0018 - The Weight - Leonard Sweet - “Rings Of Fire”

Show Notes:

The place of Christianity in the greater culture is constantly changing. With constant changes comes increased challenges for Christians in terms of maintaining integrity in terms of witness and practice. What are the new ways that temptation permeates our daily lives? How do we stand firm in timeless convictions in ever changing times? How do we set our eyes on Jesus Christ despite the circumstances of the world around us?

In today’s episode of The Weight, we engage these questions with Leonard Sweet, a scholar of United States culture, semiotician, historian, and United Methodist minister. Currently serving as the E. Stanley Jones Professor Emeritus at Drew Theological School, Sweet has built a reputation as one of the most influential voices in Christianity who seeks to communicate the Gospel by bridging together the worlds of faith, academia, and culture. Sweet is passionate about the role of the Church in the world and what a faithful future can look like for the people of Jesus Christ, especially in an increasingly divisive culture. 

In this episode, Sweet speaks bluntly about the aspects of today’s world that concern him, but also offers a vision of Christianity as a faith that isn’t separated from the culture of the world, but indigenous in it. He challenges listeners to recognize the ways that the Spirit of God can work through the culture of the world to make miracles happen and “bring the best out of the worst.”

The Weight - Afterthoughts:

We've realized that a lot of great conversation actually happens AFTER we say goodbye to our guests and turn the microphones off. So, we decided to turn the mics back on (and a camera) and create a new segment called, Afterthoughts.

This will live on our new YouTube channel and you can find our Afterthoughts on this episode NOW!

Resources:

Check out Len Sweet’s book “Ring of Fire: Walking in Faith Through a Volcanic Future”

https://www.amazon.com/Rings-Fire-Walking-through-Volcanic/dp/1631463942

Listen to Len Sweet’s podcast “Napkin Scribbles”

https://leonardsweet.com/podcasts/

Follow Len Sweet on the web: https://leonardsweet.com/

Follow Len Sweet on Twitter: https://twitter.com/lensweet

Follow Len Sweet on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/LensSweetSpots

Full Transcript:

Chris McAlilly : 0:00

So when I met you, Eddie, you were talking about Len Sweet. Tell me what's going on with this guy? You like him a lot.

Eddie Rester : 0:07

When we were actually talking about you coming on staff at Oxford University United Methodist Church in Oxford, Mississippi, I was actually on my way to Len Sweet's home on Orcas Island. One of the things that has drawn me to Len's books and writings and conversations is that he is passionate about the role of the church, not just today, but as it leans into the future.

Chris McAlilly : 0:31

He calls himself a futurist. I'm not sure about that. What is a futurist?

Eddie Rester : 0:35

You know, it's one of those terms that I think you kind of label yourself. But you spend a lot of time as a futurist thinking not just about what was or what is, but what might be able to be. And he's written several books about that. His latest is "Rings of Fire," and we're going to talk with him today on The Weight, about that book and what he sees coming out of this divisive moment and the role of the church going forward.

Chris McAlilly : 1:00

He's always thinking about the church as it relates to culture. And he's a little bit more pessimistic than I've heard him in the past in this conversation. 

Eddie Rester : 1:06

I think he's beginning to see that things that he saw...

Chris McAlilly : 1:11

It's weird out there. 

Eddie Rester : 1:11

It's weird out there. And he talked about that 20 years ago, but I don't think he thought it would get this weird.

Chris McAlilly : 1:18

Yeah, I mean, I think if you're worried that the culture is de-forming the church, it's not just the church that's forming and shaping the culture, you're going to be interested in this conversation.

Eddie Rester : 1:28

He's always good for something that's fascinating, interesting, always brings kind of a perspective that I think we all need to wrestle with.

Chris McAlilly : 1:37

So listen to the end, and then tell us what you think.

Eddie Rester : 1:42

[INTRO] Let's be honest, there's some topics that are too heavy for 20 minutes sermon, there are issues that need conversation, not just explanation.

Chris McAlilly : 1:50

We believe that the church is called to engage in a way that honors the weightiness and importance of these topics for how we live faithfully today will cover everything from art to mental health, social media. justice to the future of the church.

