“Asbury Revival - Holy, Humble, Simple” with Jason Vickers

Show Notes:

In this episode, we welcome back Dr. Jason Vickers, professor of theology at Asbury Seminary. Jason is an ordained elder in full connection on the Western NC Conference of the United Methodist Church, past president of the Wesleyan Theological Society, and current editor of the Wesleyan Theological Journal.

He also has first-hand experience with the ongoing revival at Asbury University, which sits across the street from his office at Asbury Seminary. This revival started with a few students who stayed after chapel one day. These students stayed, prayed, and sang, and as they did, more and more people showed up to stay, pray, and sing with them. People from around the United States and the world showed up to the small town of Wilmore, Kentucky, hoping to experience the presence of the Holy Spirit that lead these students to stay, pray, and sing.

What happened in Hughes Auditorium at Asbury University wasn’t planned. It wasn’t packaged. It didn’t have a celebrity at the center. It was an organic movement that required the leaders of the school and the town to work quickly and together to provide for the thousands of people who showed up, looking to be part of this moment of revival. 

What does revival look like for you? What places in your life need renewal, the rekindling of your love of God and neighbor?

Resources:

Follow Jason on the Internet at jasonvickers.org.

Find Jason’s books here.

Follow Jason on Twitter and Facebook.

Listen to his previous episode on The Weight.

Transcript:

Chris McAlilly 00:00
I'm Eddie rester. I'm Chris McAlilly. Welcome to The Weight.

Eddie Rester 00:04

Today we have a special episode of The Weight. We have Dr. Jason Vickers with us. He's a professor of theology at Asbury Seminary. And if you've heard any ripples in the news over the last couple of weeks, then you may be aware of an awakening or revival that's been happening across the street at Asbury University from the seminary. And so Dr. Vickers is with us today just to share some of his insight,

Chris McAlilly 00:30

We hear some of his firsthand accounts of what he's seen and observed. And then we kind of tease out what is this phenomenon of revival, and kind of place it in a slightly wider context contextually. You know, you maybe come into this conversation, and you've been inundated with news about this nd this may be the center of what you've been paying attention to. You may be coming into it maybe slightly skeptical or cynical about the reality of a phenomenon like this being something that gets talked about. And, you know, however you come in, I think you'll find a way into this conversation. And I think, Jason, to me, is one of the... He's just wise. He's deeply, deeply smart about the things of theology and the things of God. He's always somebody that I look to as a voice that I trust to kind of orient on a range of different questions. And I'm grateful that he is on the ground there in Wilmore, to kind of give some context.

Eddie Rester 01:33
One of the things I realized very quickly, probably two or three days after the news started coming out of Wilmore was that there were two stories happening. One was what was happening on the ground. The other was kind of the story about the story. And they were, in some ways, similar, but often very different, how the world wanted to frame it and talk about it, and perceive what was happening there. Then there was really what was unfolding and how the university stewarded and took care of what was happening. And so I'm thankful that he was able to kind of give one, his firsthand experience. But you know, as you said, Chris, he really helps us think much more broadly about what it means to be people who seek after God, who seek our own revival at times.

Chris McAlilly 02:24

Yeah, this is coming out on Thursday, the day after Ash Wednesday. And so, you know, hopefully, this will be maybe one of the things that you listen to in a journey towards Easter this year. And, you know, my hope, I guess, as I think about it, is that perhaps it's an opportunity for you to continue to think about what's going on your own heart, your own life, and maybe kind of get in tune with what it is you're longing for, what it is you desire, maybe in the season of your life. So I hope you enjoy the episode. Like it, share it with your people, and leave us a review wherever you find your podcast. And we're always grateful to have you with us here on The Weight. [INTRO] Life can be heavy, so heavy, in fact that the weight we carry can sometimes cause us to lose hope.

Eddie Rester 03:18
But we've all come across those people in life who seem to be experiencing the same world we live in, except they maintain a great depth of joy and hope.

Chris McAlilly 03:27
A former generation called this gravitas. It was their description of a soul that had gained enough weightiness to be attractive, like all things with a gravitational pull.

Eddie Rester 03:38
Those are the people we want to talk to. On this podcast, we talk to pastors, entrepreneurs, artists, mental health experts, and many others.

