“Broken Crayons Still Color” with Toni Collier
Shownotes:
Vulnerability is hard. Feeling broken can lead us to feeling shame, and shame can lead us down hard and difficult paths. But today’s guest has a resounding word of hope for all of us, despite our brokenness, despite our shame.
Toni Collier is the founder of an international women’s ministry called Broken Crayons Still Color, which helps women process through trauma and find hope for the future. She is a speaker, podcast host, and author who uses her own brokenness to help others see that good things can still happen, that broken crayons can still color. Toni and her husband Sam founded Story Church in Atlanta, Georgia, where they live with their two kids.
Resources:
Follow Toni on Instagram and Facebook
Buy Toni’s book, Brave Enough to Be Broken
Lean more about Broken Crayons Still Color
Transcript:
Chris McAlilly 00:01
I'm Eddie Rester. I'm Chris McAlilly. Welcome to The Weight.
Eddie Rester 00:04
Today, our guest is Toni Collier. Toni Collier has founded a women's ministry called Broken Crayons Still Color. She's the host of a podcast called Broken Crayons. She and her husband pastor Story Church in Atlanta, Georgia. And she's written a book called "Brave Enough to be Broken."
Chris McAlilly 00:23
It's a great conversation. I don't even know what to say about it, other than Toni is a person of tremendous passion, both for the church, for people that haven't found their way to the church, people within the church who are broken, people within the church who are on a path to healing. And we talk about all that in the conversation today.
Eddie Rester 00:48
She really has this story, from her own life, that God has redeemed, and because she knows that hope and that power, she's inviting others to continue to find that hope and that healing in their story. She talks a lot about vulnerability. She talks about laying down perfectionism, letting go of control. All of it in this understanding of healing and hope that she's found and that she is desperate for other people to know. Chris, what, as you listened to her talk today, I mean, what's your takeaway?
Chris McAlilly 01:27
I think, you know, every time we have somebody on that talks at the intersection of faith and mental health and church culture, the conversation sometimes gets kind of... You know, it's just these topics and the different kinds of vocabularies, they tend to kind of bump up against one another in ways that sometimes... Or if you're new to a conversation about faith and mental health, it can be confusing. I feel like she does a good time of making it very clear. And, you know, part of it, what I heard today, is just, you know, the church has its role. And it's not to be all things to all people. But yeah, I think that the takeaway, like the one liner for me is that God is the source, and we can point people to resources. And they're experts in other fields. And the church can't solve every problem or fix every situation. But we can point people to the source of salvation, the source of healing, and then we can help folks access really good resources for their journey. What about you?
Eddie Rester 02:35
I just, you know, to see someone who really brings that level of love and energy and hope into a conversation. It's just exciting for me when someone is so alive about what God has done, not only in their life, but how they see God at work in the world. I loved her--she starts off talking about church as this place, this messy middle, that this is how God's gonna redeem the world. And it's full of humans. And that creates this messiness that sometimes gets overwhelming and causes toxicity and pain, but on our best days, leads to healing. And so I just appreciated her understanding of church.
Chris McAlilly 03:23
Yeah, no doubt. I mean, I think that sometimes folks have an idealistic view of what the church is or what it should be, or a super cynical view of what the church is because it's full of people. And, you know, she's worked through both of those and gotten to a place where she sees the reality of the church, human beings and all that it is, and then also has a lens and a posture and a conviction about how the church can be a vessel of God's healing and God's grace in people's lives. So it's a great conversation. We're glad you're with us on The Weight. Like it, share it with a friend, and leave us a review. That helps other people find their way to the podcast. [INTRO] Life can be heavy. So heavy, in fact that the weight we carry can sometimes cause us to lose hope.
Eddie Rester 04:13
But we've all come across those people in life who seem to be experiencing the same world we live in, except they maintain a great depth of joy and hope.
Chris McAlilly 04:22
A former generation called this gravitas. It was their description of a soul that had gained enough weightiness to be attractive, like all things with a gravitational pull.
Eddie Rester 04:33
Those are the people we want to talk to. On this podcast we talk to pastors, entrepreneurs, artists, mental health experts, and many others.
Chris McAlilly 04:43
We will create space for heavy topics, but we'll be listening for a quality of soul that could be called gravitas.
Eddie Rester 04:50
Welcome to The Weight. [END INTRO] Well, I'm excited today. We're here with Toni Collier. Toni is a writer, a speaker.
Chris McAlilly 04:56
Sorry. Sorry. Somebody just called me. I'm sorry. I gotta... I
Eddie Rester 05:00 That was...
Toni Collier 05:02 You were crushing it.
Eddie Rester 05:03 I was just rolling.
Chris McAlilly 05:04
You were nailing it. Hold on a second. You can blame it on Thomas Toole. He was the one who called.
Toni Collier 05:09
Thomas! We are in the middle of work.
Chris McAlilly 05:12
Eddie Rester 05:16
You could put your phone on silent, if you wanted to.
Toni Collier 05:20 If you wanted to.
Eddie Rester 05:22
I don't want to tell you what to do. So.
Chris McAlilly 05:23
Yeah, don't tell me what to do.
Eddie Rester 05:24
Are we ready to start now?
Chris McAlilly 05:25
Okay. We're all ready go for it. It's all you.
