0028 - The Weight - Julie Cantrell - From Breath to Breath
Shownotes
Stories are a way of inviting others in, opening the door to compassion, empathy, and understanding. Stories help us make sense of the world around us, and writing allows us the space to process overwhelming emotions. As humans, we are drawn to stories that show characters overcoming obstacles, growing wiser and stronger through the journey.
New York Times and USA Today Bestselling Author Julie Cantrell recognizes the power of narratives to guide us spiritually and ground us emotionally. She has used writing as an outlet to process moments of personal pain and loss, as well as joy, hope, and celebration. Crafted from her research into the Choctaw tribe, her first book “Into the Free”tells the story of a girl who struggles to find belonging in Depression-era Mississippi.
She joins Eddie and Chris to talk through how she discovered her gift for writing and developed a discipline for integrating writing into her life. They discuss the ways that stories help connect us, citing Jesus’s passion for sharing stories as a way of shaping people’s hearts. They talk about the power of stories throughout the Bible and how they create space for connection in our everyday lives.
The Weight Afterthoughts
We've realized that a lot of great conversation actually happens AFTER we say goodbye to our guests and turn the microphones off. So, we decided to turn the mics back on (and a camera) and create a new segment called, Afterthoughts.
This will live on our new YouTube channel and you can find our Afterthoughts on this episode NOW!
Click above to watch Afterthoughts
Resources
You can order Julie’s newest book “Crescendo: The True Story of a Musical Genius Who Forever Changed a Southern Town” and any of Julie’s other books at her independent bookstore: https://shop.aer.io/juliecantrell
Watch Julie’s Tedx Talk here: https://youtu.be/Oi4sqDJ8Wno
Follow Julie on the web: https://www.juliecantrell.com
Follow Julie on social media:
Full Transcript
Chris McAlilly : 0:00
I'm Chris McAlilly.
Eddie Rester : 0:01
I'm Eddie Rester.
Chris McAlilly : 0:02
Welcome to The Weight podcast.
Eddie Rester : 0:05
Today we're talking to Julie Cantrell. She's an author. She's written several books: "Into the Free," "When Mountains Move," "The Feathered Bone." Her most recent book was "Crescendo." She's had success as a writer. And she writes a lot about resilience and overcoming. Her characters in her books struggle and struggle mightily, finding their way through life.
Chris McAlilly : 0:30
We talk a lot in this episode about the power of narrative and story and how to tell stories well, how to hear the stories of others, what to do when the story of your life breaks down for various reasons. The way Julie both thinks about that as an author and then also how she has navigated some of those things in her own life.
Eddie Rester : 0:53
I think it's a powerful episode, particularly as she gets near the end and really shares some ways, some concrete things that she remembers doing in some of the darkest days that she had, that allowed her, you know, I think the phrase that you really loved is "to get from breath to breath."
Chris McAlilly : 1:11
I am always intrigued to hear people kind of unpack their spiritual journeys and kind of the ups and downs and it's not always... Yeah, I think about it when watching, when doing renovation projects at home and then watching HGTV, often the HGTV projects go a little bit smoother and
Eddie Rester : 1:32
Look better when they're done.
Chris McAlilly : 1:34
They do.
Eddie Rester : 1:34
Let's just be honest.
Chris McAlilly : 1:35
And I think that that's often what we do in sermons, you know, we kind of tidy things up and get to the punch line, because, you know, we don't have all the time in the world. And I think what I appreciate about this space is we can kind of unpack and think a little bit more deeply about the, I guess, the moments where things are not all that great, and I think you'll hear us kind of think through some of those things. And Julie, you know, she's just so gracious.
Eddie Rester : 2:05
So listen, and if there's somebody in your life that you know is struggling in their own story right now, this would be a great episode to share with them. So give it a listen.
Chris McAlilly : 2:15
And you should subscribe, too, after you do that. I hope you like it.
Eddie Rester : 2:18
For Chris. [INRO] Let's be honest, there's some topics that are too heavy for 20 minutes sermon. There are issues that need conversation, not just explanation.
Chris McAlilly : 2:28
We believe that the church is called to engage in a way that honors the weightiness and importance of these topics for how we live faithfully today. We'll cover everything from art to mental health, social injustice to the future of the church.
Eddie Rester : 2:40
If it's something that culture talks about, we need to be talking about it, too. [END INTRO] We're thankful to have New York Times bestselling author and friend and church member, technically, I think, still, Julie Cantrell, who's with us for The Weight today. Julie, welcome.
Julie Cantrell : 2:59
Thank you. Thank y'all so much for inviting me back home.
Chris McAlilly : 3:02
Hey, Julie. So glad to hear your voice again.