Chris McAlilly 03:48
We'll create space for heavy topics. But we'll be listening for a quality of soul that could be called gravitas.

Eddie Rester 03:55
Welcome to The Weight. [END INTRO]

Chris McAlilly 03:57

We're here today with Jason Vickers. Jason has been on the podcast before, and we are excited to have you back today to talk about what has been happening in around Wilmore, Kentucky, where you teach. Jason, thanks for taking the time in the space to be with us today.

Jason Vickers 04:05
It's good to be with both of you.

Chris McAlilly 04:20

We'd love to hear, perhaps, if you don't mind offering just kind of some first person observations just over the past couple of weeks and if someone perhaps has not seen or heard what's going on at Asbury, perhaps just kind of give a brief description.

Jason Vickers 04:42

You bet. So, you know, about two weeks ago, it'll be two weeks this Wednesday, we, you know, things were fairly normal on both sides of the street. And I should say for your listeners that there's a university on one side of the street and a seminary on the other, and they are related but but distinct, separate presidents, boards of trustees and so forth. I work for the seminary. So I'm not an official spokesperson for the university. But at the same time, we do a lot together. And it's not uncommon for those of us at the seminary to drift across the street and attend a chapel service, especially in a situation like this. So the university, you know, was having their regularly scheduled chapel service on a Wednesday. It wasn't anything. It was not a scheduled revival or anything like that. And after the service, a number of students stayed to pray and to sing. And it's really a pretty simple story at its origin. They just kept staying and singing and praying. And as many people know, there have been revivals in the past at Asbury. We can talk in a little while about, you know, what is revival, what do we mean by that term. But within a couple of days, I was beginning to hear about it from various sources, people in Wilmore, as well as people just connected to either of the Asburys. So on Friday, I'd heard really good things. And at this point, it's very important to realize that, you know, for the first four or five days that this went on, it was almost exclusively the students at the college that were gathered in Hughes Auditorium, praying and worshiping God, in really just a simple way. There was not anything particularly demonstrative. Not a lot of, you know, crazy stuff happening. It was a very simple kind of thing. Well, you know, that's sort of phase one of this, we'll call it the event, alright. And phase two, is when people began to come to Wilmore. They were hearing about it, and increasingly, people came from all over the US and other countries to participate in it. You know, so about three days in, I went across the street. And I've written this up and provided an account of it on Facebook and Firebrand published it. And there's, I think, an audio version. Now, I just went across on Friday afternoon. I simply wanted to observe for myself. I do come out of--I have a background where revivals aren't, you know, weird to me. I grew up around that sort of thing. And, frankly, what I observed, I slipped in and sat on the back pew in Hughes auditorium. This was long before there were many outsiders, so to speak, people from other places coming, you know. And it was just the most beautiful, serene, quiet, peaceful atmosphere that I've ever been in. It was notable. It was extraordinary. And I'm not the only one that that has witnessed this. There are countless people online who had been there themselves, and who have testified to that very thing, that, you know, this was not people blowing on each other and falling over in the aisles or whatever other images the concept of revival might bring up. This was simple, quiet, singing, and people just mostly students, just sitting in the auditorium in kind of worshipful posture, praying, praying together, singing. It was a beautiful situation. And I just cannot stress enough how, for me personally, having been in many revival type settings in my lifetime, just how really unique the atmosphere was. It was very different than anything I've ever been a part of. That doesn't make it better, or more special or whatever. It just had its own unique quality. And I'll say more about that, you know, in a little while. And then the people started coming, and that's the second half of it. And what I would say to that is that, for me personally, there was kind of a middle period, you know, this has been going on about 13 days, right? There was a middle period, the middle three, four days where, you know, things just kind of blur together for me. But then as the crowds got larger and larger, and the lines got longer and longer, and people were parking over a mile away, that the second half of it, for me, was just the stunning realization of how many people were queued up and waiting for hours to get in a place of worship. And it's at this point that I want to highlight one thing in particular, that, to me is a standout feature of this event. And that is, from the beginning, there was no celebrity figure, no preacher, no professional band, nothing like that. For the most part, college age kids, you know, with acoustic guitar and a piano leading singing, and that's about it. That's really the heart of it. And so to stand there and see thousands of people waiting for hours in line, in the rain a couple of days, and the cold was actually striking. It was as striking as the peacefulness that I sensed inside Hughes that first time that I participated in the event. And it just made me... I stood there more than once, looking at the crowds and thinking, you know, "What is drawing them here?" Normally, when we see long lines, it's for Taylor Swift, or a sporting event. And we can even think of religious events, like if the Pope comes to town, or the Dalai Lama, or something like that. There's some figure that people want to get near. So there are even religious versions of this. But what for me was really amazing was just the sheer number of people that came, and yet there was no central celebrity figure at the front of Hughes Auditorium that they wanted to get close to. My own conclusion is that people are hungry and thirsty for God. And that they had formed a belief in one way or another, whether that's due to their background, kind of how they were reared, or whatever. Frankly, I think that the crowds were incredibly diverse. I don't think they all come from the kind of background I do. You know, I mean, there were people there who had never played at an altar before. I mean, we know this, because they said as much, right. They didn't know what to do. They, you know, how do I how do I pray? I mean, so, you know, this idea that these people all sort of share the same religious upbringing, training, or--depending on your perspective--brainwashing, or whatever, right, that just was not the case. And I just think somehow thousands, tens of thousands over the period of time we're talking about, tens of thousands of people decided that there was something sacred or holy, a kind of divine manifestation happening in and around Hughes Auditorium in Wilmore, Kentucky. And they were so convinced of that, whatever else we want to say about it, whatever else we want to call the event, they were so convinced of it, they got in their cars, got on a plane, came to Wilmore. That to me, was... It left an impression that I will never forget.