Eddie Rester : 2:01

If it's something that culture talks about, we need to be talking about it, too. [END INTRO] Our guest today on The Weight is Len Sweet. Len's the E. Stanley Jones Professor at Drew Theological School, the Distinguishing Visiting Professor at Tabor College at George Fox University. And he's the author of more than 50 books. And for me, he's been a mentor and a friend for the past decade. Len, we appreciate you taking the time to be with us today.

Len Sweet : 2:30

Great to be with you, Eddie. 

Chris McAlilly : 2:32

I hear from Audra, Len, that you like her and the kids more than you like Eddie.

Len Sweet : 2:39

[LAUGHTER] Yeah, what can I say? Yeah, it's really why I did this was for Audra, but that's another...

Chris McAlilly : 2:45

Yeah, you're in good company.

Len Sweet : 2:47

Okay. I'm not the only one?

Eddie Rester : 2:50

Apparently, you're not.

Len Sweet : 2:51

I thought I was chair of that fan club. Oh, well.

Eddie Rester : 2:55

Lots of people out there. 

Chris McAlilly : 2:56

A lot of folks in that fan club down in Oxford.

Len Sweet : 2:59

Okay, good.

Eddie Rester : 3:00

Before we dive in, we want to talk about several things today. One is, you've got a great podcast, Napkin Scribbles. You've recently released a new book, "Rings of Fire." We're going to dive into that in just a second. But before we do that, one thing that we wanted to just briefly hear from you about, you write a lot about, in fact you've written a book about your relationship and the impact of your mom. In all of your books, you mentioned your kids, somewhere along the way. Elizabeth has been a big part of helping you write along the way. So what is it, what's the impact your family has on what you do, how you see your work, right now?

Len Sweet : 3:42

Well, it's a really good question. Early on in my ministry, I kind of tried to keep my family out of it and kind of put up a barrier there. And then I realized this is not working. So I just brought them in and said, "I need you." And I think the thing that enabled all this to happen, Eddie, was the table. We insisted on gathering to eat at the table. And it wasn't just about the meal. There's a Spanish word called "sobremesa," "over the table." And it's fairly common in some more Asian cultures and European cultures, where the one thing you could do to dishonor your host was to, when you're done eating, get up from the table, because the real meal is the conversation that takes place, "sobre," after or over, "mesa," the table. And so table time was storytime. It was relationship time. And that's where I would ask them questions, you know, "What are you listening to? What is the song that you kids are talking about? And your friends are all wanting to talk about?" And so they were educating me, and at the same time, we were passing on the stories and the traditions to them. So, the centering, kind of centrifugal, centripetal harmony came at the point of that table. And if you look at the history of the Jewish-Christian tradition, in Judaism, what replaces the temple is the table. And Jesus is preparing--I think he's worrying about the destruction of the temple, but he's preparing his disciples for this future when he himself basically grounds his ministry in a table ministry. Jesus is just eating all the time. He's a foodie, I mean, he loves to eat. John came fasting. Jesus came feasting. And it was all about the table. And for me, it still is. We've got to bring the church back to the table. We've got to bring our families back to the table. And we've got to bring this this world back to the table. You know, people talk about how do we save Western civilization? How do we save America? How do we save this, save that? I'm worried about saving humanity. For God so loved the world. 

Chris McAlilly : 6:12

Yeah, Len, I'm gonna jump in and ask you, I mean, part of the beauty of the table as an image, or I guess an organizing principle for the church is that it transcends Western cultures, Eastern cultures, etc. 

Len Sweet : 6:26

Right. 

Chris McAlilly : 6:26

One of the things you've done throughout the trajectory of your work is to help the church understand what is happening outside of the church in culture. I just wondered if you could offer... the word "culture," how do you define that word?