Julie Cantrell : 3:05
Hi Chris!
Eddie Rester : 3:05
Yeah.
Julie Cantrell : 3:06
Thank you.
Eddie Rester : 3:07
Yeah, you're living out in Houston, Texas, now is that right?
Julie Cantrell : 3:11
I am in Houston, Texas, now, the big city. Big jump from Oxford, but uh, hello to everybody back there. I miss it, and I'm sad I left.
Eddie Rester : 3:20
You have written several books. I read the last one, "Crescendo," which was a nonfiction book, but you've written--fiction has been your writing along the way. But I know that isn't where you really started writing. Kind of, you develop that gift later. So help us understand. How did you discover your gift for writing? How did all that start?
Julie Cantrell : 3:44
Oh, gosh, that's a good question. I think when I was really little, I was always an avid reader. My mom was a teacher, an elementary school teacher, and she always read to us, encouraged us to write. And books were just a part of my life. And I was journaling from the time I was a little girl. I think... I'm grateful. I really am grateful that even when I was young, I had kind of learned to use that as a tool to process the world around me, but also to kind of take all the pain and fear and negativity that spins around us and channel it into something positive on the page. It helped me grow through, you know, all the challenges that we face in life by using writing as a tool to help me navigate it all. And I still do that today. And I'm just really grateful I have that. I think we all have it, whether it's writing or art or music or woodworking or gardening or pottery or some kind of creative gift that we've been given. That's what we're supposed to use it for: to kind of guide us spiritually and keep us grounded emotionally, giving us healthy outlets for that pain.
Chris McAlilly : 4:49
How do you think about the connection between, because I think that is right. I think creativity is something that... I see it in my children. I just see my children experimenting with the world around them and making marks on pages. I guess, at what point did you realize that it could be a medium, that writing could be one of the ways that you could process the pain or the joy or, kind of the other, I guess, the range of emotions that we go through as human beings?
Julie Cantrell : 5:24
Yeah, the whole range of emotions. You're right about that. The joy, too, you know. I don't know, Chris. I think for a long time I put my writing away. I had had somebody, you know, kind of shut down that piece of me when I was younger for a little while, and I put it away. And what brought me back to writing, honestly, was when I became pregnant with my first child, my daughter Emily. And I just started journaling to her again, even though I hadn't written in years, writing, honestly, love letters to my unborn child. Just wanting her to know she was being brought into this world from love. And that was certainly not writing from pain. It was writing from love and gratitude and celebration and mothering. And so that's what started me writing again. And then I just kept going from there, writing for my children, and it just grew from there.
Eddie Rester : 6:12
What was the first thing that you got published?
Julie Cantrell : 6:18
Um, it was actually children's books. Again, it was with my children. Everything about my writing journey really has to do with my being a mom, because technically I'm a speech language pathologist. I never even took a writing class. So I always laugh and say I came into the writing world through the back door with bare feet like a true Southern girl. And I still do speech therapy sometimes until a couple years ago, you know, it's a great field. But I really started writing so that I could justify staying home with my children: work from home with them and earn enough to be at home with them and be a full time mom. And I never really planned on publishing books. But when we moved--we had moved around a lot when my children were young--and when we moved from Colorado to Mississippi, Emily was just starting first grade. And she had a hard time adjusting to that relocation, because we were very settled in Colorado. She was in kindergarten there, had her friends, you know. It's hard. She was starting to have nightmares. And again, I always turn to story for everything. And we had Emily and Adam, and we would tell stories a lot. And she loved to read and write. She loved animals. So she just sat in my lap one day at the computer, and we wrote a very simple story together about her making it through the night and feeling safe and secure, even when she was scared. And we printed it out on the computer, with little animal pictures to show animals feeling different emotions, because I wanted her to know that we all feel scared sometimes. We all feel alone sometimes. We all feel small in this great big world. And we printed it out and stapled it together and called it the Emily Book, and that was it. That's what it was for. But as her friend started spending the night, we would read it to them, too, like we did every night before bed. And so their parents started asking me for copies, and then just honestly the the supportive, kind mamas around Oxford started asking me about it and saying it was helping their kids. So I tried on a whim to publish it. And Zondervan bought it and it turned into two little children's picture books and they're called "God Is With Me Through the Day," and the other one is called "God Is With Me Through the Night." And that was that. It was just a sweet, fun, happy project, and I never imagined in a million years I'd publish anything else much less, you know, become a full-time author. It was just kind of a mama thing to do.
Chris McAlilly : 8:34
Having, I guess, part of the... I think that helping your children navigate the world is.... I'm at that phase of life where we have a nine-year-old, a six-year-old and a three-year-old. And stories are just one of the ways in which we process the world, in which we... I went back and I got a copy of the Grimms' Fairy Tales. That's... No, man. Those stories are dark.