Eddie Rester 13:20

One of the, I had a friend who went, and he talked about it as a holy humility. Just in the room, the way that everything has been cared for, he noted that everybody just goes by their first name. There's no "This is Dr. So and So," "This is Reverend So and So," this isn't... You know, like you say, there wasn't a celebrity preacher, no big band showed up to wrap it up or anything. The other thing I've been very impressed by is how the college has stewarded this moment. And I wonder if you could say just a little bit about what you've seen. And just the way the college has made sure that this is kind of, I don't want to say stayed on the right track. I'm not sure there's a track for this. That's not the right word that I'm saying. But they've protected it, almost, from kind of these outside influences who would want to come in and make it something more than or something different than it needed to be.

Chris McAlilly 14:21

Yeah, let me the word that I was thinking about was protecting the integrity of the kind of origination of the, you know, the presence and power of God that people are experiencing, particularly the kids kind of at the heart of this thing. I feel like it's just, you know, one of the things, I reached out to Jason and just had a brief conversation about kind of, when something like this happens and when you see something that's extraordinarily beautiful, extraordinarily wonderful, wondrous in the world. I think it's akin to like, going to the Grand Canyon or some beautiful... You know, I mean, we have this cave at the lake that I would go to in the summer and people have just completely desecrated the beauty of this cave. I mean, marked all over it and like they've done all kinds of things to take some beautiful thing and make it less beautiful than it is, you know. And I feel like there is a kind of stewarding that has to happen around something extraordinary to protect the integrity of it. And so, anyway, yeah, I'm sorry to jump in there, Jason.

Eddie Rester 14:21
No, I think that's a much better way to think about it.

Chris McAlilly 15:29
No, I'd love to hear kind of what you're seeing in terms of how do you steward an event like this?

Jason Vickers 15:41

Yeah, I mean, I love the question and love your comments there, Chris. I mean, I think that, first of all, "beautiful" is the right word, and "humble" and "humbling," "humility. Those are words I resonate with, with respect to what I've experienced and seen, both inside Hughes Auditorium, but also again, just standing and observing these extraordinary crowds and lines was actually humbling. And it was just amazing and beautiful. I mean, so those are terms I really like, humility, and beautiful. I resonate strongly with that, in terms of what this was. Now, I mean, it certainly never felt like, you know, people manipulating or whatever. But as for the stewardship of the event, I just have to say, and I want to say, as clearly as I can, that I think that the college--and remember, they don't sign my paycheck, right. So, you know, I think they've done an extraordinary job stewarding this. I think they've struck just the right balance between caring for what you are calling maybe the integrity of the event, the initial kind of spirit and atmosphere there among the students and making sure the students were, you know, ultimately front and center in terms of not on the platform, but just that they didn't get completely crowded out of their own worship space. You know, they had to take measures to make sure that the students could get into the auditorium. And I think, but at the same time, they had to, they were practicing extraordinary hospitality to tens of thousands of people. And what I want to highlight that a lot of people... I don't think some of the critics, you know, of the stewarding, various aspects of the stewarding, don't think about is what it takes to provide bathrooms for that many people. There's only sort of one easily accessible men's bathroom and women's bathroom in Hughes Auditorium. So they had to bring in, you know, dozens and dozens and dozens of Porta-Johns, right.