Eddie Rester 05:29
We're here today with Toni Collier. She's an author and a speaker and a leader and a leader in the church. And we are excited to get to talk with you today, Toni. Toni, thanks for joining us.
Toni Collier 05:40
I am so grateful. Leadership is my favorite space to talk about and to, and I just am so excited about it.
Eddie Rester 05:47
Excellent. Well tell us a little bit just about you, your life ,where you are, for folks who may not be familiar with you or your writing your podcasts. Just tell us a little bit about you.
Yeah, that's right. What's that?
Toni Collier 05:56
All the things. So I'm from Houston, Texas, it's the most important thing about me. I just want to put it out there because Texas. You know what I'm saying? We're our own country. It is what it is. Anywho. I have unfortunately and fortunately lived in Atlanta for 13 years. And so I kind of got to claim it a little bit. But I get to live here with my husband, Sam Collier. He founded a church called Story Church. And I'm kind of like a teaching pastor. That's kind of my role. I get to come in and kind of teach and lead women and all the different things. And so I also have a women's ministry called Broken Crayons Still Color. And that's kind of like my... It's walking women through the gruesome, not linear, very painful journey of healing, pointing them the resources to help them heal, marrying mental health and our deep relationship with Jesus. And then I just get to be a speaker and a host for so many things. I host If:Gathering. I host a lot of things for Chick-fil-A. I've done some leadership talks there. And it's just crazy. I don't even know. I'm still just shocked. Every morning, I'm waking up and I'm saying, "Jesus, I give everything and everyone to you. Don't let me mess this up." Because you know, I'm wild. And I had a really, you know, crazy story fresh off the salvation bus when I was 21. And before that, lots of partying and drinking and being wild and all the things. And I've done ministry, the unhealthy way and the toxic way, the abusive way, and now the healthy way. And so I've got just this, like I don't know, just this cesspool of great things that God's taught me the hard way. So.
Chris McAlilly 07:25
Before we get into that, you're also a mom. You were talking about your kids. So you gotta tell people about your kids.
Toni Collier 07:29
I'm a mama. I'm kind of scared to talk about it right now because I don't want my kid to get up. I just feel like he's gonna smell me talking about him. Okay, but I've got two little babies. One is an eight-year-old strong willed blessing named Dylan. She's got some just fire. I mean, just fire. I don't know where she gets that from. I don't know, either. Thank you. But she's amazing, though, man. She's got so much zeal. She, just about four months ago now, she leaned over to me, we were on mommy daughter date. She's like, "I want to go to heaven." I was like, "I'm sorry. What are you saying right now?" She's like, "Yeah, I want to get salvation. I want to put Jesus in my heart so I can get to heaven." I was like, "Oh, okay." And so she's just on fire for the Lord. She loves Jesus. She loves church, she loves worship. And then we have a nine-month-old, huge eight year gap there. Yep, made some hard decisions there. And he's just so precious. He just has completed our family in the most beautiful way. And so he's bopping around being a roly poly.
Chris McAlilly 08:24
That's so cool. Thank you for sharing about your kids.
Toni Collier 08:28 I love to.
Chris McAlilly 08:29
Eddie, don't critique our guests in terms of their life choices.
Toni Collier 08:31
He's shocked. I'm shocked. You and I both.
Eddie Rester 08:31
No, I'm just saying. I'm gonna talk. I don't know that I would go back after eight years. I mean, when they get to seven, eight, and they're kind of functioning on their own, to go back to diapers.
Toni Collier 08:42
I made some hard calls here. Made some hard calls, processed through some trauma. I just needed some time, Eddie okay. And I am shocked. I mean, and you think it's like riding a bike. It ain't.
Eddie Rester 08:53 It's not.
Toni Collier 08:53
You'll have to be surprised that they can't hold their head up.
Chris McAlilly 08:56
It's complete amnesia. You forget completely, and you have to remember again,
Eddie Rester 09:01
But if God didn't do that, nobody would have a second child, ever.
Chris McAlilly 09:06
There'd be no second, third, fourth, or fifth born children.
Toni Collier 09:10 At all.
Eddie Rester 09:12
Let me go to Broken Crayons Still Color for just a second, because that's one of the most brilliant images. And I know that it drives your women's ministry and kind of your view. We're going to talk a little bit about the book you wrote last year in just a second, but just tell us a little bit about the genesis of your women's ministry and why that's so, so important to you and what you see happening through that.