Eddie Rester : 9:01
You probably don't want to read those to the kids before dark.
Chris McAlilly : 9:03
I know, right?
Eddie Rester : 9:03
Before bed.
Chris McAlilly : 9:03
What in the world where they thinking? I mean, Germany and you know, whatever... It's not Walt Disney, I'll tell you that. What is it about stories for children that help them navigate their little worlds? And then what's different about writing books for adults, I guess, when you kind of shift your audience a little bit?
Julie Cantrell : 9:30
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. I think we're all wired for story. And, you know, it's just the way we do process life. We process it through language. And we organize language through story by organizing it along a narrative arc or narrative structure. We kind of operate in beginning-middle-end. That's how we live our lives. That's how the circle of life is formed. And I think it just makes sense of things that otherwise are overwhelming or don't always make sense. It also helps us organize and file our thoughts in our brain a little bit better, so that we can retrieve those thoughts again, when it's time for us to use that knowledge in ways that apply in our lives. But, I mean, honestly, I believe the greatest storyteller was Jesus. He turned to story to share the message that he had come to deliver. He didn't always, you know, preach by telling us rules and regulations and
Eddie Rester : 10:23
Right. Yeah.
Julie Cantrell : 10:24
rituals and things we had to do. He just said, "Come and sit by me and let me tell you a story." Because he knew that was the way to shape people's hearts and to reach people's souls. I think, yes, the stories change in length or style or tone or message or darkness, you know, as they become more for adults, but the structure is the same. It's still the same. It's story.
Eddie Rester : 10:45
When I think about the power of story, I think about the best stories kind of invite you in. There's a character or a moment or something that you say, "I can see myself in that" or there's a feeling that gets created by great story. I was joking earlier. I'm reading Larry McMurtry's "Lonesome Dove" right now. And you know, I've never read a Western before, but there's something built into the characters and into the kind of the rhythm of what they're trying to accomplish that really kind of holds me. And I think that's the power of a great story, it just kind of allows you into a different world sometimes. And sometimes we need a different way. You talk about Jesus telling stories, and I think his ability to draw people into the Kingdom world as opposed to their world was the gift, the great gift, of his story.
Julie Cantrell : 11:46
Yeah, I think it reminds us that there's more to life than us, you know. That this journey is about a lot more than us. There's a much bigger story being told. We're not the main character in the world's story at all. We're just a little piece of it. And you know, you've tapped into a key word there when you said what draws you into a good story, you said, "emotion," just as Chris had said early "all of the different emotions." I think emotion is key to why we write but also why we read. It helps us kind of climb into someone else's skin as has been said, who... Help me. I'm blanking on the name of who wrote "To Kill a Mockingbird." What is wrong with me?
Eddie Rester : 12:29
Harper
Julie Cantrell : 12:30
Harper Lee!
Eddie Rester : 12:30
Harper Lee.
Julie Cantrell : 12:31
Yeah. The best way we can understand somebody is to climb into their skin and walk around in it. That's what Atticus Finch said in the book "To Kill a Mockingbird." And I agree with that. I think that's what story allows us to do. It allows us to kind of escape our own being, climb into this other character's life, and walk in their shoes and experience their pain and their suffering and their struggle and their victory. And so it builds more compassion and empathy and understanding for us to relate to other people better even if we haven't lived their exact journey. By reading about it, we kind of do. And we kind of gain that understanding and that experience even though we haven't lived it.
Chris McAlilly : 13:11
I was an English major in college and I got there through psychology. I thought I wanted to be a psychologist. Psychology at my college was all about research.
Eddie Rester : 13:21
Yeah, I could tell you. I did major in psychology. I can tell you how rats were going to move around. That's what I was
Chris McAlilly : 13:28
Yeah, that was not interesting to me at all. My my dad had introduced me to folks like Joseph Campbell and Karl Jung. And so I thought that that's what psychology was, and it's definitely not
Eddie Rester : 13:40
It's definitely not that, yeah.
Chris McAlilly : 13:41
You know, where I found it. I took this Native American literature and mythology course.
Julie Cantrell : 13:51
Awesome.
Chris McAlilly : 13:51
And it was that course, really, it opened my world up. And it just reminded me that what I really wanted to do was be a... you know, I wanted to read and tell stories. That's all I really wanted to do. I didn't have a clear plan of how I was going to make a living out of that.
Eddie Rester : 14:09
So now you're a preacher.
Chris McAlilly : 14:10
I don't know, I'm a preacher, so...