Eddie Rester 18:17
Asbury, the town itself, is how many people? Two thousand?

Jason Vickers 18:21

Oh, it's small. Yeah, it's a small town. They had to bring in, you know, just in terms of traffic, they had to bring in the state police had to come in. Police from neighboring towns, the Danville Police Department helped out, because the little Wilmore Police Department, what do we have? You know, I'm just playful. Three people? You know.

Eddie Rester 18:43
I grew up in a small town like that. Yeah.

Jason Vickers 18:45

Yeah. So the college, the university bent over backwards, really. They got food trucks. They got... and in this was not to make a profit, but because people were standing in line for hours at a time, and the simple, the little cafeteria couldn't handle it all. And if you've never been to Wilmore, we got one Subway. That's it. If you don't like Subway, you know, you're out of luck. Now, there is actually a little Chinese place there as well. It's got very limited seating. We're not equipped to provide food for this many people. So you know, getting just those kinds of things, and try... But I have to say the people, for the most part, the people who showed up, they came in a spirit of humility. They came as genuine seekers. I've called them pilgrims elsewhere. I think there's a pilgrimage aspect to it. But, yes, I think above all, the university was very concerned to take care of the students in every way, spiritually, physically. I mean, let's face it, you've got a college campus, you know, with fairly young adult type people there, and suddenly you got, you know, 10,000 people stomping around the grounds at 11, 12 o'clock at night. I mean, in a very small town, that's a very different... And you have to... These kids, their lives have been interrupted by this event spiritually, but also in all kinds of other very practical ways, you know, that I can't imagine. You know, for me, my office is across the street. And even though we were inundated on the seminary side of the street, I can get my truck and go home, right? These college kids, they live on this campus. And I think if I were them, I think I would have felt like I was living in a fishbowl, you know, at some point. Like that all these people that are just constantly... I can't walk outside my dorm without there being an ocean of people, you know. And that would be... I think even those things, it's easy to underestimate, and the university just worked so hard to listen to its students to give them real voice in how it handled all of this, but ultimately, to try to always have their overall welfare in mind, and not just spiritual, but their overall welfare.

Chris McAlilly 21:23

I want to take the conversation in a slightly different direction, because I do think, you know, this event happened in Wilmore, and you know, it's been going on for a couple of weeks. But it sits within... Help us to contextualize it, because I do think that for folks that sit maybe outside of the world of evangelicalism, revival and revivalism, all that, kind of maybe it's loosely connected to something like spiritual manipulation or like there. It seems odd or strange, or there's a there's a fair amount of cynicism, or skepticism, maybe from the outside the evangelical world looking in, and then there are questions that turn in a political direction, or they turn in... You know, there are all kinds of these other kind of frames that people put on an experience like this. So perhaps, I wonder if you could just kind of help us think about what historically, like, what is this kind of tradition of revivalism within the evangelical world? And then kind of how do you situate this within that larger context?

Jason Vickers 22:27

You bet. I mean, it's a good question. It's an important question. I've been stunned, frankly, at how polarizing in some ways this event has been, especially social media. Now, having said that, I shouldn't have been surprised because what isn't polarizing on social media, right? I mean...

Eddie Rester 22:45
Yeah. "The sky is blue" can start a fight.