Toni Collier 09:38
Yeah. You know, I mean, oftentimes the thing that breaks our heart is also the thing that probably broke us at some point, right And so this thing that breaks my heart is seeing women have resources, seeing them have community to help them heal. I mean, one of the most isolating things is to try to heal alone. I mean, it's where the enemy's playground is to find you, to convince you that God doesn't have healing for you, that he can't use you in spite of you and your brokenness. And so I try to come alongside women through these healing community groups, these courses, devotionals. We have devotionals on hard topics like abuse and anxiety and depression. I mean, just like hard stuff, you know. It came from me walking through my own journey of brokenness. I mean, just tons of trauma in my past. I was sexually abused and manipulated when I was just seven and eight years old. My mom had a massive stroke when I was eight, and I became her caregiver. My dad kind of forced himself into work and was present but not present, and became really verbally abusive, was an alcoholic, and it just split our family dynamic up. And so I lost a lot of my childhood and at 13, I rebelled. I, unfortunately, was manipulated by an older guy. I lost my virginity at 13, turned to weed and alcohol and partying and drugs and sneaking out of the house and stealing my parents' car. I mean, I was rebellious, okay. I left my parents' house at 16, put myself through college, and partied my college away. And instead of going to law school, like I had hoped and planned and dreamed and worked for, I went with this guy to Georgia, moved from Texas. It was, like, three months after we were dating. I was like, "Bye. I'm an adult." And at 19, I'm in this abusive situation in a whole different state. I get saved at 21. Someone plucked me out of obscurity and says, "You should come and serve in our youth ministry." And I'm like, "I don't think you guys want me. First of all, I'm a little high. I actually don't know what you're talking about right now." But God put me in the church. And it was just this image of God very early on saying, "You've got some cleaning up to do. You've got some sanctification to do, but I still want to use you. I'm still going to try." And unfortunately, I ended up at a really unhealthy church. The church wasn't unhealthy. It was the people. It was the leadership. And transitioned out of a really abusive marriage, got a divorce, and transitioned out of the church and thought I would never do ministry again, work in the church again, and go to church again, and ended up at North Point ministries, under the leadership of Andy Stanley. Found a really healthy church. And God totally changed my life. I mean, I genuinely wake up and I'm like, "What is going on here?" And so I just would be remiss if I did not reach back into valleys like I was in myself, and tell women, "Hey, trust me. God can take all of your brokenness and still create something so beautiful from it." And so that's what I get to do.
Chris McAlilly 12:21
So I wonder, you know, a lot of... The word "church" is one of those words, that's just... It attracts... It's like a magnet for all the things...
Toni Collier 12:29 A hot word.
Chris McAlilly 12:29
Yeah. It's just a hot word. People are all over the place with the word and with the reality of the church, and people come to it with a lot of cynicism, a lot of skepticism, etc.
Toni Collier 12:39 Yeah.
Chris McAlilly 12:39
And for you, as you describe your story, you talk about God, you know, kind of bringing you into the church, in an unhealthy church and a healthy church. And now you believe in the church, clearly. So what is...
Toni Collier 12:54 But not our own.
Chris McAlilly 12:55
Yeah, so what is, you know, how do you think about that? Wat is the church? What's it for?
When it's doing its thing well, what does that look like?
Toni Collier 13:06
Yeah, well, I think, first of all, as humans, I think there's a posture and an awareness that we have to have when it comes to church. I think the posture is this whole idea of holding tension of the messy middle. Jeff Anderson talks about this pendulum swing. We're not really good at of the messy middle. Jeff Anderson talks about this pendulum swing. We're not really good at the middle. We want you to be all the way over here, or all the way over there, either. It's all the way bad and crazy and toxic or it ain't. Period. And what we have to realize is that we, one, live under a curse, and there is a very clear, messy middle of God trying to redeem us and bring us back to Eden and us being crazy and wild and imperfect. And so there's just this larger story that's at play. And I think we see that with the church. It's, to me, God's plan A. to redeem humanity, to keep sanctifying us, to keep righteously filling us with the Holy Spirit, and to bring us towards holiness. And it also is inhabited by imperfect people. And so we have to have the posture of accepting that the church is full of imperfect humans and also it's a strategy by God. Right? And so I think there's just a posture there. I also think there's an awareness that has to happen with church. I had to accept that I was worshiping a pastor and not a savior when I was in a really toxic church. That's on me. Okay, I have had history with abusive men. My dad was verbally abusive. Family members sexually abused me. I have a history with it. So there's something in me that attracts and that is attracted to controlling, unhealthy, narcissistic men. Now, are they wrong for abusing power? Absolutely. And also, I have to be aware of myself, my tendencies, my brokenness, my temptations, to be honest about those things, to be honest that I put myself in a lot of those situations over and over and over again. With that awareness, I am able to spot the red flags in churches and in ministries, in leaders. And the ones that are doing it well, that are also holding the posture of "We're not going to get this right. We're going to be as humble as possible. We're not going to put any type of confidence in our gifts and our talents. We're going to put full confidence in God. And we're going to be humble enough to say, 'We didn't get that right. That's left a little bit. That was little ratchet.' We're going to apologize. We're going to repent. We're going to repair ruptures that have happened in the church, and we're going to keep it moving." And so that's my view on the church. I love it. Life change doesn't happen on Sundays, however. It happens in rows when we start to actually take what we've learned in church and go and do it into our communities. And so, mm hmm.
Eddie Rester 15:46
Do you remember the moment where that, you talked about you have to have that awareness of yourself, do you remember the moment where God lit you up a little bit and said, "Hey, this is what from your history is cursing or damaging your future?" Do you remember that moment?
