0014 - The Weight - Lo Alaman - “Lo The Poet”
Show Notes:
Christianity is often exhibited as a guide to truth and morality, but descriptions often fall short of its ability to help us access the fullness of beauty. Creatives are needed in Christianity to help guide the Church on a journey to engaging the fullness of God’s own creative power.
One creative who does this faithfully is Lo Alaman. Lo serves as the Director of Community Life at The Harvest Church in The Woodlands, Texas. In addition to his day job, Lo is well known for his spoken word that he crafts to help people have a fuller grasp of the beauty offered to us all through the gospel of Jesus Christ. Lo has performed throughout the country and is emerging as one of the utmost creative leaders within Wesleyan movements in the South.
In today’s episode, Lo helps us discern the essential nature of creativity in the Church’s work of guiding people to an holistic understanding of the love of Jesus Christ. We also discuss the ways in which the creative skill sets of the emerging generation should be more valued by the Church as it continues to grow in size and mission.
The Weight - Afterthoughts:
We've realized that a lot of great conversation actually happens AFTER we say goodbye to our guests and turn the microphones off. So, we decided to turn the mics back on (and a camera) and create a new segment called, Afterthoughts.
This will live on our new YouTube channel and you can find our Afterthoughts on this episode NOW!
Resources:
As mentioned, Lo’s spoken word performance for his wife during his wedding went viral on Facebook and Youtube, serving as validation of the reach that creative expressions can have. Watch it here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rbC1uq4hwmA3Ax8_B_TvoQGH7hyO6Fc2b9XLc5KqQ_M/edit?usp=sharing
Here is a curated list of his performances at the church he currently serves, Harvest Church.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJhvjAmHgkApShZrd7pHcQucXs5aIG6bx
One of his most shared pieces, Lo performs “The Gospel” at RHETORIC 2015.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuG5aRgtCKk
Follow Lo on Social Media:
Tik Tok: @lohasgoodnews
Instagram: @lothepoet
Full Episode Transcript:
Eddie Rester: My name’s Eddie Rester.
Chris McAlilly: And I’m Chris McAlilly.
ER: We welcome you again to The Weight, a podcast where we try to look at some of the big questions and tackle some of the things that other people are talking about in the world.
CM: Yeah, this is going to be a great conversation, as we’ve clearly laid out for you in our introduction here.
ER: What Lo offers to us is a perspective of art and creativity that I think opens us, and what I received in his conversation today was this great passion to help, not only for him to tell the story well, but to enable and encourage others, he said, “take on the mantle of storyteller.”
CM: I am inspired. By your inspiration.
ER: Well, thank you. If you’re not familiar with Lo’s poetry, we’ve got a bunch of links for you in the show notes, we’ll put those out as well. But check those out, and listen and enjoy today’s conversation.
[INTRO]
ER: Let’s be honest. There are some topics that are too heavy for a 20-minute sermon. There are issues that need conversation, not just explanation.
CM: We believe that the church is called to engage in a way that honors the weightiness and importance of these topics for how we live faithfully today. We’ll cover everything from art to mental health, social injustice, to the future of the church.
ER: If it’s something the culture talks about, we need to be talking about it, too.
[END INTRO]
CM: well, we’re here today with Lo Alaman. We’re excited to have him on the podcast. Lo is the director of community life at the Harvest in… where are you Lo? Where are you located?
Lo Alaman: Woodlands, Texas, it’s, like, north of… it’s a north suburb of Houston.
CM: We’re so glad that you’re here today, man. Thanks for taking some time to be on the podcast.
ER: We miss you in Oxford.
LA: Yes, man. I miss y’all, too. I miss the food. I miss the faces.
CM: We miss you as well.
ER: You bring a little energy when you come into a room, Lo, and that’s what I like about you.
LA: yeah. Especially… ah, I also bring a lot of color.
[laughter]
ER: Lo, tell us a little bit about the… just about your life, what’s going on right now. you’ve had a lot of good changes, a lot of things happening to you in the last year or two.
LA: As of late, we’re hanging out in the Woodlands, Texas, just started working here in doing community ministry. I’m also married to a chocolate woman named Erika who just finished grad school. We have a one-year-old daughter who is the most brilliant, beautiful baby in the world. Life’s pretty good right now. With the exception of being stuck in the house due to the whole shelter-in-place thing, I can’t think of any other way life would be.
CM: Yeah, everybody that we’ve talked to, it’s… not everybody, there’s real suffering that’s out there, but I think that for a lot of people there’s anxiety in the big picture, but day-to-day there’s a lot of joy, silver lining.
LA: Yeah, man.
ER: Getting to spend time with
LA: I think part of it has been, there’s this pace that we were going at that probably wasn’t the healthiest. I know that’s true for my life. I was working at a church full time but also doing speaking engagements and working on artistry stuff, and I just wasn’t home as often as I have the privilege to be now. It’s been weird, you know, engagements slowing down. That has an impact on our finances for sure, and there’s some anxiety that comes there. At the same time, I think there’s a sweet thing that God has carved out time for us to be family again and just have moments together that, it’s cool. It’s good stuff.