Jason Vickers 22:47

Yeah, you post a picture of your new puppy. And you know, "I can't believe you got that breed," right. "Only an idiot would buy that breed." I mean, this is so like, you know, I mean, or "I had that breed one time, and I'll never own one again." And this is your brand new puppy. Right? It's like, "Thanks?" You know, so, yeah, but the reactions have been on the one side, you know, people saying "Thanks be to God. Revival has finally arrived." You know, "we've been praying for this for years." And then on the other side, what has struck me is just how many people associate the term itself, let alone the event that it points to or represents, as somehow connected to all kinds of problematic and bad things. Sometimes I think you're right. It's about perceptions of evangelical culture. And let me just say here, that there's no one thing called evangelicalism anymore, if there ever was. Evangelical culture is very diverse, both in America and around the world. So I just don't think that word signifies one thing. I want to stress that at the outset. I think that many, a lot of the negative reaction first of all, there were a lot of misconceptions. So some people, I think, have in mind that a revival was basically like a Billy Graham crusade, right? So that the main purpose is to convert the lost, to bring people to Jesus for the first time. And if you just think about the very logic, the meaning of the word, it's not about conversion or getting people to come to Jesus, to become Christians for the first time. It's rather to revive a kind of, if you will, a passion for God, your commitment to God, your love for God. It has more of a connotation, frankly, of renewal than anything else. You know when, to use kind of insider language here, it's when our love for God, and neighbor, too, has grown cold, a revival, you know rekindles our love for God and neighbor. I mean that's really the way it's thought of from the inside. Now this is important, I think, because a lot of people, you know, it was clear, were thinking of this as something aimed at conversion. Now, when you think of it more in this renewing sense, it's really an extension, a Christian extension of the Old Testament prophetic tradition, where the Word of the Lord, the Devar Elohim, yes, the word of the Lord, you know, comes unexpectedly. It comes unpredictably. It comes in ways that are different than, say, the way in which the presence and power of God is available in the sanctuary and the priestly tradition and the altar and so forth. In the prophetic tradition, when God shows up, it's first marked often by this suddenness and a kind of interruption, or, again, unpredictable. And what it usually is accompanied with is a call for repentance, a call for the people of God to return to God, to love God with all their hearts and their neighbor as themselves, or a call to care for the orphan and widow. You know, "you've been really good at sacrifices, congratulations, but you've neglected to care for the orphan and widow." So it's a call to not just love God, to return to God as your first love, but also to keeping God's commandments to love one's neighbor. And I'm just sort of summarizing that up. But I mean, that, I think, is the biblical kind of foundation, if you will, for the notion of revival in the tradition that, frankly, both Asbury University and Asbury Theological Seminary are embedded in.

Eddie Rester 27:35

When you think about Asbury coming out of the Wesleyan tradition, revival in the Wesleyan understanding awakened Wesley and his early followers, not just to follow Jesus, but how do you change the world around you? I mean, particularly, when you think about the Methodists who swept across the United States, who founded colleges, and universities, the idea was, if you love Jesus, you love Jesus enough to love your neighbor so much that the world will end up changed because of your love for Jesus. And you know, some of the... It's hard to believe... I guess, like you, I shouldn't think that it's hard to believe. But some of these critiques that started getting lobbed very quickly at what was happening in Wilmore, and were like, "Oh, well, there's not gonna be any fruit to it. There's not going to be any fruit to it." And that was one of the big critiques. What would you say to someone who was saying that? "Well, we can't tell if it's a revival, because we haven't seen any fruit yet."

Chris McAlilly 28:38

I'm super tired of it, man. I know you didn't ask me. I know you asked Jason, but I am so tired of the way in which... I don't know. There's this... I'm so worn out by the way we beat one another up online, man.

Eddie Rester 28:53 Amen.

Chris McAlilly 28:54 Anyway, sorry.

Eddie Rester 28:54

We'll take a break from the Asbury revival here. Christians do more damage to our faith by the way we talk and treat each other, rather than willing to say something's beautiful, and I don't understand it. Let's just rip it apart, throw it to the ground and stomp on it, rather than hold it gently and let it be beautiful. You didn't want that commentary from me, Jason, but you just got it. So back to you. I mean, how do you respond to those critiques?