Toni Collier 16:03
Oh, yeah, 100 percent. I was sitting in my counselor's office, as a matter of fact. God will... I mean, God is our source. We know that. And also he gives us access to resources, right, that can help us grow and tap into some of these different ways that we're wired in our stories. And so I was sitting in my counseling office, and I just was so angry. Like, I was just like, "Men are this and men are that and they're all just abusive, and all the things and blah blah blah. I just can't believe it. Man after man after man, so much abuse in my story." And my counselor says, "If you can just be honest about... When you first meet these men that have been abusive in your life, how was it?" And I was like, "Well, it's great." Like, I love how in charge they are and how they're great leaders and how they're...Okay, she says, "So how would you define a leader?" Well, someone that takes charge. She said, "Well, that's interesting, because leaders also have really other great qualities, things like listening well, like kindness. What do you think about those?" I said, "Well, I mean, you don't want like a man to be too kind, because he's weak." Those were all narratives that I had playing in the back of my head because of my history, because, well, I saw it with my dad. And so when I realized that, I mean, it just was like lightbulb! It was like, Sweet girl, you are being attracted to these types of leaders." And honestly? They're not leaders. They are people that are abusing power, and you've got to seek that out. And you've got to pray that God refines you, and helps you to start seeing some of those things in you so that you can start to attract really great things in your life.
Chris McAlilly 17:35
So you talk about the resources that God gives. One of them, I think about therapy, think about mental health resources. what are some of the other resources? Or you can go deeper into mental health if you want to, but what are some of the resources that you found helpful?
Toni Collier 17:53
Yeah. You know, I think about David, in the Old Testament, and how... Right now I'm just reading his journey, when he was just a young boy, and he had just gotten started. And Saul was coming after him. And he was running for his life. And he had this moment to kill Saul, King Saul, and instead, he just cuts the hem of his garment and shows him, like, "I could have done this to you. But I'm obedient to God. And he's got the zeal for God. And then also, he is stealing somebody's wife, okay, and killing them for it. And I think about that juxtaposition and how interesting it is. That... Oh, my goodness, I'm so sorry, y'all. Our yard people are about to come right here, and it's gonna get so loud. Can I tell them to just calm themselves down and go somewhere else?
Eddie Rester 18:41 Yeah, we're good.
Toni Collier 18:41
I just don't think I mean... Can y'all hear it? Look.
Chris McAlilly 18:44
[LAUGHTER] Do your thing. Go tell them.
Toni Collier 18:47
I just don't want to bail.
Eddie Rester 18:49
No, you're good. You're good.
Toni Collier 18:50
I'm watching them go to another yard. Hold on. I just want to make sure, y'all, because it can get so crazy.
Eddie Rester 18:55 It's... [LAUGHTER]
Toni Collier 18:57
Like, please, brother, do not. Leave my yard alone. She is cleaned. Okay, I think it's fine. Okay. He's going to another house. Okay. All right. I know where I left off. I feel great about myself. So I think about this crazy juxtaposition of David, who's just like, after God's heart. He's like, yes! but also he's doing some of the most crazy things. And he's intentionally trying to figure out, like, "Why am I doing these things? I love God." And I think oftentimes, we find ourselves in those situations where we love God, and we love his people, and we love his church, and we're trying to do the best that we can. And yet there are things that we do, behaviors that we do, that are not of God. And I think we've got to be okay with getting the experts in the room that can help us process those ways that we've been wired because of our stories, the way that our neurons are wired. I mean, even the way that God designed our brains. There's neurons that wire together. They fire together. And I only know that because my counselor told me. And so to trust in Godly wisdom and people that are rooted in faith and belief in Jesus and what He did for us and have also become experts in the way that God has wired us. I'm not that smart. Okay? That is not the calling on my life. And so counseling has been such a resource for me not to forget about what God's done and the power that he has to transform, but to at least help me figure out why I'm a lil' bit crazy sometimes in some arguments, okay.
Chris McAlilly 20:30
It's like both-and. It's both-and.
Toni Collier 20:33 Yeah.
Eddie Rester 20:33
When Chris and I were serving together in Oxford, a woman came in and preached for us. She was a counselor, and she said very clearly to the congregation, "You can love Jesus, and have a counselor." And sometimes Christians think, I've found this to be true, that it's just me and Jesus. We can fix this. I love how you put it. God gives people gifts of insight and healing. People think, you know, only Benny Hinn's a healer, or those... No. God gives people the gift of healing. And sometimes we just have to avail ourselves to people beyond us. In your book that you wrote, Brave Enough to be Broken," you write a lot about vulnerability. And I think the step of saying, "I need outside... someone beyond me to help me," is some of that vulnerability. Talk a little bit more about the book and what you hope people will receive in the book.
