I just keep chasing that hope and trying to do some good for these people. I'm just blessed to be able to do it. I really, I've learned so much from them, and I'm honored to be a part of their lives for sure.

Chris McAlilly 32:04

I wonder if you could speak to glimpses of humanity and hope that you see, you know, on a day-to-day basis. I've heard you talk. You may want to.. There are stories I've heard you tell in other contexts. There may be other ones. The one that comes to mind is the story of the young man who had a brother who read a letter on his behalf. I don't know if you might be willing to share that story.

Merrill Nordstrom 32:25

Yeah, so I represented this guy. He was almost seven feet tall, actually learned after I told you that story that he had been recruited, had gone and played at a private school in Texas that was kind of a feeder school for basketball, but had to move back because of family issues. But the first time I met him, he has a huge voice, tattoos, 30 of them on his body, many of them on his face and neck. And you know, he's seven feet tall, so very intimidating. But we developed a friendship and I asked him about his family. And he has seven brothers and sisters all with different dads. He didn't know who his dad was. So he was about 17 years old and reached out to that man who said he wanted nothing to do with him.

Merrill Nordstrom 33:27

But he was going through the litany of all of his siblings, and he comes across one of his brothers. And he tells me his brother works at, teaches at a college and it an Ivy League college. It's actually Yale. And I stopped and I was like, "That's crazy. No. What?" You know, "what are you talking about?" He's like, "Yeah, true." So I call this individual and lo and behold, he does work there and asked him if he would write a letter for his brother who was about to get sentenced. And he did and it was very powerful letter.

Merrill Nordstrom 34:01

I went down to the jail to talk to my client about his upcoming sentencing and asked him, I had told him I had this letter from his brother, would you want me to read it to him? He said yes. And so we went over the letter and his brother talks about how he himself is at fault for where his brother is now. Because his brother had helped him so much as a child, protected him, and made sure there was food on the table, a roof over their head. And he said, this is what he said, "and we always had a nice bath," and it just really struck a chord with me. But he said, you know, "he helped me get to where I am. And I am at fault because I did not extend my hand to bring him along."

Merrill Nordstrom 34:52

So this guy with this voice and tattoos and seven feet tall, like, we're sitting there across the table from each other, and he's crying and I'm crying. And, you know, it's just one of those moments where I recognized he was seeing who he really was. He was being told he is loved, and that he has a purpose. And so it was a really powerful, powerful moment for me.

Eddie Rester 35:23

Think about what you just said, "he was seeing who he really was." Because as you said earlier, so often when people enter into the criminal justice system, they become a number or they become their crime. They become a statistic, kind of gets added to the "this many people did this this year." And for most of the rest of us, who don't have those contacts, that's what they are. It's a very two-dimensional view, and you get the privilege. I don't know if that's the right word, but the privilege of getting to see the fullness of who people are.

Eddie Rester 36:01

And so I'm wondering if folks who may be listening who are skeptical, Chris mentioned that a minute ago, who are thinking, well, that's just, really, that's a nice way to look at people who have done bad things, and they deserve what they get, and they had choices. Are there resources or books or things that you'd say, why don't you consider this or this person's work might be a way to think about it?

Merrill Nordstrom 36:35 Oh, my goodness.

Eddie Rester 36:36
I should have prepared you before you showed up here. So, sorry.

Merrill Nordstrom 36:40
Well, there is a... I don't remember the name of the author. "Just Mercy" is...

Eddie Rester 36:45 Bryan Stevenson.

Merrill Nordstrom 36:45

Bryan Stevenson, public defender, great book. He does a lot of capital cases. Remarkable. He actually is the one I stole the quote from about, you know, the worst thing you've ever done does not define you. is not who you are. Yeah.

Eddie Rester 37:08
That's a book, and for folks who don't do books, it's also a movie.

Merrill Nordstrom 37:11 That's right. Yeah.

Eddie Rester 37:12

So it might be worth checking that one out, just as a first step of something. It was a national bestseller. I heard him speak, probably 15 years ago, about his work, I think, as the book was either coming out or right before it came out. And just a powerful voice of discovering things he didn't expect to discover.

Merrill Nordstrom 37:35 Right.

Eddie Rester 37:36
About money in the system, if you can afford your own defender instead of having to go with the public defender route, just the statistics even of what happens there. So.