Jason Vickers 29:26

I agree with both of you here, and I resonate with what you just said, Eddie, I mean, I'm kind of... I was disconcerted, disappointed, saddened by the response from many Christians to be that seemingly were just so quick to be negative, for lack of a better term, just to be negative and critical, and especially to be negative and critical of not just an event, but of people--in this case the students who were at the center of this event, these young people, okay--from a great distance, without actually being here on the ground, without coming to see for yourself, to sit in your arm chair. You know, half a country away and to be presumptive and to critique and to say, "Well, this is what's really happening," or, you know, "Yeah, well, you know, we'll see if they ever do this or that after this is over." You know, first of all, I think that, you know, I'll just say in terms of the whole fruit thing, you know, my sense is that, in events like this, of course, there will be people who, you know, 10 years from now, their lives may not seem dramatically different than they were a week before this started. But there will be other people who will be dramatically changed by this. And then I want to hold out for a third possibility, which is, there may be people that kind of go back to business as usual for a few years. But this may linger, and it may be like a seed that sprouts years down the road, that the Holy Spirit brings it about, that it blossoms a decade or two from now. You just don't know. I mean, this kind of thing, the transformation of lives by God is mysterious, finally, and we never know what God will use to bring that about in any of our lives. And when I say transformation, I don't mean so that we are morally upright or uptight. I mean, so that we become agents of healing and grace and mercy and love in the world. It's, again, this kind of love for God that leads to love for neighbor. Or to use a slightly different contrast, you know, compare our set of terms very Wesleyan, you know, that works of piety and works of love or works of mercy, these things, they both kind of depend on each other. hey need one another. They fuel one another. And so I think that setting those at odds with one another is a mistake, for one. A second thing is that, and I've been wanting to say this a lot the last couple of weeks, is that we don't have to view this kind of event or this kind of phenomenon in a way that's competitive with the regular, what I like to call the sacramental life of the church. The week in week out, the Word in sacrament, worship, preaching of the Gospel, reading of the scriptures, receiving of communion, and then by the way, being turned out by the Eucharistic liturgy to go and be Christ's Body and Blood for the sake of the world. That the Eucharist, rightly understood, doesn't simply orient us to God, but it ultimately orients us to our neighbors well. So we keep kind of coming back over that ground I know, but all in the interest of trying to resist these false dichotomies, and criticisms that, frankly, are--I hate to say it--but kind of silly. They're not just unfounded. But this is just, you know, it's just silly.

Eddie Rester 33:47

Let's see what happens. You know, when I think about the moments in my life, whether it was retreats, or different ministries, youth growing up, the moments where I grew the most were, looking back on them, somewhat indescribable, chaotic, mysterious. And I think that, as you look at scripture, as you look at the big moments in the life of the church, even I'm gonna go back to John Wesley again, this heart strangely warmed moment that he wrote about that really set him free from his past so God could use him in the future. I mean, people have written a million books about this strange thing that happened to John Wesley that wasn't in the standard life of the church, but set him free.

Chris McAlilly 34:31

I think that whether it's within or beyond the ordinary life of the church, you know, I do think what's unique about that event is that there are a lot of things going on in England in the 18th century, of which John Wesley was just one character in the stream. But there was, you know, there's a singularity to his experience. We had a young woman who's a college freshman at our church, she was baptized on Sunday. And, you know, someone in our community was wrestling with, 'Do I need to stay here for the baptism or go to Wilmore to experience this profound phenomenon?" And you know, where we ended up landing is stay and then go, because, like in the life of this one young woman, I mean, it's...Being baptized, what is for her, the manifest presence and power of God, bringing revival in her life. And I think that sometimes we get drawn either to towards the big thing, or towards the small thing, depending on our temperament, personality, experience, etc. But one of the things I really appreciate about some of the ways you're framing this up, Jason, is that both it's not an either/or. It's being able to perceive what God is doing, either in a large or small way, and to respond to it with an openness of heart and a curiosity and, ultimately a gratitude. I really appreciate that, just framing up the prophetic and sacramental strands of the church's life as two different kind of dimensions of what God may be up to. So I appreciate it.