CM: Can you point to moments within the last couple months where you feel like you’ve seen God at work or seen grace break in for you and your family?
LA: Yeah, for sure. When we were moving, we actually moved into the top of the pandemic, and so Houston was shutting down, San Antonio was shutting down where we were living, and we basically were like, we have to move right now or else we might get stuck in where we were in San Antonio. So we take off, pack up our whole house, we come down here, and people are, like, sheltering in place so we’re thinking we’re going to have to unload our whole lives, pack it up from one city, move it to another city all by ourselves. As hard as that would have been, it just kind of wasn’t our story. We had a lot of folks from our church, our community just kind of welcomed us—in a safe, you know, six-feet-away kind of way—but we just had a lot of support and people just kind of loving on us in really cool ways. I think God knew that I was anxious, and I had a lot of things I was worried about. Our house hadn’t sold by the time we moved, so we were paying rent and mortgage for a season, and that sucks butt.
ER: Mmhmm. yes it does.
LA: In the midst of all that, we were completely taken care of. By both the generosity of our community here, as well as just like random, kind of even supernatural stuff. Like, we didn’t know we had a bill due, and I guess the company didn’t know it was due, either, and they were just like, “All right, cool. No problem.”
ER: Wow.
LA: Yeah, man, we’ve been provided for.
ER: One of the ways people know you is Lo the Poet. And a lot of folks who are listening probably don’t know that about you, so, tell us a little bit, and we’re going to get into some of kind of where your poetry has gone, but tells how that gift emerged in you, and where that’s taken you, and just what that’s meant as you’ve walked the road becoming known as Lo the Poet.
LA: Sure. Well, for me, I wanted to be a rapper when I was
ER: I did, too.
LA: Come on, Eddie.
ER: I think that’s what I wanted to do.
LA: It’s not too late!
ER: Is it not?
CM: It’s not… Lo, it’s way too late. It’s way too late.
ER: With your encouragement, Lo, I might step into that. Thank you. Thank you for that.
LA: Eddie the Rapper is what the world needs.
ER: I think so. Thanks, Lo.
LA: [laughter] that’s what the world needs. So I wanted to be a rapper when I was younger, and I remember, I was like a turd of a human. I just, I was not following Jesus. I actually moved from California to Mississippi when I was in the seventh grade. And the culture shock of that from LA to a small town called Columbia, Mississippi, it was just so weird. And I was always off put by how Christian everybody was. Like, church was a mandatory part of life. But it just wasn’t a real part of the lives I kind of saw. And so I was off put by the church. I didn’t really care about the whole Jesus thing. And when I got to college, I just kind of rejected it altogether. When I was in, you know, my freshman year, I did a poor job of being a student. Partied and drank kind of my whole freshman year, and had to go to summer school to fix all the damage I had done. When I did so, there was nobody on campus during summer school. It was just me and a bunch of weird kids. And a group of those weird kids just happened to be followers of Jesus. They were also artists, and started mentoring me, pouring into me, and recognizing all the pain and the angst that I kind of held onto. They were like, “Hey, Jesus can do something about that.” And so I started doing life with them. They were artists, you know, some of them were painters, some were poets, some did, like, plays. And as I was following Jesus, I figured, well, I should definitely not do rap anymore because all I was rapping about was drinking and smoking and, you know, partying and girls, and it was like, there’s no way God could redeem this, so I’m going to shelf that and try and figure out, you know, morality and this whole Christian thing as best I can. Somebody poured into me and was just like, hey, God can redeem those things that the world may have perverted. And so if you have a gift in this, keep writing. So what started off as journaling and as sharing amongst my friends, I think God started moving me. And I remember the first time I shared a poem, and somebody came up to me afterwards and was like, “hey, everything you shared was, like, about my life, like directly.” I couldn’t take credit for that. I didn’t know who this person was, it was just something the spirit had done. I remember saying, “God, if this is something you’re into, let’s keep doing this.” So yeah, one poem after another, one event after another, became a ministry and something i was able to travel with and do life with, and it’s been a huge blessing.
ER: You even have one of your poems go viral. Your wedding poem really
LA: Sure
ER: destroyed the internet for a bit. What was that like?
LA: It was weird man. So it was actually for our wedding, my wife, about three months before we got married said, “hey, I want you to write a poem as I walk down the aisle.” and I’m like, cool, it’s whatever, I’ll write it. And we’re dirt-poor, fresh out of college kids, so we ain’t got no money, so we, we’re trying to figure this wedding out, have some special pieces in there that are just unique to us and nothing crazy. One of her aunts ended up saying she couldn’t make it, but wanted to offer a gift for us which was to hire a videographer for the wedding. And so, yeah, I was like, cool, whatever. We have the wedding. Poem happens. It’s a beautiful time. I get married. She gets my last name. Everything’s great. We call from our honeymoon--we’re in Puerto Rico--and my mom is blowing up my phone. She’s calling, calling, calling, she’s like.. And I answer the phone, and I’m like, “hey, I’m kinda occupied?” Like, what’s…
[laughter]
What’s so important? And she said “you need to get on the YouTubes right now, you’re going viral.” I was like, “Mom, you don’t even know what viral is.”