Len Sweet : 6:44

Yeah, well, it's really undefinable. "Culture" can mean any number of things. It's kind of the form that human interaction takes over time. And this is a big debate. I mean, Stan Hauerwas and I are opposite ends of this. He thinks there is such a thing as a distinctively Christian culture. And I argue that, no, Christianity is unique in that it incarnates and it indigenizes itself in every culture. That Christianity isn't this kind of hermetically sealed culture that you have to protect and preserve that passes through time in a pure state. No, Christianity, it takes the indigenous, incarnational form of whatever that culture is. So there's certain things about Jesus that we'll never know till he appears in Inuit culture or in Swahili culture. It's a very different view, I think, the Christian witness today--and we need more conversation about this-- is whether we incarnate Jesus in every culture and that's our mission, or whether our mission is to preserve a culture, a Christian culture, intact and to pass it on.

Eddie Rester : 8:10

I think one of the things that drew me to your writings early on was that. How do we incarnate the life of Christ, the witness of the church, and the culture that we're in? And one of the early books of yours I read was "Soul Tsunami." And you recently released, I don't know if you want to call it an update or a sequel to "Soul Tsunami." You talked a lot about looking at how the church in this new postmodern adventure can become something new. And now 20 years later, you're writing "Rings of Fire," which, again, talks about culture. Why did you decide that we needed kind of a second chapter to what you wrote 20 years ago?

Len Sweet : 8:59

Yeah, that's a really good question. But if you go back 10 years before that, there's an earlier attempt to relate a Sunday faith to the Monday world, if you will, in a book that came out, initially called "Quantum Spirituality," and then it became really focused on something called "Faithquakes." And I did that with Abingdon, by the way. "Faithquakes" was there's been an earthquake that has hit the culture, the landscape has changed. Then I realized very quickly that that wasn't strong enough. And then I came up with "Soul Tsunami." Where it's not an earthquake, it's a tsunami. And now I'm saying how, really, forget all that. We got these massive volcanoes that are erupting all around the world. We live on this ring of fire that we can expect these volcanoes to erupt all the time. And so we got to stop thinking "mega" and start thinking "magma," and all of that comes with a landscape that is basically lava. The good thing about that, and that's what I try and argue in the book--and I don't know if you've noticed, but in the cover I hide, you've got to look hard to see it, but a little coffee bean, because the richest soil, the best soil in which to grow coffee, which is my nectar of the gods, is lava-rich soil. It's volcanic soil. And you go to the Philippines you see actually these resurrection trees, that are just posts in the ground, just poles, get encased with this lava dust and then they start becoming a live tree. These are some of the most challenging times for the church, in this volcanic culture. 

Chris McAlilly : 10:54

One of the things...

Len Sweet : 10:54

But at the same time...

Chris McAlilly : 10:54

One of the things, Len, that struck me about Eddie when I first started working with him was, it was slightly different. I had come out of seminary. I was really interested in liturgy and had read Hauerwas and was kind of at a moment in my own faith where I felt like the church needed to kind of take a step back, assess itself, before engaging with culture. And I don't know, there was something... initially I thought it was youth ministry, that Eddie had kind of been formed in youth ministry to think about... Because in youth ministry, you have to engage. I mean, I think it's interesting that you started with your kids and talked about being at the table with them. And that's where you had access to the culture, was through, I guess, the influences of the culture on your family. I don't know there's something about Eddie's approach to ministry, as I've worked with him through the years, I think that it steps in the direction of the world around it. And what I've realized is that it's really come from, it's come in some parts from your influence. I think it's interesting that you've been reaching for other metaphors, even more extreme metaphors, to talk about the culture around us. One of the things you say early on in the book is that the Western world is more unfriendly to the church than it was 20 years ago. Talk a little bit about what you mean by that, by the culture around us as being unfriendly?