Jason Vickers 36:19

I sometimes call it you know, the biblical modes of holiness, right, the priestly and the prophetic. And I think those then get embodied in all kinds of ways in the history of Christianity. And those modes continue. They get extended. But, you know, let me kind of just bring one other person into this conversation briefly here. Over the last week and a half, on more than one occasion, I've seen people mention Billy Abraham on social media. Partly because, you know, he's someone kind of known for his interest in revival and renewal movements in the church. And also, it was not uncommon for Billy to say you never know, we may, God may bring us another revival at some point, that kind of thing. And people have been remembering him during this event. And what I want to say here is that invoking his personal and theological legacy for a moment, is that no one at Asbury is--I just want to make this very clear--I don't know anyone at Asbury that's saying--including the students, right--that this kind of event, this kind of happening, phenomenon, right? If you want to call it revival, fine, that this is somehow normative, and that this ought to be the way that everybody must experience the grace, the mercy, the healing, the love of God, right, the transforming love of God. And what Billy's life and legacy and work has to do with that is, you know, that he was always pointing to the almost endless variety of ways that the Holy Spirit works in the world to bring about our transformation, so that we come to love God and neighbor. So, he would talk about the means of grace, both in the tighter, stricter sense, you know, but he was always open to the irregular forms of grace as well. For him, for one person, it may be reading of the scriptures. For someone else, it may be an event that people are calling a revival. For others, it may be the Eucharist. I mean, I will go on record and say that in my own life, probably the single most decisive encounter with the holy for me came while contemplating the van Eycks' Mystic Lamb of God altarpiece in the Cathedral Church, at the time, in Ghent, Belgium.

Chris McAlilly 39:22 Come on.

Jason Vickers 39:22 You know.

Chris McAlilly 39:23 Come on!

Jason Vickers 39:24
Right. And that, you know, but just like I don't think that everybody needs to go and sit before...

Chris McAlilly 39:35
Except for clearly Eddie, me, and you. We should all go together.

Eddie Rester 39:38
That's right. We should all go together.

Jason Vickers 39:40
We'll turn this into a roadshow.

Chris McAlilly 39:42 [LAUGHTER]

Jason Vickers 39:44

Yeah, I mean, but nobody is saying that this ought to, this revival of a certain kind is something that everybody... Like no. If it happens in a town near you, and you feel led to go and God uses it in an important way in your own journey, then we will all celebrate with you. But I'm with Billy on this score. I think that God meets each of us in the way that is best suited and is going to be most effective for us in terms of bringing about our transformation in our love for God and neighbor.

Chris McAlilly 40:26
Yeah, I think so-- sorry to interrupt, Eddie.

Eddie Rester 40:29 No, you go ahead.

Chris McAlilly 40:29

Yeah. So, you know, for me, one of the things that was, that is difficult for me in this I had to break down certain preconceptions of Asbury Seminary. I was a... I went to Candler School of Theology and my father grandfather did before me. And so there was this whole built up thing related to Asbury that I don't completely understand. But it was, it emerges in this long history and these, like, kind of rivalries. You know, it's like, it really is kind of inside baseball. But they were set up over time, really kind of the liberal Protestant strand of the church and a kind of more evangelical, holiness Wesleyan strand. And for me, I got to a point when I was in my early 20s, where I kind of rejected both of them. You know, I just, I wasn't compelled by what I saw to be quite sentimental worship, contemporary worship music that was happening on kind of the evangelical holiness side. And I got to the point where I've kind of felt like the liberal Protestant side just didn't have a lot of hope to offer. It was mostly what I did. And if I couldn't get it done, then maybe God couldn't get it done. And so, you know, I think for me, it was, I found myself having to pay attention to the longings of my own heart. And that led me in the direction of Catholic theology, going to these vast cathedrals in Europe and other places, really on a kind of pilgrimage, you know, looking for something that I that I could latch on to that was real, that was true, that was beautiful and good. And I, you know, I think that's one of the things I kind of come back to is that, you know, I think it's interesting that you mentioned that painting in that place. That's one thing that we wanted to get to, but we hadn't really talked about is just paying attention to the longings of your heart and when it is that you want to respond, by way of pilgrimage. This is a long strand within certainly Roman Catholic piety. It's not so much the case within Protestant piety, although we do it. We do it in certain ways. I wonder if you could just tease some of that out.

