0032 - The Weight - Ray Mabus - Engage Your Moment
Shownotes:
When it comes down to it, we all have similar hopes for our future. We want financial security, a good education for our children, a strong career ahead of us, and overall we all want to know that we will be taken care of. When we place too much emphasis on only the issues that matter to us, we lose the sense of empathy and vision for the common good that is vital to our lives as engaged citizens. When we consider the scale of the issues in our country, these issues often become impersonal. How can we contribute to the well-being of our world and seek justice as public servants?
Secretary Ray Mabus knows a good deal about the rigorous fight for the soul of our nation. Mabus, a Mississippi native, has been involved in the state, national, and international levels of politics. He has served as the Governor of Mississippi, the Ambassador to Saudi Arabia, and the Secretary of the Navy under President Obama. As the youngest person elected to serve as Mississippi’s governor, Mabus understands the obstacles that come with devoting one’s life to public service. He worked alongside Governor Winter to pass the first Education Reform Act in the country to ensure a bright future for Mississippi’s children, and he opened all jobs in the Navy & Marines to women.
He joins Eddie and Chris to discuss how to maintain strong relationships in politics, the struggles he faced as an up-and-coming politician, the commitment we all need to make to public service, the effect of his family’s encouragement and wisdom, and the world he wants his daughters to thrive in. Mabus challenges us to act wisely on the current moment and consider the impact we can have wherever we are.
The Weight Afterthoughts:
We've realized that a lot of great conversation actually happens AFTER we say goodbye to our guests and turn the microphones off. So, we decided to turn the mics back on (and a camera) and create a new segment called, Afterthoughts.
This will live on our new YouTube channel and you can find our Afterthoughts on this episode NOW!
Full Transcript:
Chris McAlilly : 0:00
I'm Chris McAlilly, not from Ackerman.
Eddie Rester : 0:03
And I'm Eddie Rester from Ackerman.
Chris McAlilly : 0:05
We are interviewing today another person from Ackerman.
Eddie Rester : 0:09
We are. Welcome to The Weight. I'm gonna say it. You didn't say, "Welcome to The Weight."
Chris McAlilly : 0:13
Well, they know by now it's The Weight, man.
Eddie Rester : 0:15
It's The Weight.
Chris McAlilly : 0:16
People know it's The Weight.
Eddie Rester : 0:17
They know. That's why they've already clicked the button. So today's guest is Secretary Ray Mabus. Ray Mabus, raised in Ackerman, Mississippi, went to Ole Miss, Harvard Law School. He has served in politics in some form or another, really, since the late 1970s. He worked with William Winter. He was our state auditor in Mississippi, the governor of Mississippi. He was Ambassador to Saudi Arabia, and then under President Obama, Secretary of the Navy. He has had a long, really successful career in politics, not just elected politics, but also appointed politics.
Chris McAlilly : 0:57
Because the culture is talking about politics, we wanted to engage it as well. That's kind of our thing on The Weight. And I think the, if you're looking for a thread here, I think the thread is the tendency in a moment of polarization towards just complete apathy and disengagement, just checking out. I think what Secretary Mabus points to in his long career is just being engaged, being engaged in the particular moment you're given to live in.
Eddie Rester : 1:29
And he brings a lot to the table, not just in terms of experience, but as he reflects on his daughters and their life--he has three daughters--and what he hopes for them, what he sees in them. And so he offers, I think, to us some possibilities for how we might engage in the moment that we're given, whether we like it or not.
Chris McAlilly : 1:53
It's also thinking about politics more broadly, not just as a competition for who gets the power, but
Eddie Rester : 2:00
Voting. That's not all of it.
Chris McAlilly : 2:01
Yeah, I think he wants to... I mean, he's lived into an understanding of public service, and he talks a lot about that. And I think if you're struggling to figure out what would be a place to start, he offers a lot of different ways into engaging in a shared common life through political engagement, or social or civic engagement.