Eddie Rester : 14:11
You're read and tell stories.
Chris McAlilly : 14:13
It is what it is. But I think, you know, one of the things about that is I began to realize that every culture, every people, you know, they tell stories and some of the details or the symbolism is different. But I think that there is a kind of commonality across world literature and myth and story and language. I think there's areal commonality. And I think it's a way of... you can kind of empathize with different cultures and people from different places through that medium. Do you ever do poetry? Do you ever do other, kind of, other forms, not just fiction, or even nonfiction? I guess, has it always been long form for you when you're writing?
Julie Cantrell : 15:02
No, actually, the very first thing I ever published was a poem. It was on a dare from a friend. I, as I said, we moved around a lot, and one of the things I always did when we moved to a new town to try to get my children anchored again and start our new lives there was two things: go to a library and then go find a church. And the church groups I usually found where the mothering groups like MOPS that were anchored in the churches. And so I was attending this MOPS group for mothers of preschoolers, and they had a writing contest and a friend dared me to enter. And I just, on a whim, wrote a poem, submitted it, and by luck won. And when I won that, MOPS contacted me and hired me to start writing for Mom Sense Magazine. And then it just grew from there. So I developed this freelance writing business, you know, more than 20 years ago, which enabled me to stay home as a mom and just write about all the things I was living in daily life. I ended up writing all the family content for all the Publix grocery stores, and lots of stuff from Meredith Marketing. So it went from poetry to copy. And I still have corporate clients today, which I write just everything for. But then I published those children's books. And then I've contributed some more than 20 books like devotionals, anthologies, essays, all kinds of stuff. And then I did the historical novels, and then contemporary novels. And then as Eddie said, I shifted to creative nonfiction. And I do ghost writing as well, which has included straight-up nonfiction as well. So a little bit of everything. I don't know, Chris, I think I'm like you, I just wanted to find a way to write and I'll do whatever it takes to make a living doing that, you know. I do it all.
Eddie Rester : 16:40
As you find your writing or even the stories that you're drawn to, are there particular themes that you see kind of playing out over and over again for you?
Julie Cantrell : 16:50
For me, personally, I'm drawn to stories that talk of resilience and hope and healing, especially as it applies to women. But of course, in the last book I just wrote it was a trauma story about a man who had been traumatized and overcoming that with, you know, kind of a resilient spirit in his faith. But yeah, I think all of my stories. But honestly all stories that really connect with you and connect on that emotional level with you are about someone overcoming something and growing stronger and wiser by the end of the story. And so I think that's all about hope and healing and redemption, whether it's faith-based or not. My world lens just happens to be anchored in my faith.
Eddie Rester : 17:35
Your first book that really, I mean, the one that hit the New York Times bestseller list was "Into the Free." Tell us a little bit about kind of that story and how those themes played out in that story.
Julie Cantrell : 17:50
Yeah, that story was, again, written on a whim. I was turning, you know, getting a little bit older in my 30s at the time, I thought was getting older. Not now. I just on a bucket list put that I would like to try to write a book. I think as an avid reader, and as you two probably both feel, too, I mean, don't you ever just close the book and think, "I'd really like to try to write a book"?
Eddie Rester : 18:11
Always.
Julie Cantrell : 18:12
I think a lot of readers feel that way. And that's really how I came to it. I was not a writer. I didn't think I had any right in the world to try writing a book. But it was just a personal, private goal for me. And I knew I had no time in the world to write a novel. Didn't know how to write a novel. But I gave myself from 3:00 to 5:00 in the morning, for three months. I basically, before anybody woke up and needed me, before life got started every day. And I didn't tell anybody I was writing it. Nobody knew. And I just wanted to see if I could do it. And at the end, I had this beautiful story that I really do feel like was kind of just channeled through me. I'm not saying it was a good story. I mean, it was beautiful to me. This beautiful, spiritual, sacred experience that I was able to experience. And it was a story story about a girl coming of age in Depression-era Mississippi and overcoming a whole lot of hard stuff in her young life, and finding her own way into the free--breaking free of dysfunctional family cycles and abusive situations that she was put in, hard communities that didn't always accept her because she was part Choctaw and poor, and finding her own deeper faith than the superficial, judgmental, critical Christian-ese that was kind of keeping her down, and just making her way. And it was just... you know, I loved it. I loved every bit of that experience and had no desire whatsoever to try to publish it. But she wouldn't leave me alone. She kept nudging me forward. And you know, Chris, you mentioned the Native Americans. I ended up spending a good bit of time with the Choctaw in Mississippi before that book came out, researching the details and trying to get it right. And one of the elders there told me, you know, "You never know. Maybe it's an ancestor's story that just needed to come to light. And it's not your story to keep." And I just thought that was a beautiful way of thinking of it. It's really... As all these stories go to shelves, I just always think of it as "it's not my story to keep. Somebody out there, even if it's just one person, needs to read it." And that's been proven time and time again. So I just feel like a little transport vehicle. I'm kind of putting these words out for somebody there who's waiting to receive them.