Jason Vickers 42:40

So Wow. So first, quickly, just like evangelicalism has changed over time, and it's not any one thing. It's diverse. The same thing is true of institutions like Asbury, the university, the seminary. You know, I've seen people say that Asbury has been this been this one thing and hasn't changed at all over all these years. And that's simply not true. Asbury has evolved and has changed in a lot of ways. I can give you some very specific examples, if you like, but it has evolved. And so and even today, it's not sort of one thing. I mean, my colleagues, we represent a range of views on any number of things. And we're wired differently in terms of our spirituality. So it's not, you know, there's not sort of this one thing called Asbury. As to what you were saying, though, about revival and paying attention to the heart and so forth. I mean, look, I mean, we, insofar as you know, we flow out of this pietist, Wesleyan tradition, or whether you're, even the liberal... You know, I was really good friends with Ty Inbody, who taught at United Seminary forever. And when he retired, I took his place there on the faculty. And Ty and I became friends, and he self identified as a liberal and for him, Protestant liberalism was an extension of pietism. It was absolutely an extension. He would, I mean, if you tried to claim that those two things were enemies, Ty would be your enemy. Right. So the thing with pietism, though is you're talking about the heart. I mean, look, maybe revival--and let's just set aside all the baggage for a minute that has accrued that term--maybe the real locus of revival just is our hearts, all of us. And the way that God renews and revives the heart for all of us, it can differ from person to person, the means, the mechanism that God might use. And so for some, it may be that God calls them to some kind of pilgrimage. Maybe it's a pilgrimage to Wilmore this past week. For others it's a pilgrimage to cathedrals in Europe. Sometimes we, we don't even know that God has us on a journey, right, and that God... a journey that's going to culminate with the renewal of the revival of our hearts until it happens. That was the case for me with the van Eyck altarpiece. I was just there checking out an example of early modern Flemish art. I was not on a religious pilgrimage. I was in a kind of high art, wine swilling phase of my life, right? This was many years ago now. Right. And then, you know, to use a Billy Abraham-ism, I suddenly got mugged by the Holy Spirit. I didn't... I wasn't a pilgrim in the sense of I had mapped out this long journey to Belgium that had van Eycks' altarpiece as its destination. I had already been to the Rubens house and all kinds of other places, checking out Rubens' paintings and whatnot, and then had this incredibly profound experience that actually did renew, was very renewing of my love for God, in a way that had really brought about profound change in my life from that day until this. Now, having said that, so again, you know, it could be an intentional "you sent; I need to go on this pilgrimage," or it may be something that interrupts your otherwise what you thought you were doing. It may be the Eucharist. It may be scripture. It may be preaching. It may be simply gathering together with a few friends and praying and singing in a very humble way to God. That's, you know, the so but the... Maybe the real locus of revival and renewal is not finally Hughes Auditorium, but it's the human heart.

Eddie Rester 46:58

Right. Jason, thank you so much for your time today. It's always a joy to talk to you. You've been a friend of the podcast and a friend of ours. And just really appreciate you sharing your experience, but also helping us think more broadly, about the conversation and what's happening, not just at Asbury University, but what can happen for us as well. So thank you for your time today.

Chris McAlilly 47:23

Yeah, and this, we're recording this on Tuesday before Ash Wednesday. And one of the things I've been thinking about as we go into this is that really is a journey, not in space, but it is journey through time. And it's a different kind of pilgrimage. And if you know the heart is the locus of revival, and it's not, you know, Wilmore, Kentucky, or any one place, although, you know, space is important. I do think there's this deep... I don't know. There's something deep and wise about setting aside a time where you can explore what's going on in your heart. What's really there, what needs to be set aside what needs to be picked up. And to be super honest about that before God, and to kind of discover what it is that you've been giving yourself to. And ultimately, maybe what you want at the center of all that. So, if you're listening to this on Thursday, after Ash Wednesday, you're invited on that journey. I hope that it becomes a pilgrimage for you and that by the time you get to Easter Sunday this year, you might experience that: revival, renewal, restoration, resurrection. I think that'll be my prayer, if you're listening to this today. So thank you for being with us, Jason. It's a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much.

Eddie Rester 48:44
[OUTRO] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, the best way to help us is to like, subscribe, or leave a review.

Chris McAlilly 48:52

If you would like to support this work financially or if you have an idea for a future guest, you can go to theweightpodcast.com. [END OUTRO]

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