Eddie Rester : 2:25
I think you're gonna enjoy the conversation, so make sure that you share it, make sure that you subscribe, all those things. We appreciate you listening every single week.`
Chris McAlilly : 2:35
Eddie appreciates you. I appreciate you, as well.
Eddie Rester : 2:38
And I appreciate you, Chris.
Chris McAlilly : 2:40
And I appreciate you, Eddie.
Eddie Rester : 2:41
I hope you enjoy the episode.
Chris McAlilly : 2:43
What a weird way to end that.
Eddie Rester : 2:44
It's been a weird day.
Chris McAlilly : 2:46
It's a long day.
Eddie Rester : 2:47
[INTRO] Let's be honest, there are some topics that are too heavy for a 20 minute sermon. There are issues that need conversation, not just explanation.
Chris McAlilly : 2:59
We believe that the church is called to engage in a way that honors the weightiness and importance of these topics for how we live faithfully today. We'll cover everything from art to mental health, social injustice to the future of the church.
Eddie Rester : 3:11
If it's something that culture talks about, we need to be talking about it, too. [END INTRO] Well, today we're here with Secretary Ray Mabus. We're thankful that he's taken some time to be with us. Thank you, Secretary, for for being with us today.
Ray Mabus : 3:26
Very happy to be with you, Eddie.
Chris McAlilly : 3:28
Glad to talk with you today.
Eddie Rester : 3:30
You've had quite the career. And we'll talk a little bit about some of that. But the first thing I just want to make sure we touch base on is that you are not just someone who's been in politics for several decades now. But you are an actor as well, I understand. You...
Ray Mabus : 3:47
That's right. I'm actually a union member. I'm a member of the Screen Actors Guild.
Eddie Rester : 3:52
Are you really?
Ray Mabus : 3:55
I'm a working actor. I was a recurring character on NCIS. I was Agent Ray. I was the captain of the aircraft carrier in the movie "Battleship."
Eddie Rester : 4:10
I saw that movie, and I didn't see you in it. So I'm gonna have to go back and watch it.
Ray Mabus : 4:13
Aw, come on now. You must have blinked.
Chris McAlilly : 4:16
We've been working on Eddie's prescription for his glasses. We're gonna have to keep that up a little bit.
Eddie Rester : 4:21
That's right. Yeah. [LAUGHTER]
Ray Mabus : 4:21
It was Liam Neeson and me on the bridge, and my line was, "Commence air operations."
Chris McAlilly : 4:24
[LAUGHTER]
Eddie Rester : 4:32
I'm sure you gave that convincingly.
Ray Mabus : 4:34
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I was
Chris McAlilly : 4:35
You gotta nail that one line there.
Ray Mabus : 4:37
I nailed that one. And then in the TNT series, "The Last Ship," I was actually the Secretary of the Navy, but they had killed me off before then.
Chris McAlilly : 4:50
[LAUGHTER]
Ray Mabus : 4:50
It was, you know, it was about a pandemic, not unlike now, but the Navy ship was one of the few survivors and they were chasing a cure. And they found a DVD in the ruins of the White House.
Chris McAlilly : 5:11
Wow.
Eddie Rester : 5:12
Wow.
Ray Mabus : 5:13
And my favorite line that they had in there was they put the DVD on, on the ship on TV and it was me saying, "Any naval vessel that hears this, here are your orders." And one of the actors looked and said, "That really is the Secretary of the Navy." So, you know, I haven't given up my day job, but we'll see if this goes anywhere.
Eddie Rester : 5:47
There you go. Well, you know, you're an Ackerman boy. We were both raised in Ackerman, Mississippi, so it's good to hear an Ackerman boy spreading his wings, trying some new things out there.
Ray Mabus : 5:57
I'm really proud to be from Ackerman. It was one of the great places to grow up. And, you know, we, you and I talked about it, we had two governors in 32 years and a Miss America in between. So there was something special about a town of around 1500 people.
Chris McAlilly : 6:18
Small Town, Mississippi is, I mean, there's a unique charm there. Eddie's always touting the Ackerman, is it the Indians?
Eddie Rester : 6:25
We were the Ackerman Indians back then. Yeah.