Len Sweet : 11:36

Well, it's... unfriendly is an understatement. Because this is, increasingly, a culture hostile to Christianity. I grew up in a world that the church and state kind of wash each other's hands, took care of one another, trusted one another. The culture has now washed its hands of the church. And it's hard for us to hear this. You're in Ole Miss country, and so it's hard for you all to hear this because you still are living in this little bubble, but things have radically changed. I mean, this is the former president of Ireland, she's now a professor, Mary McAleese. And this just happened, like, a couple weeks ago. She gave this speech, as the president of Ireland, which is a deeply religious country, you know, both Protestant and Catholic. But she gave a speech where she argued that infant baptism is inconsistent with human rights and needs to be banned. That the child has the right to freedom of conscience, she said. It has the right to freedom of religion, has right to the freedom of thought, and a child that has the right to choose his own religion must be protected, and it must be protected to choose no religion. So she's defining infant baptism as a violation of human rights and argues for a worldwide ban. Now, this is the new world. It's hard for us to hear this, but this is a culture--and she didn't even get into circumcision which is, you know, which she would clearly define as child abuse--this is a culture that doesn't understand us. We're back to the first century. You know, the first century, we said, there's only one God worthy of worship. Well, they worship many, many gods. So guess who got called the atheists? We were called the atheists because we only believe in one God. We don't believe in many gods. So you're an a-theist. You're against theism. You're against the worship of gods. And so the early Christians had to contend with being called atheists, we had to contend with being called cannibals--let's just talk about you eating the body and blood of Christ. What is that about? You're cannibals! And so there actually were exchanges in the the stadiums as we were being fed to the lions, and the crowds would cry out, "Atheists!" and we'd cry back to them, "Atheists!" So that's the new world. It's hard for the church to hear this.

Eddie Rester : 14:28

Was it a year or two ago, was it Rolling Stone that listed The Bible as one of the books that people didn't need to read anymore?

Len Sweet : 15:02

Exactly. Exactly it was, "we could just give up this for a couple decades, because we've already read it. Been there, done that." Yeah, exactly. And this is the new world.

Eddie Rester : 15:13

And one of the things you talk about, the word that you talk about in relation to this hostile world that we live in, you say that the church needs to be anti-fragile. And when I think about the church's response to you know, Starbucks not saying "Merry Christmas" or something, I think about Christians whining about this or crying about that, or... What does it mean for us in a world that's going to be increasingly hostile? What does anti-fragile look like for us?

Len Sweet : 15:43

Well, it really means toughen up. Don't wear emotions on your sleeve. Don't expect this culture to like you or to understand you. And don't be so fragile. Don't be so wobbly and so weak and wussified. We were the ones that stood at the gates of hell. Jesus founded his church at the gates of hell, and said, "the gates of hell will not prevail against you." And he did that, by the way, as a pun. The church is founded on a pun. "Petros--petra." We have problems of laughter and humor. Part of being anti-fragile is in the midst of all of this misunderstanding and abuse and calumnies and mockery and scourging that we're going to get, we gotta do it with a sense of humor, with a sense of lightness. We can't take it to heart... we can take it to heart, but not to our liver and not not to our kidneys and not to other body parts, which is what we're doing. This whole anti-fragile, it's a concept that I got from an author who also wrote "The Black Swan," and I just think it's a really good word for the church. Don't be... We need to toughen up and stiffen up a bit.

Eddie Rester : 16:59

One of the thing to say is that YouTube, Facebook, podcasts, other digital formats are new anti-fragile ways to preach in a hostile culture. And yeah, I think those ways, if the church can figure out how to not be angry or on the edge, we can actually do some inviting in.

Len Sweet : 17:20

I think so too. And here's the problem, though. There's a couple problems with that. One is the way in which the whole monetization of media has changed. You used to pick newspapers and other media forms, they used to survive by subscription. So you would pay to subscribe. That is no longer the case. That whole monetization of media has altered. And now you pay, not on the basis of your subscription, but on basis of your clicks, your views. So the way in which the world stimulates interest in a subject is first of all, clickbait, which we all have been subject to. And one of the most profound things we can teach our kids is, "don't click." Because if you click, your whole computer can crash, your life can crash. Don't click. The other thing is, this is a monetization based on "how do you get people engaged?" Well, you engage them by enraging them. And what media does to get the views--all media, even The New York Times, I mean, everybody's doing this--you try and stir up the emotions and the passions. And you become loyal, then, to those that stir you up the most. So you, enrage to engage. And this is hurting us. It's harming us, and the church has got to resist this. The church has got to have a witness on social media. That's part of this anti-fragile thing: that we refuse. We're to be in the world, but not of it. And of the world right now means the more you can enrange people, the more you can engage them, and the more that monetizes and the more influence and power you have. And we've got to say no to that. 