Chris McAlilly : 20:25
Can you talk a little bit about, we've kind of just touched on it here and there about kind of a spiritual or our faith background to some of the ways you think about stories. And then I also think just in framing that setting, what do you think the church gets right or wrong? As it relates to stories, as it relates to the you know... I think that sometimes the church is a place where you can tell some stories and not others. How do you see the church's role in hearing stories or telling stories?
Julie Cantrell : 21:02
Gosh, what a good question. That's a deep one. Um, I can't even imagine being in the role you are both in, and trying to communicate in a way that is received by everybody, in a way that's received well. I think especially now more than ever, we are easily offended and easily harmed by misunderstanding one another and misinterpreting people's intentions. And I can't imagine trying to communicate from the pulpit and having every word scrutinized and analyzed and just giving it all your heart and still not being understood. And I think if there's a challenge the church faces for y'all, that's probably it, but I could be wrong. But time and time again, we see that all the way back from Bible times to, right? I mean, we see these writers in the Bible trying to communicate the story of love and grace and redemption and again and again and again, they are persecuted and tortured and betrayed and, you know, turned on by their communities and alienated. And it just happens again and again and again when people try to voice truth and when love is brought to the light, I mean, there's just constantly this darkness trying to suffocate it. So the stories have always been there. And the church's role in my mind has always been to use story to tell the truth. But there will always be people trying to silence that truth and conquer that kind of love. I don't know why. I don't know why. But I think it's always been there.
Eddie Rester : 22:45
Yeah, I think one of the things for humanity is that--and this is true across the board--is that there's something within us that distorts the best stories. Whether that's sometimes we go after our own story in a way, we try to undo our own story, or maybe undo others, or tell God's story in a way that is not healthy or whole. I think that's part of the human condition for us is that we, although we desire a great story, sometimes we don't allow that story to be told. I think, I'm not sure I made any sense there, but...
Julie Cantrell : 23:26
No, I hear you. I think, and I think maybe what you're trying to say, too, is we of course can interpret things different ways based on our own experiences and the lens that we carry. And we also can warp things and tell stories that, you know, aren't always truth-based stories. And whether that's intentional or just psychological preservation, you know, probably depends on the person or the circumstance. But I think you're right there. For sure.
Eddie Rester : 23:53
You know, one of the themes you talk about in your writing and, again, the latest book, "Crescendo," it's a big theme, which is resilience and overcoming. I know that in your own life you have had situations and moments where you found yourself at the just the end of the road, kind of. How in your own life have you found resilience and hope and kind of reclaimed your story over time?
Julie Cantrell : 24:24
Yeah. Um, you know, I think, Eddie, like everybody--and I don't know anybody who's had an easy life. I mean, of course, we know some people suffer greater challenges than other people, and not always for reasons that make any sense at all.
Eddie Rester : 24:43
You know, one of the things that... I'm sorry, you faded out and I jumped in, I'm sorry.
Julie Cantrell : 24:51
Oh, no, go ahead. I'm listening.
Eddie Rester : 24:52
No, I was just saying that sometimes people will come and sit down with me as a pastor and say, "I'm sure you've never heard anything this bad before," and I always have to say, "Your story is your story."
Julie Cantrell : 25:06
Yeah.
Eddie Rester : 25:07
Usually I have heard something that's beyond that. But anyway, I'm sorry, I interrupted you.
Julie Cantrell : 25:14
No, I think that what you said is exactly what I was trying to say. That, like, everybody and the more... Being in this role as a writer has, because of the kind of things I write about, have opened up channels of communication for me that I didn't expect. So a lot of people come to me with their stories and want me to hear their stories because they relate to the characters that I'm writing about or the journey that those characters took. And in hearing all of these stories, as you and Chris probably know firsthand, if it's anything if it's taught me anything, it's taught me that yes, everybody suffers and everybody's struggling, whether we see that or not on the surface. Resilience to me, you know... Okay, and cut me off here if I go too long, but I'll just kind of tell a story. So I think we all experienced those painful losses, things that we never expected to be served in our lives. And for me, it goes back to my childhood. And like many people, you know, I experienced the divorce of my parents when I was very young. And then I lost my childhood best friend to cancer when we were teens. And then my brother committed suicide when he was a senior in high school. And then my grandmother was killed in a car wreck driving home from my college graduation. And then I had many other little traumas and tragedies along the way that have kind of left their before-and-after marks in my heart, I like to say. So I've known pain and suffering all my life, like most people. And each one of those things brought me to different levels of suffering and grief and despair. But at every turn, I was very grateful because I had grown up in a home where faith was a part of my life. And I was able to anchor myself and ground myself into something bigger than me, in a story that would continue beyond my own suffering and pain. And I think that got me through every turn. But I will tell you nothing broke me, and I don't believe anything can shred a soul quite like divorce. So when I went through a divorce, that was just what brought me to my bottom. I mean, it was just the last thing I ever wanted in the world for my children. And I just did not know how to protect all the people I loved from being destroyed. And sometimes we can't. And that is what can destroy somebody. Knowing that all we can do is surrender everything to God and just keep praying, keep breathing, one breath at a time.