Toni Collier 21:30
Yeah, well, here's what I believe. I just don't know if it takes a lot of bravery to be perfect. I don't know if it takes a lot of bravery for us to tell the world how many people got saved on Sunday, and how many people filled the chairs, and how banging worship was. I just don't know if that takes a lot of bravery. What I do know is that it takes a whole bunch of bravery to say, Saturday night before I sit on the pulpit. I was tempted with watching pornography. Friday night, I was so stressed out from the week and planning for Sunday and trying to get my life together that I had maybe one too many drinks. It takes real courage and bravery for us to--not stand up in front of your congregation out here, okay, hello, somebody--but to go into deep, intentional accountability and community, the people that know you and see you and can hold you accountable, and say, "I'm struggling with this. Help me. Be my guide." And so in the book, it's this idea that we really do have to be brave enough to be broken, that there is no "Be strong and courageous" unless there's a battle in front of you that you can't overcome yourself. And so I'm trying my best to give people guardrails, to give people resources, strategy in this book. It's not just about my story. I can talk about my story all day, and I haven't, and it's great. But when I was going through my own bout of brokenness, and I also still felt called by God to do ministry, I wanted to do it well. I wanted to be healthy. I wanted to be whole, but I had no roadmap. I was very confused. I was like, "What am I supposed to do here? Meditate? Am I supposed to just pray everyday?" Like, what's going to happen here? Well, there were different prayer strategies that I had to start to tap into. There was a different posture of even my relationship with God. I was a fan of God for a long time. I needed to be a follower, someone that would actually surrender my life every single day to him. And so that's what I kind of process through in the book. It's like, let's just talk about the healing journey. Let's give you a little biblical roadmap to healing so we can point you in the right direction.
Eddie Rester 23:26
So what... Can you remember, I guess, moments in your own story, that when you embraced the brokenness, life got better? Or can you, do you know stories of other people who, when they've embraced that, life just opened up? I think that's what happens when we're willing to say, "I am not. And I can't. I won't."
Toni Collier 23:49 Yeah, yeah.
Eddie Rester 23:50
There's something just... you just find freedom. And, just, yeah.
Toni Collier 23:55
Well, I mean, here's what we have to know first. The enemy of our souls does not want us to access freedom. And the truth is, I just don't think we long to be perfect. I think we actually want the freedom to be absolutely broken, and the courage to heal and press into really hard things. That's what I think we actually want. The enemy of our souls doesn't want that for us. And so what he's going to do is he's going to tell us that if we say something to a friend, if we expose ourselves, that we are going to feel like complete shame, and he attacks us with shame. There's a very distinct difference between guilt, which we actually are, right? Like, we are guilty of some crazy things, all right. But guilt says that we have done something bad, and shame says we are bad. And so the enemy will try to keep us from being brave in the spaces that are safe by using shame. But I'm just gonna tell you right now, man, I'm in a confessional community, which sounds as deep as what it actually is. Okay? We get on the phone every single month for three hours and we talk about all of our stuff, all of our temptations, all of our pain, everything. And we show up for one another. And it is healed me in ways that I just... My friend Ann Voskamp, she's a part of the group, she says, "Who we are is like Jesus with skin on, a Jesus that will never leave the room, that's with us. He's the God of withness." And that's been super beautiful and healing for me.
Chris McAlilly 25:24
I do think it's powerful when... because I think there's this... I think that's the church, right? I mean, it's not every church. It's not, it's maybe not the church that most people listening, if you're connected with a church, experience, but it's... I think of it as other people who are embodying the grace and the peace and the unconditional love of Jesus in this world, now, in the midst of real things, you know. And also at the same time, allowing there to be honesty, but then also within the context of resurrection and hope, and the possibility and the ability to imagine that the story, that whatever it is that is the hardest thing that a person has experienced, is not the end of the story. And I, you know, I think that there's... I don't know. I, this year, I feel like I've interacted with a number of people, for whatever reason are up against something that they feel like is the very end of the story. And I just want to say... I don't know. I just want to say that it's not, that there's a... And I do think sometimes you have to have more than just a god in the clouds, that you're just kind of throwing things up into the ether. You need a community of people who are embodying the presence and power of Jesus, for it to be real, for it to be something that you actually think is a true thing. Otherwise, I think especially-- I'm in a college town. So I think about this, particularly in the kind of in the 18- to 20- to 18- to 25-year-old range. I just see people coming up against things that they don't think they can get across to the other side, and it's like, that's when you need something like what you're talking about.
Eddie Rester 27:13
What shame does for us, shame, one of the primary lies of shame is that you're alone in this. No one will understand. No one will love you if they knew. And somewhere buried in that lie is that right now God is far from you, Jesus. I mean, that's what shame does for us. It completely isolates us. And how do we? I'd love to hear you talk a little bit, just so if somebody feels themselves buried in shame, and they're listening to this today, what would you tell them? Where's the door in that?
Toni Collier 27:50
Yeah. Well, here's the truth. Shame is an identity attacker. It makes you believe that you are not worthy of everything that God has for you because of what you've done. And there's only two things that can lift shame up off you. One, it's trust in God, that he is who he says he is, no matter how changing we are, that he is unchanging. No matter how much we change. No matter who we are, what we do, no matter how bad, quote unquote, we act, or the bad things that we've done, God is good. He's a good God, and just period. Point blank. But it's the belief that he is actually who he says he is. And he's going to do the things that he says he's going to do. The second thing that breaks shame up off you are other people looking you in the eye and saying, "We are imperfect, and we are wired for struggle, but you're still worthy of love and belonging." I mean, there is no greater release. To bring all of your mess to a situation, and someone say, either say, "Yeah, me too. I've been down that road," or "I can't relate, but I'm not leaving the room. I am with you. I'm not leaving the room. I see you. I know it's painful and it is okay." And I think if we can do our best to pursue those two wholly shame won't stand a chance. It just won't stand a chance.
Eddie Rester 29:09
Something you said just made me think of something that CS Lewis said. CS Lewis said that "true friendship begins when one person looks at another and says, 'You, too?'"