Ray Mabus : 6:29
Now the Ackerman high school does not exist. It's Choctaw County High.
Eddie Rester : 6:32
We lost the red lights, and then we lost the high school. But still a great, great town. Obviously the reason we wanted to talk with you today is we want to talk politics. You are a veteran of politics at the state level, the national level, the international level as an appointee, as an ambassador to Saudi Arabia. And I remember, I remember the day you came to Ackerman and announced your bid to be governor of Mississippi. I was sitting in an auditorium there in Ackerman. They had made us all write out questions on 3x5 cards. And I didn't get to ask my question that day.
Chris McAlilly : 6:34
It's your big moment, Eddie. It's your big moment, buddy.
Eddie Rester : 6:57
I don't remember what my question was. But if I remember, I'll ask it of you. But so you know, my memory of you is that. That you worked with Governor Winter, particularly on a lot of education projects for the state of Mississippi, State Auditor, Governor, Ambassador, and then Secretary of the Navy. And I just wonder, as you think about all of the places that you have served in the political system, what's been the place that you felt most effective? Or maybe what was one of your favorite moments across your political career?
Ray Mabus : 7:53
I'll take the prerogative of being the guest and give you a couple. But I think that the thing that I felt best about my political career, the one moment that made me the happiest, or the most satisfied, was in 1982, I was legal counsel to Governor Winter. And the night we passed the Education Reform Act. It was the first Education Reform Act in the country. Mississippi before then was one of two states that didn't have public kindergartens. It was the only state without compulsory education, a relic of the Civil Rights Movement. And the notion--and we had worked on this for two and a half years. And I had, myself, made 700 speeches on its behalf. And it was a very broad and very progressive and very far reaching bill. And, you know, there was a group of us that had worked on Governor Winter's staff, and we were all in our late 20s, early 30s. And we went out that night afterwards, and the feeling that we had done something that was going to help people for decades, and going to help children that hadn't been born and their children, and that nobody would ever know who did it. That Governor Winter would get the credit, as he so richly deserved. And nobody would ever know of the stuff that we had done. And that was one of the... I mean, it's odd, but that was one of the great feelings in politics. It matched winning, you know, election night, when you win. And then the second thing is at Navy. Navy is so big. It's 900,000 people. It's $170 billion budget. The largest single discretionary line item in the federal budget, in fact. You have both the Navy and the Marines. You have worldwide responsibilities. And we were so big, and had such huge, you know, ability to do things that you could affect not only people at Navy and the Marines and the civilians, but the civilian world as well. I mean, you know, I opened all jobs in the Navy and Marines to women, and overruled the Marines to do that. The notion that the only qualification to get a job ought to be the ability to do the job and everything else is irrelevant. Gender, sexual orientation, what color your eyes are, whatever. And, you know, I moved the Navy off fossil fuels as a warfighting measure. And we were big enough to bring a market, we sort of kick started the solar and wind and biofuels market in the US, because we used so, so many fuels. And so the feeling that you could do some of these things that would change the direction of the country, through the military. And, you know, these people that are sailors and marines that raise their hands in an all-volunteer force and say, "Send me. I'll volunteer to go," dealing with them. And I, by the time I left, I was most travel senior executive in US government history: 1,342,544 miles.
Chris McAlilly : 12:02
That's a lot. That's a long way from Mississippi.
Eddie Rester : 12:04
That's a long way from Mississippi.
Chris McAlilly : 12:06
I want to come back to Mississippi politics in the mid 80s.
Ray Mabus : 12:11
Sure.
Chris McAlilly : 12:11
It's so good to have you on the podcast today, Secretary Mabus. I graduated high school from Tupelo, so I actually graduated with Jack Reed the Third and got to know the Reed clan up there. And I actually attended Jack Reed's funeral. And Billy Crews spoke that day, who ran his campaign against you. And he said, when he was a young man, or I guess, in the wake of that election that you won for governor, he said people would ask him what about his politics? What kind of a, you know, are you a Republican or a Democrat? And he said, he would always say, he was a William Winter Democrat and a Jack Reed Republican. And I thought that was an interesting way to describe himself. For me, it was one of those moments of recognition of just the distance that we have in kind of the rhetorical political sphere from the mid '80s in Mississippi, because there was distance between you and Jack, but there's a lot of commonality as well. There was some shared... I don't know, there's, like, a shared spirit back in the mid '80s that I just feel like we lost.