[laughter]
I hung up the phone. And so, we didn’t have a video. We didn’t pay for the videographer. I didn’t realize this, but her aunt had gotten the video back and had asked the guy to post it. And so when we did get on Facebook, i think at the time it had 7 million views on Facebook and 13 million on YouTube. Some crazy numbers like that. And then celebrities started reposting it, and it was like, what in the world is going on? And we were getting DMs from people from the United Kingdom and people from different parts of Africa, just like, “hey, pray for our marriage.” It was like, what the heck is happening? It was super weird, and kinda cool.
A year before that, we had made a list of goals, things we wanted to do before we got married. And my wife had put on there, she wanted to finish, you know, grad school before we got married. That didn’t happen. I had written I wanted a job in full-time ministry. That wasn’t a thing. And one of the things we had written on there was we wanted to minister the gospel to a million people. And i remember my wife was like, “maybe don’t put, that’s a little ambitious.” And I was like, “Eh, all right. I’ll take it off.” And then it actually happened.
ER: The one thing you took off the list.
LA: I know, right?
CM: That poem is, it’s beautiful. I guess, talk about how you, how you think about that. How do you think about taking a moment.. I mean, what’s beautiful about it to me, and i think this is a gift of your poetry, is you make something that’s quite structured and clearly well thought out look effortless. And I think that’s the way all great art really is, when you see something that’s written, rehearsed, and delivered, but with a sense of a real genuineness. And then I think the thing, weddings, weddings just like have a, there’s a surprising element there, because weddings are so conventional. You go to a wedding, you know what’s gonna happen at a wedding. And there was something about that poem, I guess from my perspective being someone who performs a lot, I go to a lot of weddings as a pastor. You, you just don’t expect, I mean, the best moments in a poem are always the unexpected ones, when, you know, when one of the bridesmaids knees lock up and she passes out or somebody drops one of the rings,
[laughter]
CM: whatever. But I think what you did was something that was, and I think this is just unique to your gift, that you take something that’s ordinary or something that’s not surprising and you infuse it with a, there’s a kind of new life there.
LA: Yeah.
CM: How do you think about it from your side? That’s just me observing or listening to your stuff through time. How do you think about it?
LA: I don’t want to be, like, hyper-spiritual about it, but I do think that what we would call artistic and what we would call creativity, I think is in some ways a Biblical take on what is prophetic. And so if you read in the Old Testament, like, prophets in the Old Testament were called “seers,” like they saw the world differently, you know? It implies they have this vision for something that’s beyond what it is on the natural side on the surface of it, but they see it deeper, maybe even seeing how God sees it. What I love to do, so my own prayer time with God is I journal. And typically my journaling time will include, like, writing a poem. I try to just practice on about, and maybe it was like seven years ago now, I try to journal and write a poem every day. And intentionally looking at my life, intentionally looking at, you know, my circumstances, looking at scripture, looking at people, and just praying, “God, help me see this instant, see this moment, see you, see myself, see my friends, see folks I don’t even know, the way you see them.” And I think that exercise, it’s like a muscle, you know? You keep flexing it, you keep asking for it, you keep knocking, and eventually I guess for me, at least, I desire to see things more poetically than I see them how they currently are. There are some hard things that we wrestle with in our world, and I think that good art can kind of challenge the things that we call normal, to kind of maybe say, “hey, maybe this isn’t what you thought it was.” And it also can kind of offer some kind of comfort and maybe even hopefully--prayerfully--some healing in things that are difficult. And so I think my prayer has always been, since doing this whole poetry thing, is, “God let me see this through your eyes. If there doesn’t seem to be hope on the surface, show me a deeper perspective on where hope can be.” Or if there isn’t any, if you’re not okay with the things we see, the same way prophets called out the injustice of their day, I think there’s some powerful poetry moments where we can call out, and just some artistic moments, where we can call out, “hey, this thing is unjust. This isn’t right. These people aren’t being seen. These people are marginalized.” Whatever it looks like, to step into that story, I think art has a chance to maybe say a thing that’s a hard truth in a more poetic, maybe metaphoric way that makes it more palatable for people to wrestle with.
ER: And you’ve done that across time. You’ve really hit some… you had a prayer against racial divides. You really, you return to some themes over time I think over time where you talk about the value and the worth of people. Is that something you intentionally do or is that just where God leads you as you begin to let the poetry move through you?