Toni Collier 29:21
That's what I'm saying! Yes. That is it! Come on with the CS Lewis quote.
Eddie Rester 29:28
Yeah, sorry about that. Yeah, I...
Toni Collier 29:35
We're doing it. We're doing it. Dr. Kurt Thompson. Ooh, speaking of shame, he has a book called "Soul of Shame." And you know, obviously, you can't fight battles that you're not aware of, right? And so if you're looking to defeat shame, to defeat insecurity, go do a little research on it, you know what I'm saying? Like, get a little bit more in tune with what it is so that you have the right reapons--with the right weapons. I knew that was going to be hard. I felt it coming.--the right weapons to take it out. So "Soul of Shame," Dr. Kurt Thompson. He has tons of other books as well.
Chris McAlilly 29:36
To me, the other thing I would ask, you mentioned Ann Voskamp and kind of some of the resources that you've received from that friendship and maybe also from her writing. Eddie has offered a CS Lewis I wonder if you have other. What are some other people or other other authors or people that you've read or that you've interacted with that had been really important to you in your journey?
Toni Collier 30:31
Oh gosh, there's another one that just slipped... Nope. Dr. Alison Cook. She has a book called "Boundaries for Your Soul." It uses a strategy called internal family systems where it really starts to pick apart and dissect some of the younger aspects of our stories and how we address those. Like, what do we do when we're triggered by something that's really from our childhood? And how do we address that and bring Jesus into the room, the Holy Spirit into the room, as we are trying to figure out man, why did that trigger me so much? Like, oh, maybe it's because it's that thing that my dad spoke over me that one time and etc, etc, etc. And so those two, Dr. Alison Cook and Dr. Kurt Thompson. Woo. It's been so good. Oh, Debra Fileta. She's an incredible licensed professional counselor. And she has a book called "Reset," and it talks about the neurons and how to actually start rewiring some of our behaviors. They're all faith based Christian leaders. They're, I mean, they believe in Jesus, and they're incredible. And they're also holding space for like, let's go heal. Like, yes, God wants holy people inhabiting the earth. And he also wants holy people preaching his gospel, but he surely does not want someone who is holy, and can spit off every scripture, but then went off on everybody on Sunday. Okay? Someone that's not whole as well. And so there's space for us to be holy, and whole, and healing people of God. You know?
Eddie Rester 31:53
One of my friends recently preached about "sozo," which is also often translated "saved" in the New Testament, but "sozo" actually means "healed," And that our understanding of salvation for way--I mean, he's so great about that. He says, our understanding of salvation for way too long has been about getting to heaven, or just me and Jesus, or me. But we've not thought about it in terms of how do we make sure that the anger that our parents handed to us as children doesn't continue to control us as adults? How do we make sure that hurt in certain situations that was done to us as a child doesn't continue to rule us as 40 year olds? And that's the work of Jesus. That's the work of salvation, if we're willing. I think the word you used earlier in our conversation was "surrender."
Chris McAlilly 32:51
So I wonder. There are people that are listening to this that may or may not be connected to the church. I want to speak, maybe if you would speak specifically to people who are in ministry contexts and who find themselves at a place where they're in the middle of it, you know, and they realize there's some either things that have happened, or there's a drift from the truth of the identity that you started with, or the purpose of even why you're in this stuff, and you realize that there's some things kind of fallen out. Or you're experiencing kind of brokenness within the context of ministry. What would you say to a person who's experienced something like that?
Toni Collier 33:28
Man, so much. I'd preach a whole sermon if we're going to be honest. But I'm thinking back to, I got to speak at RightNow Media's conference, and it's a room full of just leaders. And one of the things that I said that everybody laughed at, but I was dead serious. I said, "Don't embarrass your family out here. Okay?" Because that's one of the most tangible things that we can collectively, as church leaders, pastors, really see. When we see pastors, leaders fall, when we see moral failure corrupt the church and the positioning, what we really see is a family that's been embarrassed and broken and hurt. And I was laughing on stage and I'm like, "Don't embarrass your family out here! Y'all need to go get healed, so that you can make sure that you don't embarrass your family." But the truth is, God has divine purpose for us, for all of us. When we are called into ministry, when we get the opportunity to stand on stages, to usher people into service, to raise up the next generation who is not operating off the Holy Spirit Jr. but the same Holy Spirit that lives in us, when we get to do those things, we just want to make God proud. And I think he's most proud of his sons and his daughters when we are at his cross. Not when we are ministering and doing all the things, but when we are completely surrendered. When we have fought off the belief that it takes perfection to bring about success, and we've actually sat in the truth that it's surrender that brings us the most fulfillment. Well, I just think that that's when God is the most proud. And so I think it just starts with a daily, like an actual daily surrender. John Eldredge has this incredible app called the Pause App. And he talks about the days of resilience, and he just says, open your hands every morning and say, "Jesus, I give everything and everyone to you. Take over my life, because you're better at it." And I think if there's anyone that's just broken, they're in the middle of temptation, they've done some crazy stuff, okay? Like we all have, okay? Open your hands up, and say, "Jesus, I give everyone and everything to you. If you've got to take me out of that position, do it. If I've got to lose some followers, do it. Because I want to make you proud. And you're most proud of me when I'm at your cross. So leave me there." You know?