Ray Mabus : 13:30
Oh, I think we have, too. Jack Reed and I were good friends before we ran against each other and became good friends afterwards. I mean, during the election, not so much, but he was so brave. I mean, in the '60s, during the Civil Rights Movement, he went around the state saying, "We've got to keep our schools open," when people were saying, "We're going to shut them down instead of integrate." And, you know, you went to school in Tupelo, one of the best public school systems, not just in Mississippi, but anywhere. And the commitment to education to, you know, improving everybody's lives. I mean, Jack... Jack was way ahead of his time. And I've told people, the last three people in that race. So, it was Mike Sturdivant and me in the Democratic runoff. And then Jack Reed in the general. Jack Reed had gone to, I believe it was, Vanderbilt undergraduate and then got a graduate degree from NYU. Mike Sturdivant had gone to Harvard Business School. I had gone Ole Miss and then to Harvard Law School. You know, the types of folks, and I'll leave myself out of it, but just the type of people that Mike Sturdivant and Jack Reed are, that were willing to run for governor then with all the things that you had to put up with, and all the attacks and stuff, but they were willing to do it. And I've said, I didn't say it during the election, but I've certainly said it a lot afterwards, Mississippi would have been in good hands no matter who won that election. And, you know, obviously, I thought I would do a better job. But you're absolutely right. We were, Mike and Jack and I, were all friends. And we fought hard. But we didn't try to destroy the other person.
Chris McAlilly : 15:47
I feel like that's one of the things that's so deeply discouraging, as a young Mississippian. And as someone who is watching the larger political scene unfold on the national level, it just is... I mean, the extent to which we hold one another in contempt and are unable to, I don't know, assume that politics is... How you negotiate your convictions with people that are like you, regardless of your party, or whatever, and then those who are different from you. But you're going to come to some vision of a shared common life. I long for that. And I feel like, I just wonder as you reflect back on your career, and as you have watched everything unfold, I'm sure you've got a unique perspective. What do you see that's unfolding now and that has changed through the years?
Ray Mabus : 16:51
Well, you know, like we said, I ran for governor in 1987. And, you know, there were 10 people running for governor that year. And so you had Jack Reed, you had Mike Sturdivant, you had me, you had Ed Pittman, who was the sitting Attorney General, you had Maurice Dantin who had been the US Senate nominee. You had John Arthur Eaves who had run for governor a couple times before. But these were all serious people. These were people who, you know, that you knew, that you, like I said, you didn't try to destroy each other. Though, the one thing I will say about that '87 race is because Jack was running as a Republican, you know, at some point, I think it was about this time in early September of the election, he was behind me about the same amount that it ended up being, you know, seven or eight points. And the National Republican Party changed his political consultant. And the person they sent in was Roger Ailes.
Eddie Rester : 18:14
Really.
Ray Mabus : 18:15
And it was, yeah. And all of a sudden--Jack had had these TV ads about education and inclusion and fairness, and all of a sudden, all the Black faces disappeared out of Jack's ads. And the attacks got very personal. And Jack and I talked about it afterwards, because I had him to the mansion two or three times while I was governor. I mean, you usually don't invite your opponent to come in and have lunch. But, you know, he and I both regretted that and some of the things that happened. But you know, you look at... And I'll name some names. I mean, Newt Gingrich in the '90s, who sort of moved away from facts and just launching attacks for the sake of power and with no factual evidence to back it up and just the sort of bomb throwing mentality. And then you layer on this social media that you can be anonymous. You know, social media rewards people who are outrageous, and who say the most extreme things. And I think you're seeing in things like running for governor of Mississippi. Instead of 10 people, which was in '87, you know, you're lucky to get two that are willing to run. And there are just, so many people are self-selecting out of politics because they just don't want to go through it. They don't want to put their family through it. And it's a really... It's a hard decision. I mean, I've got three children, three girls that are strong, independent, incredibly intelligent. And the older two, who are 30, and 28, have gone into public service. Both of them. The younger one is 19 and still in college. But, you know, we need people like them. We need people who will go in there, and we need to... I mean, I try once a year. Sometimes I'm successful. And sometimes I'm not. But I try once a year to, for about a month, to just unplug. You know, I don't read the paper. I don't watch. I don't do any sort of emails or social media. And, you know, I have a perfect record: I have been on cable TV a lot. But I have never watched cable TV. Because it just doesn't give you any news.