LA: I think it’s a little bit of both. There was… when the Ahmaud Arbery case instance happened, i remember being angry. And I told my wife, “I’m about to write a really angry black poem. Like, it’s coming.” And my energy and my angst was all heading that way. And there was this moment where the Spirit convicted me and was like, “nothing you’re saying is wrong. Nothing you’re saying is not what you feel. And as visceral as it is, as true as it is for you, I also want to offer you another perspective.” And that week I wrote a poem about joy, which was the farthest thing from what I felt. But it felt like there was a need there, like, in the midst of there being a lot of fuel on fire, and all of that is rightly so and necessary, what I felt like the Spirit was quickening me to do was not challenge any of the thoughts that were out there, but to offer more perspective. Not even perspective on the case, but to offer, “hey, in the midst of our anger, there is still a joy present that the world cannot touch.” Which is kind of crazy. Yeah, I think there are moments where I intentionally want to just be where I want to be with it, and I think God leads me another way. There are other times when I’m asked to write a poem about something, and I do myself to stay true to what I’m being asked of, but sometimes it veers left of that. Trying to stay true to the art and true to what I think God is leading me in, hopefully He makes it makes sense as it goes in translation. I remember, I was in California for a show, and I was coming back home, and my family has a GroupMe. I was messaging my family, saying, hey, I’m getting on a plane, I was flying, had a layover in Philadelphia--which was the worst airport I’ve ever been to. The Philadelphia has a Chick-Fil-A in there, and it’s not their pleasure to serve you. Like, it’s that bad. And so I’m coming home, and my sister said she had a flight layover in Oakland, and she was like, Oakland’s the worst airport ever. And I tell her, I talk text her, I put the little microphone thing, I say, “I bet it’s not worse than Philly.” And end the call, get on the plane, put my phone on airplane mode. When I land, I open my phone up, my phone’s blowing up with all my family members, like I had gone viral again or something. And they’re basically telling me I’m the worst person ever, and I’m like, “What did I do?!” When I had talk text, I hadn’t realized this, I said, “I bet it’s not worse than Philly,” and my phone heard, “B-I-T-C-H, you’re not worth a filly.”
ER: Oh.
LA: I have no idea how that happened. My mom’s on this text, my aunts and uncles are like, “what are you doing? What is wrong with you?”
[laughter]
ER: And you’re just gone.
LA: I know, I know. But something happens, and that word comes, and things can get lost in translation, you know? Like, you can say a word and between my lips to your ears, there’s no telling what might happen in the space those words have to travel. And so my prayer has always been, like, God, I’m going to stay true to wherever you convict me with, and just trust that as these words travel where they go, you’ll make the message make sense. ‘Cause I can write the most beautiful thing I think in the world, and it be lost on the hearer, if God hasn’t pricked their heart, you know what I mean?
CM: I want to come back to, I want to go to that place, that place between words spoken and words heard, but before I do that, I want to come back to something you said, just kind of, what you were thinking and what you were feeling in the aftermath of the Ahmaud Arbery story. One of the articles I read that I’ve read two or three different times. It’s by a guy Esau McCaulley, you ever come across him? He’s up at Wheaton College. He wrote a piece in the New York Times. The title was, “Ahmaud Arbery and the America that Doesn’t Exist. Black Americans need more than a trial and a verdict.” He kind of works his way through that as an African American New Testament scholar, and at the end of the article, it’s interesting, he said there are some people that committed themselves to running 2.23 miles as a nod to the date that he was killed on Friday, which would have been his 26th birthday. Another way to honor his life is to find room for joy, knowing that we are not alone in our struggles.
LA: Yeah
CM: And it’s interesting that you would go that direction, and I think that there’s something there within Black art in America that has always gone there, that sees suffering not just as something that is coming and it victimizes, but
ER: And to be endured
CM: Yeah, but there’s a way in which… there’s a way in which, I mean, Mississippi is one of the places from which the spirituals come, the Blues, hip-hop, soul, and gospel. Black poetry and fiction and film. There’s almost like this defiance in the joy
LA: Yeah.
CM: that says, “there’s going to be work to be done.” All the emotions are there. There are a range of different ways to engage, but if you’re gonna have, you’re gonna have to have hope along the way and joy along the way. Is it, does that resonate with you? I found it powerful when I read that the first time.
LA: Yeah, absolutely. I think my take on Black art in general is kind of that. It’s like, how, it’s the audacity to say, “This is beautiful, even though everything around me says it’s not.” It’s the audacity to find beauty when everything around me suggests that beauty does not exist. There’s actually, one of my favorite poets and authors is Dr. Joshua Bennett. Brilliant thinker, brilliant artist--he’s been a spoken-word artist for a long time--recently he just developed these long essays about Black joy and resilience. And he takes a lot from James Baldwin, and his whole angle is that, actually one of his lines in his poem is that, “this joy is no illegal substance.” But to see blackness and to see joy and to see it sitting in our hearts and to see it sitting in our mouths, that’s a good thing. And there is many things that want to attack that, you know, to see, you know, a young boy lose his life, and the moment that Trayvon Martin is killed, the first conversation is not, “Oh, he was someone who lost his life, he was someone who was attacked, who was hunted down.” the conversation instantly becomes, “let’s criminalize him. Let’s show how bad of a person he was.” As if to say he is not worthy of dignity, his life wasn’t worth being ___. Same thing with Ahmaud Arbery, like, before we have a conversation about, “this mother’s heart is broken,” before we have a conversation about, “this dude was literally on a jog and did nothing wrong. Committed no crime.” And even with the suspicion of a crime, these people are, it’s vigilantism to chase him down and attack him. Well the response then becomes, “Well, let’s say what laws he was breaking. Maybe he was entering into the house. Maybe he was… whatever it is.” And with this conversation brings us to it with Black art, I think where our resilience is often celebrated, for us to be able to hold onto joy in the midst of the brokenness--yes that’s something to be appreciated. But for a time, it would be great to say, “we don’t have to have that resilience.” It would be good to say, “My joy is joy. My life is my life. And i don’t want to pit it up against the hardship of oppression or of stereotype or stigma. I just want it to be joy. I just want it to be life.” You know?