Eddie Rester 35:51
Yeah. You talked a lot about vulnerability. And that's kind of surrender. And as you think about people who are in leadership, whether it's in church leadership, or maybe out in the business world, out on Main Street, what does healthy vulnerability look like for leaders? What would you say to that?
Toni Collier 36:11
That's so good. Let me first differentiate that there's a difference between transparency and vulnerability. Sometimes we think we're being vulnerable, when really, we're just being transparent. Transparency really is just you being your own self. It's just being willing to be your own self, okay. And there's no power in that. Okay? So real vulnerability is not just existing in who you are. It's exposing the crevices, the cracks, the valleys, the dark spaces, and vulnerability is the most powerful when done in safe places. Your vulnerability cannot be met by unsafety. Like it just... Because if you are vulnerable, and someone casts you out, makes fun of you, makes you feel crazy, you will almost never do it again. You will then fall into the shame trap that the enemy tries to wish on us. And so I would say your focus, maybe isn't telling all your business right now. It's maybe finding people that you can tell your business to, cultivating intentional relationships, deciding that your sandwich friends, the one that you've been having lunch with at work, maybe are not the safest place for you to tell all your business, okay? That maybe you need to cultivate some deep friendships. Maybe it's just one. Maybe it's not a friend yet. Maybe it's a pastor, maybe it is your counselor. Maybe it's that safe place first, so you can practice the muscle of vulnerability to then get into other relationships.
Eddie Rester 37:34
That's a great way to think of it.
Chris McAlilly 37:37
Yeah, I think one of the things that's different between maybe my parents' generation, and you know, 10 or 20 years into the future, 30 years, people Eddie's age, you know.
Eddie Rester 37:48 Thanks.
Chris McAlilly 37:49
I'm just kidding. And then also the younger generation, I do think that mental health vocabulary and resources and tools are available for younger folks. But I see the ways in which the deployment of those resources and that language sometimes gets... I don't know. It takes time, right? Like there's a sense of, you know, some of the words in the vocabulary of mental health get thrown out in certain settings. And I think, "I don't know if that's exactly how that's meant to be used." Right? Like, I'm not certain that what you're doing... And so I do think it requires both knowing a language and a vocabulary and having also, I think, a little bit of grace with one another as we try to do this in community with one another, because people are going to say, you know, "thank you for," "I'm being vulnerable," And really, they're just sharing their business, or they're just being honest with what they really wanted to say. But it's not necessarily healthy, like in a professional setting, or whatever. And so I think it's hard stuff. And I do think I appreciate what you said, there's a messy middle, and it's not... That image sometimes gets used as like, we're not actually... We don't actually have convictions. We don't actually. But it's really like we're in the middle of a story that is messy, because we're between the beginning and the end of God's story. And until the end, it's going to be messy, you know, and so.
Toni Collier 39:18 A hundred percent.
Chris McAlilly 39:19
I do think there's a kind of grace that has to be offered to one another. I want to move beyond just individuals to people who are leading organizations. I mean, so it's a leadership question, but it really is like, how do you create cultures, not just environments, but cultures in staffs or but it really is like, how do you create cultures, not just environments, but cultures in staffs or in groups where the kind of healthy spirituality that you're talking about is kind of manifest and invited?
Toni Collier 39:48
You know, I think one of the things that we have maybe gotten a little confused in the church is the picture of, you know, the Acts church and how free and open it was. And we were bringing all of the things that we had, so that everyone had what they needed, and it was just kind of like this, I don't know, this community junction of just generosity, just trying to make sure that the Holy Spirit was experienced, that Jesus was magnified, that God was on the throne and that everybody had all they need. And I think we have confused the church as being the place where you can get everything that you need. I think that there's this pressure on the church to be the guide to help new believers become believers, the concert hall to serve up great and incredible worship every single Sunday, the hospital for finances and mental health and emotional health, and fix my marriage, fix these kids while you're at it, okay? And it's become this... Like, the church has to be the end all, be all. And because of that expectation and expectations missed, we've got people mad at the church, and you were supposed to fix this, and this and that and this and this and that. And I'm like, we are not your Savior. Do not get it twisted, here. We are a strategy, and we will fight to be that strategy, to help magnify the source that is God, and then to point you to resources. I say that, because we have got to be humble enough as church leaders to say we do not know at all. I'm actually going to a mental health collective that's really this like meeting ground for pastors or lay leaders or parish church leaders, people like me, who have organizations outside of the church, and mental health professionals. And we all meet up for three days, and they teach us and we... We don't really teach anything, if I'm being honest. We just kind of ingest the information. And last year, when I went to it, there was a session where they said there's a difference between mental health and mental illness. You can address mental health from the pulpit, but you are no doctor. Do not tackle mental illness. And it was like all the pastors in the room kind of like leaned forward, and we were like, "Oh, my goodness." Like, we are not the professionals. We have to have resources to point people to. And I think we need congregants, members that come in saying, the church cannot solve everything, all of my problems that I'm bringing. But they can help me by being humble and saying, "We don't have any resources for that." Especially smaller churches. That's just like, we don't know. We love Jesus. Okay. But it takes the church to be humble enough to say that because how many pastors are like, "I got you. Yeah, let's sit down. Let's meet up and I'm gonna help you figure out all your things." No. Your marriage is in crisis, and it needs a professional. Okay? This is not me. You're gonna end up leaving the church. You're gonna be mad at me because your marriage failed because I don't know what I'm talking about. Okay? I do not know. And so I just like, how many times, I'm saying. Like, we get all the emails, y'all. They're like, we're just in the middle... And we're just like, well, that is unfortunate.