Eddie Rester : 21:01
Right.
Ray Mabus : 21:24
And so, I see this sort of... I don't have a good answer. But it's tearing this country apart, this polarization. And like you say, most people, when you get right down to it, they're interested in the same thing, you know: a good education for their children, a good job, a future, healthcare in whatever form you want to talk about it--but that if they get sick, they know that they'll be taken care of. I mean, those are pretty universal in this country. But the way that they're treated now--and the media has a big hand in this. The media loves conflict and loves horse races. And so, I've seen all this. I mean, it was pretty mean when I was there. But it was nothing, nothing like it is today.
Eddie Rester : 22:50
I remember the first negative advertising I ever saw was the bumper sticker "Save us from Mabus," and it made me mad.
Ray Mabus : 22:58
Yeah. [CHUCKLES]
Eddie Rester : 23:01
I, you know, I wonder,
Ray Mabus : 23:02
I still have one of those. [LAUGHTER]
Eddie Rester : 23:05
I wonder, if you could construct a political system that in your mind, again, from your experience, that functioned well, that was helpful, to help people find those things that you just talked about: education, jobs, health care, what would that look like, maybe, or what would be some of the guiding principles that you would think could help with that? Or would help people have a functioning political system? Because we're going to have a political system, no matter what. When people get together, there are politics.
Ray Mabus : 23:42
Oh, yeah. Yeah, when you get more than two people together, you're gonna have some
Eddie Rester : 23:47
Somebody's getting voted out. Yeah.
Ray Mabus : 23:50
I mean, the first thing is the Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan quote, "Everybody's entitled to their own opinions. They're not entitled to their own facts." You would base it on provable things. You couldn't just make stuff up. And people, if people who tried to do that would be called on it, and would lose if they did that. Second, you would take a lot of the money out. Money is so corrosive in politics. And it's not, you know, just that some people get more access than others, although that's true, but it's that candidates spend so much of their time raising money, instead of meeting voters and governing and trying to figure out what's the best thing to do here. And, you know, I actually sort of liked in the '70s, '80s and before then, the FCC had a thing called the Fairness Doctrine on TV. So if somebody launched an attack on you, even if it was, like, a news anchor or something, you got to respond on the same station, at the same time, the next day or two days later, or whatever. And that this lack of accountability, lack of civility in politics.... and I think that we can go a long way toward doing that if we as citizens just let our political folks know, politicians and those working for them and the media and things, that we're not going to support you. We're gonna vote you out, if you lie to us, if you misrepresent things all the time, if you have your facts and then there's the provable facts. But it's gonna be really hard. In a perfect world, you have that '87 gubernatorial campaign, where you've got two people--I know Jack Reed was qualified, I think I was--who had the best interest of the state at heart. And who really fought hard and really fought passionately, but fought on the issues. And then when it was over with, tried to work together. That the important thing was the state and not their own personal career.
Chris McAlilly : 27:14
One of the things I hear kind of running through the conversation is the importance of institutions and the difficulty, particularly within our political institutions, for good people to engage. It's easier to go into business or other other fields. But institutions, I think you say it right there at the end, that, you know, that the politics can be a platform to just elevate a person's political career aspirations, but it can also be public service. You mentioned that a minute ago. How do you think of that? How do you think of the engagement in institutional life, regardless of what the form or what the office might be? How do you think of that as public service? What does it mean to be a public servant, I guess, in your eyes?