ER: You know, when you talk about life, I think that, we were talking before we started recording, that part of what you do well in the spoken word is really point to dignity and the worth of people. And we were just chatting before we started about how hard that is for the individual to hold on to, that they have worth and dignity. But i think sometimes it’s hard for us to look out across at the other and see worth and dignity in the other, regardless of race, gender, life choices… So, tell me, why do you think it’s so hard for us individually or even corporately to hold onto what you speak so powerfully about, about worth and dignity of people?
LA: Well, I think it’s manifold, right? One thing is, you’re talking about how do we hold on to a narrative that says we’re worthwhile, that says that we’re made in God’s image, that says that we’re loved, regardless of action or performance. And though that’s the truest narrative, though that’s the most beautiful narrative, it’s not the most common one, nor is it the loudest, right? There are so many other stories, that this story is trying to find its way in. We all know, it’s how you grow up, you know. You do something right, and your parents applaud you. They say “good job.” And you then internalize it and say, “Oh, when I do good, people approve of it.” And so that’s a narrative that you’ve now created, it’s a story you’re not told with words, but with action with your growing, with your maturation. And so that story’s being told, and keeps being told. I mean, you have media telling you a story. I mean, you have, what I would classify as, scripturally speaking, you know, the enemy telling you a story. And you have this narrative the world, the narrative of the enemy, the narrative of your own flesh, and all this creates a culture of stories, a culture of narratives that the Gospel has to somehow speak into. What’s cool about that is that’s not an uncommon thing. In fact, when you start to read scripture, you learn that God has given us a story in the midst of another story being told. You know? I recently learned this a couple years ago, but the creation narrative in scripture wasn’t the only creation narrative, but it was told in the backdrop of several other oral traditions at the time, the Egyptian creation myths of Heliopolis, the Babylonian Enuma elish, there are several stories being told in this ancient context about who people are and who God is. And in the midst of that, God says, “Hey, I don’t want to reject this culture outright, what I want to do is I want to tell a different story in the midst of this culture.” It’s the same thing that happens with Jesus, when he enters into the realm of public opinion, there are several stories that the Pharisees believe and the sinners and the tax collectors believe. And then Jesus starts to tell parables, offering a different story in the midst of the stories they’ve been told about themselves, about each other, and about God. And I think the challenge for us as followers of Jesus is to then become storytellers, and acknowledge, hey, whether I’m an artist, whether I’m, I work construction or I’m a pastor, I’m a dentist, or whatever you are, I think we all carry this, we should carry this mantle of storyteller that says, “in the midst of the stories that are being told around us, what Jesus does, what God has often done is He tells a different story in the midst of culture.” Not to reject culture or walk away from it, but to tell a different story in the midst of it.
CM: I think that the difficulty is always taking up cultural forms that are there and available within a particular place, you know, whether it’s a particular medium or it’s a particular form of art. So I think you spoke beautifully about the way in which hip-hop for you was redeemed and then put towards a new end in terms of content. I also wonder for you--I just have to say, it’s really sweet. Is that your daughter in the background?
LA: [laughs] It is. I know y’all can hear that.
CM: No, that’s sweet.
ER: She’s awesome.
CM: No, you’re, that’s so sweet, man. It’s, um, that’s beautiful. I think the other, the difficult thing is both content and then also medium or forms. So I saw recently that you broke down and joined TikTok, and your handle on TikTok is “LoHasGoodNews.” Talk a little bit about how, and I think this is a real challenge for Christians that are operating in a range of digital space right now. How do you engage cultural art forms or medium in a way that doesn’t deform the message?
LA: I think it starts with, one, again, the story, right? What do we believe is true about God’s heart? My personal conviction, and I believe y’all’s conviction, and our conviction as followers of Jesus is that, he says, “I’ve come to seek and save that which was lost,” meaning wherever there’s somebody lost, that’s where I want to tell a good story. Like, wherever there’s somebody who is not broken for the heart of God, who may be thinking about themselves as, um, for lack of better words, actually that’s wildly inappropriate, I won’t say that… somebody who may think of themselves as what kids will call a clout chaser, like “I’m only as good as my likes and my followers. I’m only as good as the next big thing.” It’s who those kids are. And whether we want to believe it or not, they’re receiving stories there. And so whenever I think kids are receiving the most stories--not just kids, all of us--wherever the story is being told to us most, I think that’s where traditionally God puts a different story in that, in the midst of that culture. And so for us, I think being convicted by the story first then should shape how we tell it. Like, if I’m convinced that God loves each and every last one of these people as daughters and sons. And for a long time, my narrative was, “oh, we’re sinners, and because God’s grace has been applied to our lives, now we’re daughters and sons.” But when you read the story, it’s that we’re daughters and sons first. And then we sin. And then Jesus redeems and brings us back into the fold. In Romans 8 we’re now adopted into this then because of what Christ has done. And so my personal heart is convicted for adoption, obviously, having adopted a child, and that narrative, it thrusts me into action. You know? And so when the story compels us first, when the story hits us first, then it challenges, “Okay, how do we then want to tell the story?” Because there’s a lot of Christian gatekeepers that say, “Oh, you can’t do it this way.” or “You shouldn’t do it this way.” All of which I would say, if you’re heart’s broken for the lost, then you’ll see the lost. And you won’t be so caught up on the medium, so to speak. There’s a lot of conversation right now about TikTok and Instagram and their algorithms and how they’ve pushed pervasive material towards you, and very much so, that’s what they’re designed to do. But that’s what the culture kind of has done for a long time. And God still chose to push his story in it. The flesh that we wear has often been turned against God, and yet God comes in flesh, you know? And so to incarnate hope in our world looks like finding those things that are maybe detestable, maybe not what the typical American-viewed version of Christianity would do, and say, “well the lost are there, so we’re going there, because we have a good story to tell there.”