Chris McAlilly 37:50

One of the things I've heard him say, or maybe I read it, I can't recall, this is Bryan Stevenson, is he was talking to young people. He was talking to college students or young adults about having a life of meaning and significance and purpose. And he said a lot of things, and a lot of them were brilliant and good. But the thing that stuck with me was that if you want to do good in the world, you have to move closer and more proximate to pain. Which is, you know, I don't think that that is intuitive for folks. I don't think that we don't seek out pain. We're looking for pleasure. You know, we're not looking to put ourselves in the way of pain.

Chris McAlilly 38:35

But you know, in pastoral ministry, you run into people that are experiencing pain or have experienced pain. And what you notice about those folks is that they are people of empathy and compassion, and then they have that to offer others. Yeah, I mean, I think that's one of the things I hear about you. I mean, you can't be a public defender and not. I mean, the whole job is to move closer to pain, you know, individual pain and collective pain. So yeah, I mean, I think, what are other ways that you sustain hope? You know, and how do you keep or like, even take? You know, I think there are probably a lot of people out there that after, you know, you read about the great resignation, everybody's quitting their job, not just public defenders, just like people are quitting their job and moving elsewhere. You know, what have you learned about sustaining your vocation and your purpose through time?

Merrill Nordstrom 39:26

Wow, it really is my calling. I've really... This is where I'm supposed to be. I've always loved seeing people who are doing exactly what God called them to do. Like, I have a friend who's a baseball coach, and he is doing exactly what God called him to do. And he's doing a great job. So I've finally found my niche. This is where I'm supposed to be. But yeah, you know, you gotta have hope. That is, you know, I was talking to a client other day, he was scared of going to prison. And I said, I told him, your worst day is not your last day. You need to continue to have hope. You have a long life ahead of you. You can get through this.

Merrill Nordstrom 40:12

So, you know, but to have a full life and to have a purposeful life, we have to keep our eyes open and to recognize pain. We have to recognize humanity. Right? We have to recognize what comes with that is pain, what comes with that is injustice. We have to keep our eyes open on it. Speak out about it. Find ways to be a helper in it. Whatever, use your love language. You know, like my dad is really good carpenter. My dad is probably not going to come on a podcast even if you ask him.

Merrill Nordstrom 40:50 That's, oh, yeah. For sure.

Eddie Rester 40:50
No. It'd be a lot of long, long silence, you know, quiet silence as he was very thoughtful about his response. But then he'd write me a thank you note.

Eddie Rester 40:55 Which is his love language.

Chris McAlilly 41:03
But get him to read scripture, just basically whenever. I mean, it's like James Earl Jones quality whenever he reads. It's awesome.

Eddie Rester 41:10 Morgan Freeman.

Chris McAlilly 41:11 Yeah.

Eddie Rester 41:11 Yeah.

Merrill Nordstrom 41:12

So you know, just to find, what is your calling? For my dad, I mean, my dad would build a bed for anybody who needed it. You know, my friend who's the baseball coach, incredible motivator, you know, motivates children. So, it's... Do y'all know who Jimmy Valvano is?

Eddie Rester 41:35 Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah.

Merrill Nordstrom 41:36 I love him.

Eddie Rester 41:36
Well he played against Duke, so you know.

Merrill Nordstrom 41:40
You can love him just to a certain extent.

Eddie Rester 41:42
To a certain extent, yeah. He was a basketball coach at NC State, back in the 1980s, who died of cancer.

Merrill Nordstrom 41:47

Correct. And I just adore him. And he has this ESPY speech, which I many times quote out of, but he said, to have a full life every day, you should laugh. You should think. And you should cause your emotions to... oh, gosh, I wrote it down. I wanted to get it right. Yes, here we go. Have your emotions moved to tears. If you do, he said, if you do those three things a day, you will have a full life. And I've, you know, having that think, having moments of self reflection, you know, taking a deep breath, prayer, thinking about where God is moving you, recognizing, okay, "I should have done that differently. I should have moved that direction on that." But just having that those moments, and humor, and having your emotions moved to tears, which I do routinely in my job and with my children. So yeah, I mean, that keeps me balanced. For sure.

Eddie Rester 43:04

I think that's a great spot for us to land. Merrill, thank you for your time, thanks for giving us just an insight into a part of the world that I think most of us never, never see. We don't think about. It's outside our realm of just where we walk and move in the world. So I really appreciate not just the work you do, but your willingness to help others kind of see into it as well. So thank you for that.

Merrill Nordstrom 43:29 Absolutely. Happy to do it. Thank you.

Eddie Rester 43:33
[OUTRO] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, the best way to help us is to like, subscribe or leave a review.

Chris McAlilly 43:40

If you would like to support this work financially or if you have an idea for a future guest, you can go to theweightpodcast.com. [END OUTRO]