Eddie Rester 43:03
But I do think you're right. I think people, and this is how we have warped, and we've allowed it to happen, I've allowed it to happen as a pastor. We've allowed the warping to happen. And I remember going to one of the conferences with Andy Stanley, who you mentioned earlier, when you want to talk about healthy church. We can talk all that. I'd love. You know, if Andy ever needs a pastor, you connect him to me. But he's so... But what he said was, he said, we made the decision as a church that we were not going to be all. And we weren't going to do all things. We weren't going to be all things. He said there's a church down the road that does great divorce recovery. People come to us all the time saying we should launch divorce recovery. And every time I'm like, no, because the church down there does a great job at that.
Toni Collier 43:53 Good.
Eddie Rester 43:55
Yeah, he's good. I don't know. Yeah.
Toni Collier 43:57
We love Andy. Yeah, he changed our lives. And he's taught this. He's taught us this do what God has called you to do.
Chris McAlilly 44:05 Yeah.
Eddie Rester 44:06
And that's not what the church down the road is called to do.
Toni Collier 44:09
Not what that church on the road. Trying to be everything to everybody because you want to fill your seats. Okay. Sorry.
Chris McAlilly 44:13
You want to fill your seats. You also want to feel needed, you know, at the end of the day.
Toni Collier 44:16 Oh, yeah. That's good.
Chris McAlilly 44:17
Yeah, there's the sense of... Coming back around to... I don't know. I think about, I remember being at my seminary. The library's getting rid of old books. It was the books that nobody had checked out in, like, 10 years. And there were a lot of pop psychology, church psychology books, I was like, oh. They're giving them away for, like, 25 cents. And it's in part because I think as the church was losing its influence on the culture, I feel like pastors and churches were trying to find different ways to remain relevant and to remain needed and so... I think it's a different frame to say, yes, there is something that God is calling me to do, you know, and it isn't necessarily everything. It couldn't be everything, but it could be very specific, and it could actually meet a real need in the in the community. But that takes discernment and I think that there's a deep level of awareness, I think, in your own stuff in your own brokenness, to get to a point where you actually do that kind of discernment about what it is that God might want you to do. Come on. What's good? So if you had one hope for the church, we're talking about the church right now, and you had a couple of minutes to say this is my hope for the church, for my kids, for my eight and a half year old, and for my nine month old, what's the hope?
Toni Collier 45:50
I really do hope that we as a church begin to posture ourselves vertically. That's one of the principles that we have in our church. And it really came from just years of being in ministry and seeing kind of... My husband and I both went to seminary and seeing the arc of the church and how it was, at first, this is a church for the saints. And we got to leave all them other heathens out there. They just got to stay out there. This is church for the saints. And then we swung the pendulum a little left here. And we said this church for everybody. Come as you are. We swung a little too hard. And we were just like, it doesn't even matter what you do! Sanctification, say yes to Jesus, everything is fine. And I think what has happened is those two models have a horizontal worship ethos, presence. The first one was all about how holy we can be, and how we can protect the church from the outsiders and it was all horizontal. It was like from person to person, are you saved enough? Are you? Are you? Then it went horizontal again, and it was like, okay, so how can we just make everyone feel comfortable. It's all about us. It still stays very horizontal within the church. We're pinging up against each other on Sundays. I pray for the next generation and for our generation now, that we would come into church buildings, and we would thrust our energy upward, that we would come in and we would die. I mean, we would look at every crevice of the church and ask the question, how does this magnify God? How does it point people to God? How does it return people back to the heart of Jesus? Does this, is this a holy stature? I pray that we would, you know, be like Leviticus, as meticulous as it is, but to get every single detail right, to magnify and keep holy the place and the name of God. And that's what I want the most, a vertical worshiping generation.
Chris McAlilly 48:01 That's a good place to end.
Eddie Rester 48:04
Toni, what a great word, what a great time. I wish all of our listeners could just watch you move and throw your arms in the air and just you can feel just the energy and the passion for what you do. I'm so thankful that God has called you, the images and the work that you do. You've
Toni Collier 48:27
Yeah! The Still Coloring podcast.
Eddie Rester 48:30
Still Coloring podcast, and the book is...
Toni Collier 48:34
"Brave Enough to be Broken."
Eddie Rester 48:36
"Brave Enough to be Broken." So check those out. You will be excited. Be sure to tell somebody about Toni Collier. Toni, thank you for your time today.
Toni Collier 48:46
Thank you guys. I'm grateful to be here.
Eddie Rester 48:48
[OUTRO] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, the best way to help us is to like, subscribe, or leave a review.
Chris McAlilly 48:57
If you would like to support this work financially or if you have an idea for a future guest, you can go to theweightpodcast.com. [END OUTRO]