CM: What would you say to someone who doesn’t see themselves as… I mean, so there are Christian leaders that are, that listen to this podcast, and there are Christians, but there are people that are curious, that are just kind of out there. And, you know, and I think sometimes, you know, I guess, basically how would you, what would you say to them if they’re struggling to kind of find their way into the church, or kind of, as, or... I guess another way to put it would be, what would you say to yourself before you ended up, you know, joining up with those weird kids in the summer, you know what I mean? What would you say to the kid that looks at Christian culture as it’s presented to them or as they have discovered it or found it, and who just hasn't been able to find a way in? And is, is, really wants to find something that’s true and good and beautiful
LA: Yeah
CM: What would you say to them today?
LA: What I try to do with my poetry and with music and whatever is to acknowledge how the story has been told in a harmful way. So I would deal with scripture first. I was handed when it came to scripture was it was a rule book, and if you don’t live into this thing right, basically, hell’s waiting for you. And it’s super hot there, it’s like Mississippi times two in the summer, so
ER: I like that you say just times two. Not times a hundred, just times two. That’s… I think that’s right.
LA: Mississippi’s hot enough as it is, man. But I would deal with the false narrative and say that’s not really what scripture is. By and large, just reading it, it’s like, 45% narrative, 500 chapters of, like, narrative story being told. It’s like 35%, 33% poetry, which means God should engage your imagination and your way of thinking about things. Like 25%, less than 25% of actual rules--and most of those come in the context of letters and speeches. And so, by and large, what scripture is, the Bible’s trying to tell you a story. It’s God inviting you to engage your imagination and your heart and your emotions. It’s instruction, and it’s giving guidance, but as Proverbs says, in the way that leads to life. And so, if your misgivings about scripture is it’s some kind of misogynistic, you know, rule book that God handed down from heaven, no. It’s a story written by real people that God has invited into full, and you’re just as invited. If a lot of their misgivings is about the whole corporate worship thing, and I don’t raise my hands, I don’t love an acoustic guitar, and Chris Palmer doesn’t get me jazzy, like, if that’s not your thing that's totally fine. But I would point their hearts to how God has often moved through all kind of creative means. Again, like, a third of your Bible is poetry, and it’s not limited to, you know, worship looking like it has to be a certain sound or a certain look. In fact, Paul said, Romans 12, worship is a lifestyle. It’s how your heart is postured towards the Father and towards his people and towards yourself, even. And so if your misgivings is what corporate worship looks like, I would encourage you that’s not what God’s after. He doesn’t really care if your arms are raised. It’s beautiful, I think He loves it when that happens, but that’s not what his main priority is. Jesus didn’t die so that you could sing on key. He died because he desires to have you back a part of his family. And then lastly, if your issue is about, and this is like a big one, the way in which our culture is almost the antithesis of what, you know, our complete rejection of Gospel is, whether it’s sexuality or whether it’s smoking or whether it’s whatever it is, all those rules and laws, I’m not gonna tell you that God doesn’t have a desire for your life. That He doesn’t have an opinion an opinion about what’s good for you or bad for you. But the reality is, He’s not saying, “Hey, do this right or else.” He’s saying, “I’ve died, and I’m offering you the power of my spirit so that that thing which is actually harmful for you doesn't stay there, you know?” The analogy I always give is I have a child who is beautiful and awesome and perfect, but she poops, and it’s just terrible. She eats organic food because she has a weird kind of stomach, and organic poop just smells different from regular poop. When it happens, my job as a dad is not to look at her and say, “I forgive you of your poop. Now clean it up by yourself.” But it’s to step in in grace and say, “What you cannot do for yourself, I’ll do.” I won’t just leave you in your mess, but I’ll clean it up. And it’s also grace to teach you how to change her own diaper eventually, but yeah. So the conversation of grace for you, friend, is, hey you may not have it all together. And those things in which you think God is trying to harp on you and it seems like it’s rules and legalistic or whatever, there are there are things that are harmful. Sin is a brokenness. And Jesus comes to take that away from us, as well as to invite us to a life that is, what he says, is full.