Chris McAlilly : 19:21

I think that how to get the posture right, I think is difficult. To be in the world, but not of the world. I don't know, it seems to me that, for myself, I think also for my children, part of what I feel the pressure to do is to try to figure out how to put a better boundaries so that... for instance, limiting screen time in our house for our children, feels like one of the ways in which we're going to train our children not only to be fragile, but to say that, you know, all of these external influences, it's, I don't know... I had more optimism 10 years ago that we'll be able to navigate just the incessant pressure to engage with the world around us. I don't know. It feels like as a parent of young children, like the church needs to put up a few more guardrails.

Len Sweet : 20:22

Absolutely. And we have, for example, I'm not sure I even mentioned this in the book, but we have an ethic of words. In other words, I learned growing up, and I'm sure you both did, there were certain banned words that you didn't say, because they were, when you asked, "Why can I say that word, Ma or Grandma?" and they would say, "because it's as a bad word." Words have power to get into your psyche. And then once they get into your psyche, they can soil your spirit and foul your soil. And so don't let those words in because they can take you over. They can have power. So we actually teach our kids an ethic of words. Hello. This is a culture not word-driven anymore, but image-based. You think words have power to get inside you? Images are a hundred, thousand times more powerful. And so we're still teaching our kids an ethic of words, and we have no ethic of images. There are certain images, you think there are some obscene words? There are obscene images you should never see. And you should never let them get in. Because they will addict you. They will take you over. They will overpower you. And so we have a cleansing. My grandma, I don't know, Eddie, about you, but I had a grandma and a mama who had a cleansing ritual when I use those words. I was just hoping it wasn't lye soap. I come from West Virginia. But we have no cleansing rituals for it. Once you allow those images in, how you get them out? How do you deal with them? How do you control them? So here we are still in an old mindset when we've got kids that can click and see anything, literally anything. If you think they can't, you're just sucking on your own balloon juice. Because these kids are more savvy than we are at getting around the web and seeing whatever they want. 

Eddie Rester : 22:08

We had a parents group talking about technology and screentime and all that last fall. And one of the things that Audra--my wife is a middle school principal--says, it doesn't matter what filter you put on your kid's phone. It doesn't matter what you add to the phone to try to protect them. There's a workaround that they will figure out and you won't know until it's too late. 

Len Sweet : 22:30

That's exactly right. 

Eddie Rester : 22:32

And so there's that, "how do we begin to talk early on, even long before a kid gets handed a phone at 10, 11, 12 years old? I think that's maybe...

Len Sweet : 22:44

It's not about the technology, though. 

Eddie Rester : 22:46

That's right.

Len Sweet : 22:46

See, it's about the spirit. My mother had a mantra and I didn't even remember at the time because I heard so much and then all of a sudden hit me one day. She said... we went to the public school system. She sent us to the public school system, but she still homeschooled us in Christianity. I mean, we had family prayer twice a day. We had to memorize Bible verses. We had it all. And her mantra was, "I'm not going to isolate you boys, but I am going to insulate you." "I'm not going to isolate you, but I am gonna isulate you." And she tried to pack that insulation as big as she possibly could. But we aren't even insulating our kids. We're just you know, sending them out to the wolves. I mean, we're just, "Yeah, go out there and fend for yourself."

Eddie Rester : 22:52

I was about to use that same phrase. I mean, I feel like the wolves are coming closer. I mean, they're running closer in now than they used to. They haven't, the wolves have no fear and no boundaries anymore. One of the things when...

Len Sweet : 23:47

Well, they come looking like grandmas.

Eddie Rester : 23:49

Yeah. Well, one of the things that, as I worked through the book, the middle section, I think it was the hot spots, you really cover--or the hot zones, maybe it was. You cover it all. You talk about sex, and disunity in politics and identity, suicide, race relations, incarceration, care of creation, you talk about data and science. And all of this... I'm just gonna... when I got through with that section, I was... it was... I had to stop for a while. 

Len Sweet : 24:24

It's not easy book to read in one sitting. Yeah, you gotta take it in little, little bites sometimes.

Eddie Rester : 24:30

For those of us who right now feel overwhelmed, I think as we think about all of that, what's the church's message right now in the face of all of these hot topics and hot zones?