Ray Mabus : 28:03
Well, I think, and I may be naive in believing this, but I've believed it all my life, that public service is one of the highest callings you can have. That it's just that: it's service. It's doing something in the service of a thing that's bigger than you. And I do a lot of, well I did a lot when I was secretary and when I was governor, college graduations. And in fact I did one at UVA, I think, Eddie, you had already graduated from the Darden School by the time I did it.
Eddie Rester : 28:47
Yeah, my brother Jimmy, yeah was at Darden. Yeah.
Ray Mabus : 28:51
Oh, that's right. Yeah. Jimmy was at Darden. But anyway, in those graduation speeches, I talked about the importance of being engaged. You don't have to run for something. But you've got to know about the issues of your time. You don't have to work inside government, but you have to vote. And you have to not vote blindly. Not just, "Okay, that person is a Democrat," or "That person or Republican. That's why I'm going to vote for him." But to really figure out, you know, what they're all about. And I think the way you put it, to do it in an organizational, in a structured way. You know, one of the things about social media is everybody's an expert today.
Eddie Rester : 29:56
University of Facebook Medical School, University of Facebook Political Science, Theology, Legal, yeah, the whole thing, Law School, it's all there.
Ray Mabus : 30:07
And they're just not. One of the things I used to say, when I was running for governor, when I was governor, and I believe so deeply, is democracy is a really hard system. And you can pick easier political systems, way easier. Democracy depends on everybody that lives there being involved in some way. And the more educated the populace is, the people that live there are, the better the democracy is going to function. And so education is not just about getting a better job, although it certainly that's part of it. But it's also about understanding the world that you're in. And, you know, again, there is nothing wrong with going into business, and making money. Nothing wrong at all, a lot of things right about providing for you and for your family. But in some way, do something bigger than yourself. In some way, do something that nobody's gonna know about. And the example I gave is the person I worked with who was my assistant for 10 years in Mississippi, her dad was a farmer in the Delta. And at his funeral, probably six or eight people came up to her, Black and white, and said, "Your dad put me through college, gave me the money to go to college." And that's the first she'd ever heard of it. He had told nobody. That notion, that doing something for the greater good, is one of the things we've lost. And I hope we can... I think that--and I've lost track of what you call generations now. Gen Z, or whatever, that my kids are millennials. You know, I'm hoping that this notion of participation, of sacrifice, of service, is something that, you know, whose time is coming again. But it's hard to break through the noise.
Eddie Rester : 33:01
One of the things that you mentioned there, "the greater good," I've sensed in the last maybe five or six years, particularly, a loss of the great, the common good that I remember. I think Secretary Espy spoke at my graduation from Ole Miss. And he said, you know, either the ship is going to rise together, or it's going to sink. We're all going to rise or sink together. And I think that sense of, "we've got to work towards all of us rising, or we will all fall" somehow has been lost along the way. And I do think about not even just the '87 election, but even the some of the Clinton years with some of the things that they had to work at across the aisle, that you just don't see a lot of hand holding, we're going to do this together, we're going to make compromises along the way, so that we can work towards a vision of everyone prospering. I think our kids are going to get that. My kids have a strong sense of common good and justice and seeing things through different eyes. And so maybe, maybe it will loop back around with the younger generations at some point.
Chris McAlilly : 34:23
I think that one of the things that I see is just you have contested stories of what the good is going to be or what it should be, or, I mean, really, who gets to call the shots on ordering the the way power gets distributed. And I do think there's some heavy, intense conversations. I mean, I think particularly around matters of race and if police forces are using their authority and power in particular communities. Those are things that are coming up through the course of conversations this summer. I feel like when you get to a larger level, when you get to the state or national level, it's harder than when you're trying to order the common good in Ackerman, Mississippi, you know. There's something about the scale of it that makes it difficult. It becomes impersonal. And people have a harder time seeing one another as people. How did you overcome that?