ER: One of the things I think about as you talk about story and what scripture really is and how to engage in worship, I think that so often what the church has done is created, whether it’s a rigidity around scripture or some rigidness around worship or what you have to believe, what you can’t believe, is that we have excluded in that time creativity and beauty at times. And we, to be quite honest, we have excluded a lot of artists who we’ve said, “if you don’t match what we think, do, and how we do things, then your gift just doesn’t have a place.” And yet, if we’re gonna be storytellers, I think it’s more about just encouraging people in ways to find their way of telling stories.
CM: Yeah, let me piggy back on that, because this is something that almost every day, Cody, our producer, we’ve talked a lot about this recently, that the church doesn’t have a way, right now, perhaps there are certainly larger churches, churches that have a lot of resources, the church doesn’t have a way to receive the calling of young people who have real gifts and talents that are creative towards not just--and also, we don’t tend to think of, we tend to think of Christianity as presenting a vision of the truth or maybe morality and goodness, but we don’t often push deeply enough into beauty as a way in. That’s always been there, though, you go to the great European cathedrals, and you see beautiful paintings and mosaics and what not. And then you go, you know, there are just different cultural forms in different places where the Gospel has taken root, and I think in American culture in 2020, one of the things that it feels to me like the church has to do a much better job of receiving, basically saying to young people who are kind of inclined in the direction of art and cultural forms that are, you know the range of different things that are available within pop culture in American in the 21st century. How do we offer, how do we receive the calling of those folks and then how do we honor the work that God is doing in that? It does seem like you’ve kind of found your way a little bit, but what would you say to the church, maybe church leaders or others in the church who are beginning to really think about how they’re going to offer the Gospel during a pandemic and then beyond. I feel like a lot of people are doing a lot of virtual communication in various forms right now, and I don’t see the church going back to… I think it would be, actually, not a smart idea. I think we’ve found ways to communicate the Gospel in some very innovative ways, but I wonder what you would say to just that whole reality. The church’s ability to receive young people create, the creative and calling towards aesthetic beauty in this particular cultural moment that may be calling the church to some different ways of life.
LA: What I would say is kind of two things. One is your silence on this subject, it won’t be tolerated. There’s just too many platforms for my generation and a little younger and a little older. There’s just too many platforms that they can have a voice now. And so if you tell them that they can’t have a voice, in our context, we’re saying that their voice is not allowed. Well, they’re allowed to have a voice everywhere else. And whether that means through TikTok or social media platforms or whatever it is, there’s so much in our world today to where kids are able to say, “I have a voice. I have an opinion. I can get it out there.” Now what that does is it leads several people to become the new authority. And if we ourselves are not willing to speak truth in the place where culture actually is, not willing to go to where they are, then someone’s going to volunteer itself. Whether it’s hyper spiritualism, whether it’s self-love and self-help books, whatever that content is, there are several things that are offering their opinions and several leaders are offering their opinions that may not be rooted in the Gospel. And so if our hearts are really broken for that, then it, we can’t accept not speaking into where our culture is, as well as we can’t accept not offering young people to be trained in how to use their voice, ‘cause they’re gonna use it. That training can’t go, we can’t go without it. The same thing I would say, too, though is a bit of encourage, something i’ve been wrestling with, i think that there has been such a need for a virtual presence in the world. I think you’re right, we won’t go back to whatever we called normal before this. But i’m also becoming more and more convinced that this is not going to be the new norm, either. There’s a… I’m tired of Zoom meetings. I don’t like ‘em, and i think that there are so many people who have adapted to an elevated screen time, but I don’t think they enjoy it nearly as much as they thought they would.
ER: I grade my days by how few Zoom meetings I have.
LA: Oh my gosh, man, come on. Come on.
CM: Yeah, so I want to press into this a little bit because it gets back to that thing that we didn’t get back to at the beginning: the difference between poetry in the room with people, in a live worship experience, and then offering a poem in front of a screen, or in front of a camera that will then be broadcast kind of in all the different channels in all the different ways. What’s the difference between those two forms of communication? What’s the difference live and in-person spoken-word poetry in the midst of a live and in-person physical embodied worship experience and then offering something that you know will maybe find a way, the YouTube stuff that you’re doing, there are thousands of views years after you do it. There’s kind of a long tail there, but what’s going on between the words spoken and the words heard for you?
LA: Yeah, man, the medium of spoken word is really interesting, in that it was, it kind of came out of this late 60s, early 70s movement to say “we want to be able to gather together and let the lyrics move us.” You know, so it was almost like a concert out of literary art. And it had a powerful movement, especially because of, like, slam poetry, and you know, it wasn’t a new thing, but at least how it was urbanized and what mostly Black culture did with it, and Latin culture as well, it just became this environment to where, I don’t even care what you say. I care about how you make me feel with these words. And that feeling has, aw man, it vibrates in the room almost. And so, that I think is the same equivalent of listening to a song versus going to a live show. Or listening to worship music versus actually being in a room full of people worshiping together. There's just something about us being connected and being together that something happens in the assembly, man. It’s different. I will say, I’m able to do significantly more through creative mediums like when I’m recording something or putting images and splicing music together to make a video, whatever that looks like. I’m able to create more outside of the moment, but there’s more of a feeling of connecting in the moment. And I don’t think that that’s, I don’t think that’s, you know, by happenstance. I think that’s how God has wired us. That Genesis 2 not good for man to be alone type thing. There’s something that happens when we’re in a relationship in connection with each other. And so what I’m wrestling with right now, and I want to keep doing it, is I’ve taken it upon myself to create something every day or write something every day and to lean into all of the creative mediums I have available. But at the same time, I want to be thinking intentionally how do these words, you know, have a lasting effect to where I can still use them whenever we’ll all gathered together, you know?