Len Sweet : 24:46

Well, this is where if you notice in this book, I keep coming back to Jesus. Actually, coming forward to Jesus, because he's always ahead of us. I mean, He pushes us from behind, but He really pulls us from the future. He's already in this future. And that's why I am so, as you know, Eddie, I'm hypersensitive. I was with you all, with all my students. It all comes back to Christ. He is the North Star. He is that true north. If you're in the Southern Hemisphere, He is the Southern Cross, okay? But in the Northern Hemisphere, He is that one lodestar that we chart our life to. So I'm always looking for, where's Jesus in this future? Where's Jesus in this future? Where am I seeing Jesus at work in this future? That's the only way we're going to navigate this, if we keep our eyes fixed on Christ. Now, of course, that's exactly what the Scriptures tell us to do. But this is for me, not a metaphor. I mean, it's a reality. That every day it's a matter of fixing and focusing on Christ and where He is and what He's up to.

Chris McAlilly : 25:57

One of the things I'm working on, we're taping this in the season of Advent, I'm working on Mary's Magnificat for Sunday, and I came across an article about 30 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, the former Iron Curtain trail has become the longest bioto... I don't know how to pronounce that word... bi-bio-biotope chain in Europe. It's known as the European Green Belt. Have you heard about this? 

Len Sweet : 26:28

Yeah, yeah.

Chris McAlilly : 26:29

Yeah, there's something so powerful about it, because there's barbed wire and watchtowers and minefields, it's unintentionally become this pristine ecological habitat for kilometers, you know, 1200, 12,000 plus kilometers. I think about, when you talk about Jesus being in the future, I don't know, an ecological crisis and the ways in which war both kind of... we've in some ways infused the land with death, and yet in a place of worldwide environmental, and I guess, cross-cultural violence, it's a place where there is hope, where Christ is creating something new, where the the earth is being healed to a certain degree. I wonder...

Len Sweet : 27:24

Well, it... Go on. I'm sorry. 

Chris McAlilly : 27:26

No, I just wonder how do you train your eyes to see those kinds of signs of Jesus in the future?

Len Sweet : 27:36

Well, that's a really great question. And what you don't do is extrapolate from the present. I mean, if you're in the year 1945, you just won Second World War. And if I were to tell you in 50 years, your greatest allies would be Japan and Germany, how many people are gonna look at me and go, "You are bonkers." And so part of what is predictable about the future is that it is so unpredictable, that what you least expect is most likely to happen. Because God, this is the amazing thing about how the Spirit works, is the Spirit actually works wonders, works miracles, and can bring the best out of the worst. And so we've always got to be expectant, always got to be expectant and open to being ambushed by the surprise. That's why I don't like centering language, because where you are at the center and if you cling to the center and look to the center--the center of power, the center of politics, the center of anything--you're moving away from the future. Because the future is formed on the margins. The future is formed on the edges. So I look for Jesus on the edges and on the margins. And where are those little stirrings of the Spirit that I can see out there? Not at the centers, but at the edges because, again, the center in 1945, we just defeated these two evil empires and in 50 years, they're our greatest allies. So it's also training yourself. This is called semiotics, by the way, it's training yourself, not to look where everybody else is looking. And I mean, one of the questions I ask my students, my doctoral students, is 50 years from now, what are our successors and our descendants going to look back on say, "You were really so wrong about this. How could you have gotten it that wrong?" Because no generation history has looked back and said about its ancestors, "You were right about everything." We're always in the midst of tremendous mistakes, tremendous mythologies, tremendous misperceptions, wrongness. 

Chris McAlilly : 29:49

You mentioned 

Len Sweet : 29:49

And so how do you predict that?

Chris McAlilly : 29:51

You mentioned semiotics. For listeners for whom that may not be a familiar word, can you talk a little little bit about that?