Ray Mabus : 35:38
Well, I think that we are, you know, to go back to what you just said about generational things, I mean, the fact that there were Black Lives Matter marches all across Mississippi, I think it's a very hopeful sign. It's absolutely true, to Mike Espy's point, if the ship is sinking, it doesn't matter which side you're sitting on. It doesn't matter. You know, nothing matters except get the water out. And some of the things that have just been so ingrained. I know, I'll go back to the '87 election. I really believed strongly then that Mississippi could lead the country in things like racial reconciliation, because we were too small to be geographically segregated much, and people knew each other. And I thought when the laws came down that separated people, that we knew each other, and that we could get past this. But when people try to use that for political advantage, you know... And I do believe that slavery and segregation are the original sins of this country. But I think now we're having, or some people are having, more honest conversations about unconscious things that people do, just things that you don't even think about, but are hurtful to a different ethnic group. Or, as I said, I've got three daughters, and just watching how women have been shoved aside and treated differently. Somebody said, you know, Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers--Ginger Rogers did the same thing Fred Astaire did, she just did it backwards and in high heels. And that every woman in business or politics, or, you know, you pick the field, but they have to do it better, just to get to the same place. And we still don't pay women enough. We still don't take them seriously enough. And not just because of my daughters, but I just find that deeply, deeply offensive. The fact that we're beginning to have conversations, that things like gender shouldn't matter in terms of what you can do. Things like where you're born, or what the economics of your family is when you're born. You shouldn't have less of an opportunity if you're born into poverty. Because if people do have less of an opportunity, we're not gonna make it as we should as a country, or as a state, or as a town.
Eddie Rester : 39:43
We miss out on those contributions that maybe we need to move forward, is what we miss. We deny all of us the ability to move forward when we deny people the ability to become what they've been created to be and to do what they can do.
Chris McAlilly : 40:01
I think that part of it is just you miss out on gifts that may be available. Assuming that there are gifts for the common good that are out there that, you know, there's some mechanism to receive those gifts for the good of the whole. I want to circle back around to this notion of engagement and public service and how that kind of arose in your life. But I kind of want to start maybe at a moment where, you know, I'm sure there were moments where you you wanted to disengage. I'm sure there were moments where you were feeling despair at the state of things, and you wanted to kind of check out at some point in your career. Can you tell us a story about one of those times? I mean, I think as a way of trying to point towards resilience and overcoming?
Ray Mabus : 40:48
Oh, yeah, that's an easy one. I lost my reelection race. And I lost it to an overt white supremacist in Kirk Fordice. And, you know... I told somebody once, it took about six months before I felt like I could breathe right. And I think somebody said that when you lose in politics, it's not bad enough that you know, it's that your mother knows, and worse, your mother's friends know. And this notion that--and, you know, I made a lot of mistakes as governor. I pushed, I think, too hard and too fast to make change because I was impatient. I was 39 years old. I had just turned 39 when I got elected.
Eddie Rester : 41:45
The youngest governor at that time, weren't you?
Ray Mabus : 41:48
Yeah, I was the youngest in Mississippi in 150 years, and the youngest in the country then. But, I mean, losing in politics, and the character-building aspects of losing in politics are vastly overrated. But to lose to somebody like that, to lose to somebody that was just a throwback to the segregationist past was really, really painful. And, you know, one of the people that really helped me was William Winter. He called me up on inaugural day, when I was leaving office, and he said, "I've been there. I've been defeated by people I didn't think deserve the office. But what I'm telling you is, there's lots of life ahead." And, you know, I just couldn't stay--I don't know, it's in my DNA, somehow--I just couldn't stay uninvolved. Because by then I had Elizabeth and Annie, my two oldest, and to disengage meant to not care about the world that they were going to grow up in. And so it was really hard. It was really hard to go back in public, and start making speeches again, and start talking about things and just start being engaged again. But, you know, once once I started doing that I figured out that everybody's life didn't rise and fall on my election. And that there was such a thing as a greater good, I just need to keep working for it.