Chris McAlilly : 27:36
You know, I think so much of the power of stories as a vehicle for processing pain comes in the aftermath. And when you're living through those moments, or you know, when you're trying to walk through those moments with someone that you care about, but you have very little control of the circumstances, it can be hard because there is the absence of what a story gives you, which is some kind of ending. Even if it's unsatisfying, you kind of have some resolution to it. You know, I think that's one of the things that's hard about being a pastor a lot of times is that you're watching a story unfold in real time. And it's hard to know kind of how it's going to end. And I think there's a kind of open-endedness. And I think that divorce or really, when relationships break down, there's an expected trajectory or arc that we think that we're living. And then when it appears that that's not going to be the story, that's hard. And it's hard to recalibrate or reorient to tell a new story.
Julie Cantrell : 28:51
Exactly. And I think what you just said was, you know, when the story doesn't go the way we expect the story to go, you know, how do we handle that? And then I think a lot of people are facing that right now with COVID. Like, this is not what people saw for their 2020 year, you know? Whether, and I know a lot of people who this is kind of the first time in their lives that things have been shaken. So all of a sudden, they don't feel secure and safe in their role right now. They don't feel financially secure, or maybe their health has been impacted. Or maybe in other ways: they've lost their jobs or their home or their friends or their family. You know, whatever shakes us, you can lose your reputation, even your truth, your faith, your identity. It's kind of, in a metaphorically way, our own personal crucifixion, when we get kind of broken to that level. And yet, even though we don't know the end of the story, as you say, Chris, if we rely on our faith, we kind of do. Because, as we're told--I think it's in Peter and I'm not going to preach to preachers--you know, we're told that Jesus died to show us the way and to model the steps that we're supposed to model. And again and again and again, we see in the Bible, these stories of redemption and resurrection and renewal. Tremendous suffering all the way back from Adam and Eve when they first stopped trusting God. And then of course, their son killed their other son, you know, it goes on from there. But through it all, through every one of those stories of suffering, we see stories of faith and hope and renewal and love. And I may not know the end of my story, or even the end of my children's story, and I may not have any control whatsoever of how this story is going, but my faith reminds me that there is a bigger story at play. And we are one little piece, one little generation of it, that's been going on since the beginning of time and will go on long beyond us. And that in the end, love wins. And that's all I can do is just keep believing that in the in love wins and just keep trying to... I don't know. I make a million mistakes. But if I can make every choice every day in love and keep trying to keep my heart open and my spirit strong and my mind discerning enough to keep choosing love in spite of it all, then that's all I can do, one word at a time, one breath at a time, one moment at a time in this story.
Eddie Rester : 31:18
One of my favorite quotes is from a guy named Frederick Buechner. He gets quoted every Easter Sunday: "Resurrection means the worst thing is never the last thing."
Julie Cantrell : 31:30
Yes, thank you. That's one of my favorite quotes, too. I was hoping you would say that one.
Eddie Rester : 31:34
You know, I think that's hard sometimes to hold on to, when you are in the darkest dark of night. When it feels like your story hasn't just ended, it hit the wall at 90 and shattered into a thousand pieces. It's hard sometimes to hold on to that. How have you done that? Or how have you seen others kind of hold on to the hope of kind of a continuing story in those moments? If somebody was in that today, and you were talking to them, what would you say?