Len Sweet : 30:02

Well, it's a Jesus word. One of his favorite sayings was "Red sky morning, sailors take warning. Red sky at night, sailor's delight." And then he went on to say, "You know how to read the signs of the sky. I want you to how to read the signs of the times." And the Greek word for sign is S-E-M-E-I-A, which is where we get semiotics from. So semiotics is basically the ability to read signs and the ability to communicate in signs. And by the way, this is how our world... we don't live in an economy anymore. The major currency of exchange is no longer money. It's icons. It's images. It's an iconomy, I-C-O-N-O-M-Y. That's how we communicate. That's how we value things. We monetize it, but we monetize it based not on money but on images and icons. And so the ability to read signs, it starts off with the tribe of Issachar in Chronicles, where there's a new king, they're going out for battle, and each tribe comes and says to David, "This is the gift we offer you." And the tribe of Issachar comes and says, "We are," this is Chapter 12, verse 32: "We're the tribe that knows the times and knows what to do." And so, again: semiotics. This is basically contextual intelligence. How are you contextually intelligent about the world in which you live? And semiotics is how Jesus communicated. He communicated in signs and wonders. In fact, we are right now in the middle of the season that is featuring, "this will be a sign for you." And it was said to the shepherds. So exactly right. We are called to be people of semiotic skills. 

Chris McAlilly : 31:55

Yeah I see it. 

Len Sweet : 31:55

and it's all about being contextually intelligent.

Chris McAlilly : 31:57

There is an echo or I guess, similar project, I feel like that, that Jamie Smith, James K. Smith, has been working on for several years, a series of books called "Cultural Liturgies." The image that he talks about the mall as being this profound site of worship, where here's the Abercrombie and Fitch icon. Here's the The Gap icon and the J. Crew and the Victoria's Secret

Len Sweet : 32:29

But that's over. That's over. The icons now are celebrities. That's the old economy. The new economy is you got causes, you got celebrities. That's the new iconography.

Eddie Rester : 32:46

And so in that new icononmy, as we try to lift up Christ and look to Christ, how is it that we draw people's eyes to the life of Christ? How do we tell the story again, in a way that they understand that, sure Kim and Kanye seem very important, but here's something. Here's a story that's life giving. Here's a narrative that's worth knowing.

Len Sweet : 33:14

Yeah, well, it's the Greatest Story Never Told because we don't know what is the story. We reduced it to principles and points and propositions and not narratives and soundtracks. I mean, how many people even talk about the Jesus soundtrack or really understand any Jesus story?

Chris McAlilly : 33:34

Eddie brought up Kanye. I wonder if you're listening to the new Kanye? 

Len Sweet : 33:38

If I what?

Chris McAlilly : 33:39

Are you listening to Kanye West's new album? 

Len Sweet : 33:41

Oh, yeah!

Chris McAlilly : 33:42

What's going on there? I mean, I think that's something that, there's a whole conversation.

Len Sweet : 33:46

Again, I see it as when God's anointed, appointed instruments go off on their own mission, like the church. Right now, we've got our own little missions, and one of which is survival. But God appoints and anoints and raises up strange instruments to do God's bidding and to show a way forward. God used the pagan Persian King Cyrus. God used the prostitute Rahab. God used very unlikely people throughout history. And even as part of Jesus's pedigree--he's got all the women who are mentioned in his ancestry are not the most reputable types. So you've got God using strange people to do God's mission. Sometimes God's more active in the world than in the church. So that's how I look at Kanye West. We need to study what he's doing and understand and then pray for him. I don't agree with everything anybody does. So for me that I can't pray for him and support him and love him and wish well for him because I don't agree with everything... I'm not gonna be able to pray for anybody. You aren't going to be able to pray for me because I'm sure after you read this book, you said, "I don't think Sweet's right about that." And you know, I could be wrong. But so could you. So we're all in this together. And that's part of where Christians... that's where sobremesa, we need to talk around the table. We need more sobremesa time. And by the way, let me just say one thing no parent should ever do. I'm not absolutes, but the table is never a place for technology. No technology during a meal has ever touched our table. Table time is storytime. It's people time. It's relationship time. And parents, if you will stop allowing any technology at that table when you eat, it will be a whole new world.

Eddie Rester : 35:49

That is one of Audra's biggest rules for us and in our house when you come down. 

Len Sweet : 35:56

That ought to be a mark of a Christian. A mark of a Christian: no technology on the table. 