Eddie Rester : 43:50
What has, after that, and I know you felt that pull, and again, you've had this long career in politics across the United States and stretching even to our international partners in the Middle East. What has driven you there? What got you there at the beginning? And what even now as, after your time as Secretary of the Navy, has kind of kept you engaged? Because I know you're working with a lot of organizations for the common good right now. What kind of keeps you in the game? What's kept you in the game?
Ray Mabus : 44:25
Well, you know, I picked my parents very carefully. And my dad always talked about the importance of serving. He owned the hardware store in Ackerman, as you remember. And his brother who was his business partner had gone to West Point, after he went to Ole Miss. My dad, when I was growing up, he just kept talking about it. And my dad did not like politics much. But he was talking about things like the military, that you need to serve. You need to do something for your country or for your state. And I think that one of the things that drives me still was my fear of ever disappointing him. But I had that uncle that went to Westport. My aunt, my father's sister, spoke and taught four languages in various colleges and universities around the country. I was an only child of much older parents. And so, you know, in one sense, I was really spoiled and treated wonderfully, but on the other, I was raised with incredibly high expectations. I asked my mother one time, my dad was dead, and I asked my mother once, when I was governor, I said, "Did you think I might do something like this?" And she said, "No! We thought you were probably going to go be a university professor or something." But it was that: it was my family. And my father just was the kindest, gentlest person I think I've ever met. But he also had steel in his backbone, and would not compromise on things that he thought was important.
Eddie Rester : 46:53
I think we've got just a couple minutes left. What would be, for those who are listening, right now in this kind of odd, divided, political moment that we're in, what would be your encouragement to those of us in this moment?
Ray Mabus : 47:10
Well, in this moment, you get one shot at this life. And this moment, if you are not engaged, if you are not passionate about what we've been calling the common good here, then what's your life about? You don't have to be in politics, you don't have to even help or anything, but you've got to vote. And if you don't act in your moment, how are you gonna look back on that? And you really have no reason to complain afterwards, if things don't turn out the way you wanted them to. But I do think that the greatest satisfaction in life is doing things that make other people's lives brighter, and their future more hopeful. I mean, one of my favorite lines is "I've never seen a hearse with a U-Haul." You know, it doesn't matter how much money you have. It doesn't matter how much stuff you accumulate. At the end of the day, it's what have you done for your family? What have you done for other people? And particularly, what have you done for people that you don't even know? What have you contributed to make the world better because you've been here?
Chris McAlilly : 49:06
I think that's a great question for us to to end on, Secretary Mabus. Thank you for being with us today on the podcast. Grateful for your wisdom and sharing your stories and experience. It's been a good conversation. Thank you.
Ray Mabus : 49:22
Well, I appreciate being on. Thank y'all so much for doing it.
Eddie Rester : 49:26
Next time you get to Ackerman, let me know.
Ray Mabus : 49:29
Will do.
Chris McAlilly : 49:30
I think we need to call this one, "Two Ackerman Boys and Chris."
Ray Mabus : 49:38
We can make you an honorary Ackermanite.
Chris McAlilly : 49:41
Oh, man, this is big day for me.
Eddie Rester : 49:43
Big day for him. We'll have to come up with some regulations around that before you bestow that on him.
Ray Mabus : 49:48
I mean, he may have to do an initiation or something.
Chris McAlilly : 49:51
It's a high honor.
Eddie Rester : 49:52
Yeah.
Chris McAlilly : 49:52
I'm feeling real, real special.
Eddie Rester : 49:56
Thank you for your time, Secretary Mabus. We really appreciate it.
Ray Mabus : 50:00
Y'all take care.
Eddie Rester : 50:00
[OUTRO] Thank you for listening today. Go ahead and follow us on Facebook and Twitter. And go ahead and hit the subscribe button on whatever platform you use to listen to podcasts.
Chris McAlilly : 50:12
This wouldn't be possible without our partner General Board of Higher Education and Ministry. We want to thank also our producer, Cody Hickman. Follow us next week. We'll be back with another episode of The Weight. [END OUTRO]