Julie Cantrell : 32:11
Well, you know, it's gonna sound silly, but I'll tell you my trick, what got me through the worst things. Because, you know, what it is, Eddie, too, it's not just an acute moment of pain. Like, almost any of us can handle one acute moment of pain. But when that pain is longitudinal, and the trauma is so deep and you don't see an end to it, it is really easy to start to lose hope or to feel like you cannot hold one more ounce of pain for one more minute in this world. Like, it's just become too heavy. That cross is too big to bear. And especially when we're the kind of people who are trying to hold that cross for others, you know, it is a lot to suffer. But there were definitely moments--and I never thought I'd be the kind of person to get there--but there were moments when I was just so broken and filled of fear and unsafety and just terror and pain. I think I did three things, when I think back on it. I'm probably still doing some of these things today, because it's not really over for me yet. The first thing I did, and I like to kind of compare it to how Jesus, you know, after he was crucified, he didn't just come right back the next day. He first went into the tomb for a few days. And I think it's okay to give ourselves that quiet, still time to rest and heal, and to just give ourselves space, and to kind of think through what we're supposed to learn in that darkness. And then, I kind of fought back despair with prayer. I would not allow myself to spiral into negative thoughts or hate or anger. Every time I started to feel those negative emotions... I mean, I felt the pain. I worked through the pain. I wasn't gonna allow myself to numb it in unhealthy ways or transfer it to other people. I had to walk through the pain, but I didn't allow myself to become consumed by it. So I prayed. And this is the part that I know is going to sound really silly. And maybe, I don't know... It worked for me. There are points when it can become so overwhelming that you just can't breathe. You cannot take another breath. You just want it to end. And the only way I could get from breath to breath was to kind of give myself this little mantra. And so when I would inhale, every time I would inhale, I would think, "Dear heavenly Father," and every time I would exhale, I would say "I am loved by you." "Dear heavenly Father, I am loved by you." Because there are moments when you feel so unloved and unwanted in this world that you just don't think there's room for you here anymore. And I just had to keep reminding myself that if I am still here, there must be a reason. I must still have work to do. And for me that work is to love. And so I just kept myself anchored in that very, very simple prayer, breath by breath.
Chris McAlilly : 35:04
Sometimes people will ask. I think prayer is hard in those moments when you feel like you've lost kind of the thread or you don't know what... If you don't know what the story is, it's hard to even know how to pray or to whom to pray, you know, to whom to orient your prayer. And I think that... I heard a spiritual director, an English spiritual director say one time that when you're struggling to pray, pray as you can and not as you can't. And
Julie Cantrell : 35:39
Yeah.
Chris McAlilly : 35:40
the less you do it, the worse it goes. And so, you know, simple prayers, I think there's something very beautiful about that. And also I think attending to the, just attending to the simple inhale and exhale breath. Say again what you said. It was so beautiful, the simple prayer.
Julie Cantrell : 36:04
Well, and you can put whatever word in there that works for you. Because, you know, I know there have been a lot of people, especially a lot of people, men and women who have been wounded in different ways, by religion and by the organized church. And so they weren't comfortable even saying, speaking to somebody they think of as a heavenly Father for different reasons. So I mean, fill in the blanks there. But for me, it's "Dear heavenly Father, I am loved by you." And I think, Chris, like you said, there are so many moments when we are on our knees and screaming to the heavens, like how can there be a God? And if there is why aren't you listening to me? Why aren't you answering my prayers? Why aren't you helping these innocent people who are being devoured? You know, how can there be a God? But again, we see that happen again and again and again throughout time in the Bible. And yeah, I just anchored myself in that one simple thought: that I am loved. I am loved. And if I'm loved, I'm here to love, period. And that's all I can do.
Eddie Rester : 37:02
One of the things we try to teach our confirmation clas--and for those not familiar with confirmation, it's a seventh grade group for us that learns about faith that is there to really, at the end, profess their own faith--but one of the things that we try real hard above everything else, because they're going to lose all the facts and the information we give them, is to remember that they're a child of God claimed by grace. That that great love claims them above all things. And I, you know, for me in the darkest moments of life, if I can, if I can hold that sometimes it's, it's enough for me.
Chris McAlilly : 37:40
I think the thing about that, to me, is that it anchors your identity, who you are--not in your success or failure, not in what you've done or what has been done to you. But that there is something in the universe, at the core, the source of all things that loves all, but specifically me. And there's a kind of anchor for your identity in that that allows you to maybe... I don't know. If that if that is there, and it's there for me, perhaps... I think I love the way that you're describing it, Julie, that if that is there for me, then it offers me an orientation towards other people as well.
Julie Cantrell : 38:25
Exactly.
Chris McAlilly : 38:26
If I have been... If I am loved, I am to love.
Julie Cantrell : 38:30
Exactly. And as you said, it's the root of everything. And yes, there is another choice. We could go the other way. We could allow all that pain and hurt to harden us. We could allow ourselves to hate. And we could allow ourselves to be consumed by anger and revenge and bitterness. But. We can also choose love. And in the way to do that is to anchor ourselves in that great root, that great source, that great creation that brought us all here in the first place. And for me, I call that root God, and I anchor myself there through prayer and through writing and journaling and meditation and nature. And you know, serving others, extending my everything I have to offer to elevate and encourage others, as I know you both do, too, in your lives. And that's really how I do it.