Eddie Rester : 36:02

So we've got just a couple more minutes. One of the things that Mark Chironna, I think at the end of the book, talks about the world being on fire. And I think there's something to that. I mean, we all feel it. Just, you know, as I looked at the world and think about the world, when "Soul Tsunami" was written in '99 to 2019, 2020, the world does feel like it's on fire. So how does the church today begin to draw people to the table? How do we think in a way that helps us not live the toxicity of our culture?

Len Sweet : 36:45

Well, what beats back fire is fire, and we've got to be fired up. And we've got to have a passion for Christ, a love for Christ that is so contagious, it is so obvious, it is so consuming that people are just drawn to it. So that again, it's a good place for us to end, too, is this focus that we've got to fall in love with Jesus again. And if our time together, whatever that time is, doesn't lead us to fall more deeply in love with Jesus, then something's wrong. I just say I'm going in two opposite directions at the same time. My theology is getting more complex. And this is what, book number 60 or something? But my faith is getting more simple. I just put the two words together: simplexity. So I'm getting more complex in my theology. With every book I write, I'm adding a wing or a little balcony here. Some people say I have an edifice complex. I may. So I'm creating this theological edifice that, I think honors God but at the same time, my faith is becoming more like a child. And Jesus himself said, "unless you become as a child, you won't see the kingdom of God." So there are no grown-ups in heaven. We will only be, not childish, childlike in our faith. And my faith is getting more childlike. It's all about Jesus. Jesus loves me this I know. Just give me Jesus. It's all about Jesus and the passion that I have for him. So we can be sophisticated and complex and subtle and nuanced, but at the same time, we can also be just passionately, deeply in love with Christ.

Chris McAlilly : 38:35

For someone, we work with a lot of college students, a lot of folks who are overwhelmed by the culture around them that has taken over. They're in need of cleansing rituals. I wonder as you build the edifice, for a college student or a young person who's ready to take a step deeper in relationship with Jesus, where would you say, what's the first step? Where would you start?

Len Sweet : 39:01

Well, the first step on the way is a blocking, a rejection of what I see is the fundamental heresy of our world today. And that is we've all been taught to believe that it's the trees that move the wind. That the most powerful forces in this universe are physical, material, economic forces, visible forces. And the journey with Jesus teaches us that no, it is not the trees that move the wind. The power is not in the physical. The power is in the spiritual. But it is not in the visible; the power is in the invisible. It is the wind that moves the trees. So to get them from trusting the wind, and I mean trusting that the trunk of the tree is... you know, we have this verse, "Not by might, not by power, but it is by God's Spirit." Well we don't do that. We go, "Not by might, not by power, but it is by programs." Or "Not by might, not by power, not by programs, but just trust the process." No. It's not by might. It's not by power. It's not by programs. It's not by process. It's by the Spirit. And when you start talking this way suddenly you sound like a superstring physicist.

Eddie Rester : 40:19

Len, I want to thank you for your time today, time away from your family and your work. Really appreciate you spending this time with us. For those who are listening, I'd invite you to check out Len's podcast, Napkin Scribbles, a lot of great stuff there. If you've heard something that kind of piqued your interest here, I guarantee you, you'll find it in the podcast. And then for folks who are interested in really a deep dive into how we see and read the culture, "Rings of Fire" I think is an important book for us right now. There are questions at the end of every chapter so you can read, discuss it with a group, really dig in to that. Len, any closing words today before we head out?

Len Sweet : 41:01

No, just glad to spend some time with you. And, again, the book was twice as long as it is in front of you. It had it at 50 rings of fire, has 25. So you can thank my publisher for halving it. So it's not nearly as weighty as it could have been.

Eddie Rester : 41:19

Well, thank you, and you have a great afternoon. Thank you.

Chris McAlilly : 41:23

Thanks, Len.

Eddie Rester : 41:24

[OUTRO] Thank you for listening today. Go ahead and follow us on Facebook and Twitter. And go ahead and hit the subscribe button on whatever platform you use to listen to podcasts.

Chris McAlilly : 41:36

This wouldn't be possible without our partner, General Board of Higher Education in Ministry. We want to thank also our producer, Cody Hickman. Follow us next week. We'll be back with another episode of The Weight. [END OUTRO]