ER: Right. And I think as we think about, some people don’t like the term “new normal” or any of that, but I think as we begin to lean forward now, what we’ve learned is that people can connect virtually, digitally, but there’s this need. So how do we faithfully meld the two together in the next couple of years? I think that’s the challenge, part of the challenge, not just for church but maybe for businesses and other groups, community leaders, as well. How do we take the best of what we’ve learned in a really, really hard season and meld it to what we know from the past? And that’s gonna require us to jettison some stuff, that’s gonna require us to rewire some stuff, to think creatively about a lot of stuff. We’ve got a couple minutes left, I want to ask you one more question. Christ may have another question, too, but as you think about your daughter, one year old, let’s project forward to when she’s your age. What do you hope, for her?
LA: I was at a conference in September last year, and this lady kind of asked me a very similar question. She was like, “What are you praying, like, asking God for when it comes to your daughter? What are you hoping for?” And I spouted off all these things that I want to have happen for her. She was like, “yeah, that’s all cool. That’s cute. But what is He telling you is true about her?” And I’m like, “aw, crap. I don’t know.” ‘Cause there’s all these kind of hopes and expectations that I have for her life to look like, and then, just, again, wanting to see things the way God sees them, and wanting to lean into what is whether artistic, creative, or prophetic, like wanting to know, what did He put her on this earth for? What did He hope for her? And so, it’s kind of a cop-out answer, but it’s currently a conviction I’m wrestling with, as she is asking for her baby in the background. Man, so my wife did grad school, learning about, like, she did early childhood education as well as community health, and different learning styles and she leaned heavily toward this whole Montessori thing, which is influenced by watching what a child is interested in from a young age, and then letting that curve and shape how they learn and grow and develop. And I think that’s where we kind of are currently. What I hold to be true for her is that she has this worth in Christ, but I hold to be true that she also has an eye to see how God sees the world, how He sees her. But at the same time, that’s kind of, that’s my limit. Other than that, I’m just gonna say, I’m asking God. You know? What is she interested in? I’m a new parent, we’re a year, we’re 14 months into this thing, and so I’m significantly more questioning than I am answering right now. And it’s wanting to know who she is, you know? I feel like, and this my weird, not like, awkward, Calvinist, predestination kind of conversation, but I do think that God knew her before she was born. And I do think that He has an intent and a dream and a plan and a hope for who she is going to be. And so my prayer is lot more on, “God, teach me who this kid is and who you’re calling her to be,” as opposed to “make her X, Y, or Z.”
CM: I think my last question is, coming back to your art, and wondering, you’ve kind of established your craft, and you’ve kind of had, kind of, a first really good run in your career, as a spoken word poet. And I mean, also, I say career, but kind of your vocation
ER: Your calling
CM: it’s kind of a deep sense of calling to what God is doing in your life and how you’re giving yourself completely to that. Where do you see that going? I guess, what are you hopeful for your art? And then what are you afraid of within it? Where do you really want to go, but you’re maybe, but you’re not quite ready to put it in a poem, put it out into the world yet?
LA: That’s good. On the first part of your question, where I it to go is kind of twofold. I would love to not just create poetry, but to create space for other poets, or other people who feel like they have similar giftedness to be able to share their content as well. So just been having conversations with different artists, different, whether it’s spoken word artists or rappers or whatever it is, people who feel that their particular craft isn’t welcome in a worship environment. I just want to begin conversations and hopefully a platform to where whatever your gifted at can find a home in a way that’s edifying and worshipful and conducive to a worship spaces. I think worship looks significantly different than it did in Jesus’s day currently. I think it’s gonna look significantly different as this next generation comes, and so if my voice and my skill set or whatever can be helpful in creating space for people, to offer their gifts as well, then I’d love to do that. So, my hope is that i can not only encourage other folks to write, but also we can work on creating, maybe, new platforms for how we can all share content as well. So that would be my hope for poetry. Also I low-key wanna become Kanye West’s ghostwriter, as far as like rap stuff goes. Praying that happens one day.
ER: Well, maybe if I develop my rap career, you and I can work on that. We can do that together. That can be a joint project for us one day.
LA: Come on.
ER: Man, Lo, it has been great to talk to you. For folks who are listening and that you're interested in some of his spoken word pieces, our show notes are gonna be filled with those, so that you can find those and listen to them. I’m looking at Cody, I’m assuming that’s gonna be in the… he’s nodding at me. It’s gonna be in the show notes for you to just go and hear and listen, and let it speak to you. So, Lo, thank you for your time today.
LA: Man, blessings, man. I appreciate it. It was fun.
CM: Thanks a lot, Lo.