Eddie Rester : 39:22
One of the things you said earlier is that, as you've told your stories, that people have reached out to you to tell you their stories. And I think that's one of the gifts of... This isn't just writing stories, but it's the gift of if we can be honest with who we are and where we've been and the pain, even, that we've struggled with sometimes, it opens the door for others maybe to realize that even their story of pain and struggle and hardship is still a worthy story. And it's okay to have had those things happen and that there's a way through them, even.
Julie Cantrell : 40:04
Absolutely. Mm hmm.
Eddie Rester : 40:06
And I think we've become so... trying to figure out how to.... propositional in our living that, you know, we try to prove a point with our words or we try to show certain things about ourselves, that we miss the power that other people, they need to hear sometimes just the fullness of who we are and who we aren't sometimes.
Julie Cantrell : 40:31
Mm hmm. Yeah, you know, you both just kind of tapped on something that... I don't know how to... I think one, you know, in Christian circles, we we call it being lost, you know, in certain Christian circles. And I think the way I interpret that is we kind of lose hold of truth. We kind of get lost in the spin. And we start to believe things that aren't true, not only about other people or about the world, but about ourselves. And if we start to believe the lies that we aren't worth the breath we breathe, if we start to believe the lies that we have nothing to offer in this world, or that our story is done, and that there's no coming back from this or that we, you know... We can believe a lot of lies about ourselves. But it takes a deep faith and a lot of trust and strength, but we can choose instead to cling to the truth that we are loved and we do matter and so does every other person in this world.
Chris McAlilly : 41:38
I have to ask about that 3:00 to 5:00. I've been thinking about that since you mentioned it earlier. Do you still write from 3:00 to 5:00? Is that still your writing habit? That blew me away when you said that. Because I think for people out there... I guess the reason I'm coming back to that at this point in the conversation is that to do that work, I mean, I think because I think it's one thing to say it. It's another thing to put it into practice, you know, to really engage prayer as a practice or to really engage writing in a way that allows you to put something down as a practice. And I just kind of wonder, how have you developed those habits that have allowed you to kind of sustain that trajectory in telling your own story and telling other stories?
Julie Cantrell : 42:32
Yeah. You know, honestly, that was the first time I'd ever, when I wrote that first novel, and I did that so early in the morning. I had never... I was the kind of mom, like a lot of moms, like, we're not even on the list. You know, we just didn't. I didn't do a thing for myself. Nothing. I never took a minute that wasn't serving other people in some way. And so the idea of carving time to do something that was just for me, and my pleasure was just absurd and selfish and wasn't gonna happen. And the only way I could give that to myself was to do it in a way that didn't take from anybody else. And so that's why I chose to do it from 3:00 to 5:00. I just, it wasn't my nature to do something for me, ever. Now I have more time to write. I work full time now. I have sustained this career now to the point that I work full time doing writing and editing and ghost writing and book coaching and, you know, just juggling a lot of balls, so I don't have to work from 3:00 to 5:00 anymore. So I don't always do that. But sometimes if I'm awake and I can't sleep, I'll go ahead and get up and work in those hours. But yeah, I do think it takes a daily practice toward anything we want to improve at or grow or be a regular part of our lives. You know, whether it's exercise or family, relationships, I mean, it takes daily attention and daily effort, intention. So yeah, I think it's just a matter of priorities and carving that space for what's important to us.
Eddie Rester : 43:57
Julie, thank you for sharing your habit of writing with the world. And just for spending some time with us today on the podcast. It's been really good.
Chris McAlilly : 44:09
Thank you so much for sharing your story with us.
Julie Cantrell : 44:13
Thank you both. Y'all bring so much joy to me and to everybody who knows y'all. And I just appreciate you both so much. Everything you're doing in Oxford and far beyond. And I thank you for being a part of my journey and crossing my path. Thank you.
Eddie Rester : 44:25
Well, come see us sometime. We'll talk to you soon.
Julie Cantrell : 44:28
Hope so. Thank y'all. Have a great day.
Eddie Rester : 44:30
[OUTRO] Thank you for listening today. Go ahead and follow us on Facebook and Twitter. And go ahead and hit the subscribe button on whatever platform you use to listen to podcasts.
Chris McAlilly : 44:40
This wouldn't be possible without our partner, General Board of Higher Education in Ministry. We want to thank also our producer Cody Hickman. Follow us next week. We'll be back with another episode of The Weight. [END OUTRO]